The Good, The Bad, and the Ugly - Chargers

[scharm]

 

All it would really take is for Dalton to heat up, Flacco-esque. Obviously he is capable of it. And honestly the rest of our team is so good that he doesn't even have to light the world on fire.

 

Agree.    

 

Just as fans we have to recognize which path we are on and certain amount of love goes more to the other teams that are on the other path.

[Jamie_B]

Yeah I'd add Jay to the bad list now that I think about it, the lack of use of the TEs yesterday was frustrating

[scharm]

 

 

I think the biggest thing is just being smart about the passing game.  Dalton needs to be better, but Gruden can help simplify things.  More playaction now that the running game is heating up.  Start calling bootlegs that set up easy throws to the TE's and RB's.  More bubble screens and plays designed to let the playmakers make plays.  

 

Gresham and Eifert only combined for 4 targets yesterday.  They needs to start letting these guys be playmakers.

 

 

It's not a good thing when the Bengals claim they are a West Coast Offense, and I think I can count the number of bootlegs called on the season on 2 hands.

 

Another Big thing is the turnovers they aren't all Dalton.    Must cut them down somehow. 

 

During the broadcast as critical as Lap can be critical it's clear that he doesn't agree with some of the offensive scheme and it's been a theme of his for weeks.

 

Basically doesn't like the passive run scheme that mirror delays/draws.   He clearly love the downhill style and I think he has a point.

[Bengals1181]

 

Another Big thing is the turnovers they aren't all Dalton.    Must cut them down somehow. 

 

During the broadcast as critical as Lap can be critical it's clear that he doesn't agree with some of the offensive scheme and it's been a theme of his for weeks.

 

Basically doesn't like the passive run scheme that mirror delays/draws.   He clearly love the downhill style and I think he has a point.

 

 

Green took the blame for yesterday's.  I don't know that he's telling the truth (said he didn't run deep enough, IMO Dalton just chucked it up as he was about to get leveled), but if he is, that's now 5 that are on him.  

 

But you're right, they aren't all on Dalton, and that's why I don't consider the Miami game one of Dalton's bad games.  The pick 6 was straight up ugly, but the other 2 weren't his fault.  Toss in over 60% completions and 338yds passing.  

 

 

In the first half of San Diego, the playcalling was as bland as it could be considering they were coming off a bye.

[coup000]

We had 10 drives on offense.

 

Going from best to worst...

 

3 scores

1 drive ended inside the 5 as the game was ending

1 fumble by BJGE when in scoring position

1 drive was 2 running plays and a screen to try to run out the first half

2 3 and outs (missed both of those drives live so not sure what happened there)

1 intentional grounding call where I think Andy got too jumpy, looked like Eifert may have come free

1 bad int

 

We scored or were in a position to score on 5 of 10 drives. I honestly have no idea what the stats are, but I think scoring on 50% of your drives is a pretty solid clip.

[WRAPradio]

I guess I don't understand how real NFL experts, who watch hours of tape on every QB, say Dalton is struggling and we sit here on this site saying he's really not that bad.  I'd love Dalton to light it up, but it's not happening for whatever reasons.  I don't think it's all Andy's fault, but I do think more of it is on him than some allow themselves to believe.  I've been swayed to throw Gruden into the bad mix, but ultimately Andy is on the field making decisions and for the majority of the game, he's not getting it done.  I love how he's able to bounce back and he made a great throw on the arrow to Hawk.  We got the win and for today that's what matters.

 

Good: 

Running game and sticking with it

The defense.  We gave up some yards, but not points

Whit at guard

Second half Andy

Burfict...he continues to impress me every single game

Kirk's pick and Reggie's forced fumble...both on Gates

 

Bad:

First half Andy

First half Jay

Devon Still

 

Ugly:

None really...this team is resilient if nothing else

[Bgal]

 
Agree.    
 
Just as fans we have to recognize which path we are on and certain amount of love goes more to the other teams that are on the other path.

Love from who exactly?

What path? We're on the bad ass m-effing defense path and I wouldn't have it any other way. Golden boy QBs can rack up the stats all day until they play our bad ass defense, get shown up by Dalton because their defense isn't as good, and LOSE. Aaron Rodger, Tom Brady, Philip Rivers... They all LOST. Why? Because we decided not to play the "search, hope, and pray for a franchise QB "game and instead invest in the defense and let that be our heart and soul. This team knows Dalton isn't a golden boy and they don't give a fuck.

[scharm]

We had 10 drives on offense.

 

Going from best to worst...

 

3 scores

1 drive ended inside the 5 as the game was ending

1 fumble by BJGE when in scoring position

1 drive was 2 running plays and a screen to try to run out the first half

2 3 and outs (missed both of those drives live so not sure what happened there)

1 intentional grounding call where I think Andy got too jumpy, looked like Eifert may have come free

1 bad int

 

We scored or were in a position to score on 5 of 10 drives. I honestly have no idea what the stats are, but I think scoring on 50% of your drives is a pretty solid clip.

 

Intentional grounding  BJGE was held out of the backfield.   Not sure if it was missed holding penalty but that's were Dalton wanted to go.

[scharm]

Love from who exactly?

What path? We're on the bad ass m-effing defense path and I wouldn't have it any other way. Golden boy QBs can rack up the stats all day until they play our bad ass defense, get shown up by Dalton because their defense isn't as good, and LOSE. Aaron Rodger, Tom Brady, Philip Rivers... They all LOST. Why? Because we decided not to play the "search, hope, and pray for a franchise QB "game and instead invest in the defense and let that be our heart and soul. This team knows Dalton isn't a golden boy and they don't give a fuck.

 

I think you answered your own question.

[Bengals1181]

I guess I don't understand how real NFL experts, who watch hours of tape on every QB, say Dalton is struggling and we sit here on this site saying he's really not that bad.  I'd love Dalton to light it up, but it's not happening for whatever reasons.  I don't think it's all Andy's fault, but I do think more of it is on him than some allow themselves to believe.  I've been swayed to throw Gruden into the bad mix, but ultimately Andy is on the field making decisions and for the majority of the game, he's not getting it done.  I love how he's able to bounce back and he made a great throw on the arrow to Hawk.  We got the win and for today that's what matters.

 

Good: 

Running game and sticking with it

The defense.  We gave up some yards, but not points

Whit at guard

Second half Andy

Burfict...he continues to impress me every single game

Kirk's pick and Reggie's forced fumble...both on Gates

 

Bad:

First half Andy

First half Jay

Devon Still

 

Ugly:

None really...this team is resilient if nothing else

 

 

who says Dalton isn't struggling?  He's on the worst 3 game skid of his career.

 

 

And if we're being quite accurate, there's a dozen or so posters here who watch Bengals games more closely than your average analyst.  

 

Most analysts only watch a handful of plays from a game, and they make judgements absent of the comments we as fans get from the coaches and players after the fact.

 

 

A great example, the first INT in Miami.  Every analyst under the sun criticized Dalton for throwing an out route behind the WR.  After the game, Gruden and Green, in separate interviews, state that it was a comeback route that Green ran too wide.  

 

So yes, sometimes analysts get it wrong.

[|SF2|]

 

 

did you think that in October?

 

 

Dalton wasn't that good yesterday, but if we're being honest, he was 2-3 throws, that I'm sure he'd like back, from being very good yesterday.  Let's not act like it was an epic bad performance.

It isn't October, its December. Time and time again our defense is being forced to win games for us.  At some point we will play a team that doesn't turn the ball over a lot and is decent on offense.  Last year's playoff game is a perfect example.  Our defense kept us in the game by bending  but not breaking but the offense simply did nothing .  137 passing yards on 30 attempts will NOT beat a decent playoff calibre team. 

 

Keep in mind our defense scored 7 of the 13 points in the Wild Card game and Andy threw a pick to JoJo deep in our end that the defense minimized to 3 points.  It was an absolutely horrible showing by the offense last year.   Great QBs have bad games.  Great QBs bounce back the next week usually.

 

You can say what you want about NE barely beating Houston.  Fact is Brady put the game on his shoulders and won that game yesterday.  He threw up 34 against the 3rd ranked defense in the league on the road and the second ranked pass defense.     I am not asking Andy to be Brady or Drew Brees but I don't expect him to come out of the bye looking completely lost the first half against a terrible defensive team. 

 

They just had a bye week and the offense didn't get much fixed.   Worse yet, according to reports, the offensive lineman had to ask Gruden to run the ball more.  The cold hard fact is Gruden completely dumbed down the offense in the second half to take advantage of a weak opponent and poor play by his QB the first half.  He won't have that luxury in the playoffs most likely.   

 

We haven't won a playoff game in 23 years.   Yeah, our defense may get us a victory in the first round but at some point Andy has to do his part. It isn't 2000.  The defenses have been handicapped so its unrealistic to believe our defense can hold a high powered offense to under 21 during the playoffs. At some point the offense has to show up for most of the game.

[JBandJoeyV]

I guess I don't understand how real NFL experts, who watch hours of tape on every QB, say Dalton is struggling and we sit here on this site saying he's really not that bad.  I'd love Dalton to light it up, but it's not happening for whatever reasons.  I don't think it's all Andy's fault, but I do think more of it is on him than some allow themselves to believe.  I've been swayed to throw Gruden into the bad mix, but ultimately Andy is on the field making decisions and for the majority of the game, he's not getting it done.  I love how he's able to bounce back and he made a great throw on the arrow to Hawk.  We got the win and for today that's what matters.
 
Good: 
Running game and sticking with it
The defense.  We gave up some yards, but not points
Whit at guard
Second half Andy
Burfict...he continues to impress me every single game
Kirk's pick and Reggie's forced fumble...both on Gates
 
Bad:
First half Andy
First half Jay
Devon Still
 
Ugly:
None really...this team is resilient if nothing else

No one is saying dalton isn't struggling or that he hasn't had some really bad stretches. What some are saying though is that there are ways to make it easier for him to improve and that he has shown enough in his three seasons to make us think the last couple games shouldn't be expected to continue for an extended period. Ie when he had a bad first half he bounced back and had a really solid second half. Hopefully that half will get him back on track.

My opinion hasn't really changed. I still believe dalton wasn't as good as his stats were in October and he isn't as bad as his stats were in November. Right now he is as good as the back of his baseball card says, meaning he is a mid to maybe upper 80s qb. I expected more this year, ie low 90s or so but this bad stretch has hurt him. I think we can win a Super Bowl if he plays somewhere in the 80-90 range in the playoffs. Above that would make it even easier.

[WRAPradio]

 

 

who says Dalton isn't struggling?  He's on the worst 3 game skid of his career.

 

 

And if we're being quite accurate, there's a dozen or so posters here who watch Bengals games more closely than your average analyst.  

 

Most analysts only watch a handful of plays from a game, and they make judgements absent of the comments we as fans get from the coaches and players after the fact.

 

 

A great example, the first INT in Miami.  Every analyst under the sun criticized Dalton for throwing an out route behind the WR.  After the game, Gruden and Green, in separate interviews, state that it was a comeback route that Green ran too wide.  

 

So yes, sometimes analysts get it wrong.

 

I can't disagree with that.  Not sure I completely agree, but good points none the less. 

[Bengals1181]

It isn't October, its December. Time and time again our defense is being forced to win games for us.  At some point we will play a team that doesn't turn the ball over a lot and is decent on offense.  Last year's playoff game is a perfect example.  Our defense kept us in the game by bending but not breaking but the offense simply did nothing.  137 passing yards on 30 attempts will NOT beat a decent playoff calibre team. 

 

They just had a bye week and the offense didn't get much fixed.   Worse yet, according to reports, the offensive lineman had to ask Gruden to run the ball more.  The cold hard fact is Gruden completely dumbed down the offense in the second half to take advantage of a weak opponent and poor play by his QB the first half.  He won't have that luxury in the playoffs most likely.   

 

We haven't won a playoff game in 23 years.   Yeah, our defense may get us a victory in the first round but at some point Andy has to do his part. It isn't 2000.  The defenses have been handicapped so its unrealistic to believe our defense can hold a high powered offense to under 21 during the playoffs. At some point the offense has to show up for most of the game.

 

 

it doesn't matter when it is really.  It was a basic question.  During the hot streak, did you think Dalton could be counted on to win a game in crunch time against a good team?

 

If the answer is yes, why can't the passing game get back to that?

 

I can't disagree with that.  Not sure I completely agree, but good points none the less. 

 

 

take solace in this:  for as bad as the passing game has been the last 3 games, the Bengals still won 2 of those 3 games.

[SouthPaw]

I guess I don't understand how real NFL experts, who watch hours of tape on every QB, say Dalton is struggling and we sit here on this site saying he's really not that bad.  I'd love Dalton to light it up, but it's not happening for whatever reasons.  I don't think it's all Andy's fault, but I do think more of it is on him than some allow themselves to believe.  I've been swayed to throw Gruden into the bad mix, but ultimately Andy is on the field making decisions and for the majority of the game, he's not getting it done.  I love how he's able to bounce back and he made a great throw on the arrow to Hawk.  We got the win and for today that's what matters.

 

Good: 

Running game and sticking with it

The defense.  We gave up some yards, but not points

Whit at guard

Second half Andy

Burfict...he continues to impress me every single game

Kirk's pick and Reggie's forced fumble...both on Gates

 

Bad:

First half Andy

First half Jay

Devon Still

 

Ugly:

None really...this team is resilient if nothing else

 

Its called homeristic fandom.  I have said it before, AJ Green is a team player, he will shoulder blame where it needs to be shouldered no doubt.  He will also say some off the wall type shit, like saying yesterday's pick was his fault, when everyone damn well knows it wasnt.  Dalton just launched and it sailed on him.  Dalton did turn it around to have a pretty damn effective second half.  However, he can not continue to play the way he has and get away with it.  If the run game continues to develop that will certainly help and he may have some more success as a result of that, which is what he needs.  At this moment, if it werent for the defense, we would all be cringing at the thought of rolling into potential big games down the road with him as the starting quarterback.  My brother in law(raiders fan), who has no bias one way or another, except for the fact that i am a huge Bengals fan, was watching yesterdays game with me.  Without being provoked, he said, "i hate to say it B, but they might need another quarterback."  He played the game his entire life(quarterback) has a very savvy football mind and generated that opinion on his own.  He also brought up other points about play calling as well, which increased the validity of the comment for me, because he demonstrated that he wasnt just "picking" on Dalton.  Everyone else can see his play for what it is and have the ability to be honest about it.  I think this team has tremendous talent and heart and that may carry them very far.  But with the current situation on offense, that talent, heart, and the prognostication of going very far may become short lived at any moment as well.  Just being honest. 

[JBandJoeyV]

 
 
it doesn't matter when it is really.  It was a basic question.  During the hot streak, did you think Dalton could be counted on to win a game in crunch time against a good team?
 
If the answer is yes, why can't the passing game get back to that?

 
 
take solace in this:  for as bad as the passing game has been the last 3 games, the Bengals still won 2 of those 3 games.

I would agree (and my guess is that you would as well) that if dalton and the O play like this in January we won't make it to the Super Bowl.

The difference though is some people think our offense can still get better and play better in the final quarter of the season and the playoffs. Others think we are already done for based on a quarter of the season stretch where our offense hasn't been great.

Who knows who is wrong or right, but this offense has shown the ability to perform well over and extended stretch. For the next few weeks I'm gonna discuss how I think we can get our offense on track and what needs to be done to win in the playoffs. If the offense doesn't get on track and we lose in the playoffs cause of that, then I'll start to think more long term on what needs to be done.

That's just how I'm looking at it though others are free to look differently. But I don't think those of us that think like that should be bashed for it.

[Bengals1181]

I would agree (and my guess is that you would as well) that if dalton and the O play like this in January we won't make it to the Super Bowl.

The difference though is some people think our offense can still get better and play better in the final quarter of the season and the playoffs. Others think we are already done for based on a quarter of the season stretch where our offense hasn't been great.

Who knows who is wrong or right, but this offense has shown the ability to perform well over and extended stretch. For the next few weeks I'm gonna discuss how I think we can get our offense on track and what needs to be done to win in the playoffs. If the offense doesn't get on track and we lose in the playoffs cause of that, then I'll start to think more long term on what needs to be done.

That's just how I'm looking at it though others are free to look differently. But I don't think those of us that think like that should be bashed for it.

 

 

I think that's the main thing.  The passing game kind of sucks right now, for a couple different reasons.  The difference on this site comes down to, some think it won't stay this sucky, some do.  

[Oldcat]

 

I wouldn't call it certain doom, but it's not looking good right now.  I think you've hit the nail on the head.  Some people live in the moment and are ecstatic every time we win no matter what. There are others who are happy with the win, but have a more long-term view.  Nothing wrong with either, but those who are looking ahead shouldn't criticize those who are looking forward.

 

I think that isn't it at all.  These people have been overlooking the good play for three years now and I am tired of it.  They aren't any wiser now that they are backed down to crying that we can't win the AFC championship game with Dalton when they started by saying we would be 0-16 with him before he played a single game.

[scharm]

Last year I took heat for saying after the Denver game Dalton gave up on a throw in which it look liked he just tossed it up for an int.   San Diego interception reminded me of that.

 

 

There are a whole bunch of manufactured stats that will suggest Andy doesn't struggle with deep throwing.   There are some on here that suggest firing the o-line coach and drafting a center is the key.  On this board there is considerable analysis it seems on the "pocket" and list very long of reasons why the Int happened.

 

To me it appears that Dalton doesn't have command on his deep throws at all and isn't consistently accurate as he needs to be underneath in order to make up for that.

 

Throws to Hawkins, AJ Green TD, and the AJ catch late in the game are things of beauty.  

 

But that's what a mid-80s passer looks like and that's what they are.     My suggestion is roll with it and make sure the surrounding cast is near as good as it currently is.

 

The window is open and I'm not sure it's that easy to stop or extend the window being open to hold up for Johnny TD QB to come along.     Of course rolling with Dalton may force you to miss the window.

 

Tough deal.    

[Oldcat]

Since my quoting on my surface doesn't work for some reason

 

@thurman

 

We beat a patriots team @home without gronk ill take that but any team missing their number one receiver is going to struggle, we would if we lost AJ.

 

That said there isn't a team in the AFC I'm afraid of if we play them in 'Nati, on the road that's not the case, we are dominate at home, on the road we are mediocre. Unless the seeding somehow changes, if we ended up playing them in foxborough, you'd have to be a homer to think it would end up the same.

 

Last year we were 6-2 on the road, mediocre at home.  I don't know that this is a fundamental flaw with the team rather than happenstance.

[SouthPaw]

I would agree (and my guess is that you would as well) that if dalton and the O play like this in January we won't make it to the Super Bowl.

The difference though is some people think our offense can still get better and play better in the final quarter of the season and the playoffs. Others think we are already done for based on a quarter of the season stretch where our offense hasn't been great.

Who knows who is wrong or right, but this offense has shown the ability to perform well over and extended stretch. For the next few weeks I'm gonna discuss how I think we can get our offense on track and what needs to be done to win in the playoffs. If the offense doesn't get on track and we lose in the playoffs cause of that, then I'll start to think more long term on what needs to be done.

That's just how I'm looking at it though others are free to look differently. But I don't think those of us that think like that should be bashed for it.

 

Good and very reasonable post. 

[Bengals1181]

Last year I took heat for saying after the Denver game Dalton gave up on a throw in which it look liked he just tossed it up for an int.   San Diego interception reminded me of that.

 

 

There are a whole bunch of manufactured stats that will suggest Andy doesn't struggle with deep throwing.   There are some on here that suggest firing the o-line coach and drafting a center is the key.  On this board there is considerable analysis it seems on the "pocket" and list very long of reasons why the Int happened.

 

To me it appears that Dalton doesn't have command on his deep throws at all and isn't consistently accurate as he needs to be underneath in order to make up for that.

 

Throws to Hawkins, AJ Green TD, and the AJ catch late in the game are things of beauty.  

 

But that's what a mid-80s passer looks like and that's what they are.     

 

 

I don't think he gave up on the San Diego INT.  I think he just saw the DL bearing down on him and chucked it up to AJ hoping AJ would make a play.  He probably should have just thrown it out of bounds.  

 

Don't remember the Denver one specifically (though remember your comment at the time), but I think the DL charging was the catalyst here.

 

In general, throwing it up deep to AJ isn't an awful idea. In this case, it seems he just threw it 3-4yds too far.

 

If they had connected, we'd be sitting here talking about how great of a play it was.

[Oldcat]

 

 

Green took the blame for yesterday's.  I don't know that he's telling the truth (said he didn't run deep enough, IMO Dalton just chucked it up as he was about to get leveled), but if he is, that's now 5 that are on him.  

 

But you're right, they aren't all on Dalton, and that's why I don't consider the Miami game one of Dalton's bad games.  The pick 6 was straight up ugly, but the other 2 weren't his fault.  Toss in over 60% completions and 338yds passing.  

 

 

In the first half of San Diego, the playcalling was as bland as it could be considering they were coming off a bye.

 

It seemed to me that Green certainly could have contended for the ball more if he had cared to.  He has seemed strangely passive at times when in traffic instead of attacking the ball.  Sure the pass was overthrown some, but it hung up a while too.  Maybe his ribs were still hurting.

[Oldcat]

I guess I don't understand how real NFL experts, who watch hours of tape on every QB, say Dalton is struggling and we sit here on this site saying he's really not that bad.  I'd love Dalton to light it up, but it's not happening for whatever reasons.  I don't think it's all Andy's fault, but I do think more of it is on him than some allow themselves to believe.  I've been swayed to throw Gruden into the bad mix, but ultimately Andy is on the field making decisions and for the majority of the game, he's not getting it done.  I love how he's able to bounce back and he made a great throw on the arrow to Hawk.  We got the win and for today that's what matters.

 

Good: 

Running game and sticking with it

The defense.  We gave up some yards, but not points

Whit at guard

Second half Andy

Burfict...he continues to impress me every single game

Kirk's pick and Reggie's forced fumble...both on Gates

 

Bad:

First half Andy

First half Jay

Devon Still

 

Ugly:

None really...this team is resilient if nothing else

 

Well the ultimate experts, from our point of view are his coaches and they say he isn't that bad too.  Not flawless, but not bad. 

[bengaled]

 

The thing is, when Dalton does something like that people act like he's the only QB who has ever done it, and he shouldn't even be on a NFL field. It's like people are blind to the fuck ups of other QBs, but the fuck ups by Dalton are all they can see.

 

 

oh and to think back to how many times i shook my head over carson palmer's high throws, where his receivers got blown up.