T-Dub Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 Yeah, the only thing Palmer managed to do was get the team to the playoffs with the 28th ranked defense. In his six years as the main starter on the Bengals (throw out the Fitzpatrick year) the defense averaged 20th in the league. In his first 4 years as the starter, the defense ranked 26th in the league. Lets see Andy Dalton even sniff the playoffs in that scenario particularly with the all pro caliber tight ends of Reggie Kelly, Dan Coats and Matt Schobel causing havoc downfield. Lets see him deal with Chad for a season. Not a Palmer fan but he was a much better QB before the elbow issue. Quit making excuses :ninja: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|kennethmw| Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 Yeah, the only thing Palmer managed to do was get the team to the playoffs with the 28th ranked defense. In his six years as the main starter on the Bengals (throw out the Fitzpatrick year) the defense averaged 20th in the league. In his first 4 years as the starter, the defense ranked 26th in the league. Lets see Andy Dalton even sniff the playoffs in that scenario particularly with the all pro caliber tight ends of Reggie Kelly, Dan Coats and Matt Schobel causing havoc downfield. Lets see him deal with Chad for a season. Not a Palmer fan but he was a much better QB before the elbow issue. Is that the Same defense that was 1st in interceptions, 6th in forced fumbles, and 13th in recovered fumbles? The one that created 44 turnovers to lead the league? The same team that caused 13 more turnovers than the best D that Andy has had? Is that the D you're talking about? Stats sure are a wonderful thing, aren't they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBandJoeyV Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 Palmer was better in 04-06 then dalton has been in 11-13. Hard to argue other wise. I think 11-13 dalton is better than 07-10 Palmer though. Or at least close. If you put the 2005 Oline and 2005 Carson on the 2013 bengals, that team would be sick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orange 'n Black Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 Carson was top 3 in the league in 2005. After the ACL he was still easily top 10. We all know what happened after the elbow. He had a really dominant O-line in his best years, and of course Chad/TJ/Henry, Rudi, and Jeremi. Bob Bratkowski didn't even know tight ends could catch so I don't know how that's an argument :25: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|SF2| Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 Is that the Same defense that was 1st in interceptions, 6th in forced fumbles, and 13th in recovered fumbles? The one that created 44 turnovers to lead the league? The same team that caused 13 more turnovers than the best D that Andy has had? Is that the D you're talking about? Stats sure are a wonderful thing, aren't they? Same defense that was 22nd in points allowed and 28th in sacks. The 2005 defense managed 1 TD with all of those turnovers, this year's team had 6. The 2013 team had 33 takeaways of their own which is 11 less but you conveniently forgot Andy had 8 more ints than Carson did. 2005: Team offense: 2.31 points per drive Team defense: 1,82 points per drive allowed 2013 Team offense: 1.91 points per drive Team defense: 1.39 points per drive allowed Then there is simply the eyeball test. Carson, before the injuries and vaginal strain, was simply a better QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|kennethmw| Posted February 13, 2014 Report Share Posted February 13, 2014 Same defense that was 22nd in points allowed and 28th in sacks. The 2005 defense managed 1 TD with all of those turnovers, this year's team had 6. The 2013 team had 33 takeaways of their own which is 11 less but you conveniently forgot Andy had 8 more ints than Carson did. 2005: Team offense: 2.31 points per drive Team defense: 1,82 points per drive allowed 2013 Team offense: 1.91 points per drive Team defense: 1.39 points per drive allowed Then there is simply the eyeball test. Carson, before the injuries and vaginal strain, was simply a better QB. Nobody is arguing that Carson was the better QB, hell, he was drafted #1 overall, you would hope that he would be better than the #35 drafted QB. My argument was you acting like Carson led that team all by himself with the suckiest defense in the Land. That D had a lot of talent, caused a ton of turnovers and put the O in position to be prolific. Carson also had a better line, and better skill position players. Palmer, just like Andy, didn't do it all by himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rumble In the Jungle Posted February 13, 2014 Report Share Posted February 13, 2014 Nobody is arguing that Carson was the better QB, hell, he was drafted #1 overall, you would hope that he would be better than the #35 drafted QB. My argument was you acting like Carson led that team all by himself with the suckiest defense in the Land. That D had a lot of talent, caused a ton of turnovers and put the O in position to be prolific. Carson also had a better line, and better skill position players. Palmer, just like Andy, didn't do it all by himself. Can't disagree with that. Only the D now is waaaay better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Bunghole| Posted February 13, 2014 Report Share Posted February 13, 2014 Can't disagree with that. Only the D now is waaaay better. But the offensive line Andy plays behind is worse than the one Carson played behind. At least until Richie Braham got his career ended, Willie got old, Levi's knees gave out and we replaced Steinbach with a revolving door. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bengals1181 Posted February 13, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 13, 2014 Lance McAlister @LanceMcAlister 24m What do you think of this analysis and ranking of Dalton by former Bears GM Jerry Angelo? http://www.thesidelineview.com/columns/nfl/former-bears-gm-jerry-angelo-rates-every-quarterback-2013-nfl-season … #Bengals ranks him 17th. below foles, stafford and cutler, ahead of eli, flacco and griffin Top character and work habits. Is book smart, with average football IQ. He’s in his comfort level when everything around him is working. He struggles when it’s all on him. His accuracy isn’t as sharp as his ability to read coverage. Part of his problem is he was over used. Too many attempts for a pedestrian QB. You can like him, but can’t love him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldcat Posted February 13, 2014 Report Share Posted February 13, 2014 Can't disagree with that. Only the D now is waaaay better. More stubborn for sure. They do need to generate more turnovers than they do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted February 13, 2014 Report Share Posted February 13, 2014 But the offensive line Andy plays behind is worse than the one Carson played behind. At least until Richie Braham got his career ended, Willie got old, Levi's knees gave out and we replaced Steinbach with a revolving door. I'm not going to argue that 2013's Oline is as good as 2005's, but I will suggest they are closer than some might want to admit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted February 13, 2014 Report Share Posted February 13, 2014 Lance McAlister @LanceMcAlister 24m What do you think of this analysis and ranking of Dalton by former Bears GM Jerry Angelo? http://www.thesidelineview.com/columns/nfl/former-bears-gm-jerry-angelo-rates-every-quarterback-2013-nfl-season … #Bengals ranks him 17th. below foles, stafford and cutler, ahead of eli, flacco and griffin Completely agree with this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squirrlnutz Posted February 13, 2014 Report Share Posted February 13, 2014 ...2013's Oline is as good as 2005's, but I will suggest they are close some might want to admit. Pass blocking probably, run blocking no way. Rudi ran for 1500 (iirc) and Perry was no stiff either. I doubt many would argue Rudi was a "dynamic" back. They could blow people off the line. I think Palmer in his prime was a much better thrower than Andy. But with the trend towards spread offense in the nfl I think Dalton is a good fit, and if given the run game Palmer had, IMO, we'd have already experienced more success in the post season. And to the others, I think its worth noting that Palmer wasn't able to overcome shitty defenses in 04, 06, 07. And leading the league in generating turnovers in 05 is nothing to bat your eye at. In 09 the D was #4. They played terrible and Carson didnt play well against the Jets either. A Prototypical Franchise QB is not the most important requirement for postseason success. Either you accept that or you explain away Carsons lack of success like the Dalton defenders you despise. The whole team has to be good enough for 16 games to get there, and all 3 areas of the roster have to play effectively once you're in the dance. That hasn't happend under Marvin; with Elite QB and run game but poor D, elite QB and competent D but no run game, rookie offense and dominant D, exolosive/inconsistent offense and quality D. There is one consistent variable here and its not Andy. Hence I'm still confident this roster with its current makeup can have more success in the postseason if they play well when gameday arrives. I'm hopeful the new coordinators can be the difference that gets us there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|SF2| Posted February 13, 2014 Report Share Posted February 13, 2014 Nobody is arguing that Carson was the better QB, hell, he was drafted #1 overall, you would hope that he would be better than the #35 drafted QB. My argument was you acting like Carson led that team all by himself with the suckiest defense in the Land. That D had a lot of talent, caused a ton of turnovers and put the O in position to be prolific. Carson also had a better line, and better skill position players. Palmer, just like Andy, didn't do it all by himself.Actually, somebody was arguing that Palmer was worse than Andy, that is what started this portion of the thread. No, Carson didn't do it all by himself but had to do more to win than Andy. He also had a fucking three ring circus to deal with. That said, poor play by your QB in any game is typically a loss. It is the one position on the field that can do or cause the most damage by far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted February 13, 2014 Report Share Posted February 13, 2014 Pass blocking probably, run blocking no way. Rudi ran for 1500 (iirc) and Perry was no stiff either. I doubt many would argue Rudi was a "dynamic" back. They could blow people off the line. I think Palmer in his prime was a much better thrower than Andy. But with the trend towards spread offense in the nfl I think Dalton is a good fit, and if given the run game Palmer had, IMO, we'd have already experienced more success in the post season. And to the others, I think its worth noting that Palmer wasn't able to overcome shitty defenses in 04, 06, 07. And leading the league in generating turnovers in 05 is nothing to bat your eye at. In 09 the D was #4. They played terrible and Carson didnt play well against the Jets either. A Prototypical Franchise QB is not the most important requirement for postseason success. Either you accept that or you explain away Carsons lack of success like the Dalton defenders you despise. The whole team has to be good enough for 16 games to get there, and all 3 areas of the roster have to play effectively once you're in the dance. That hasn't happend under Marvin; with Elite QB and run game but poor D, elite QB and competent D but no run game, rookie offense and dominant D, exolosive/inconsistent offense and quality D. There is one consistent variable here and its not Andy. Hence I'm still confident this roster with its current makeup can have more success in the postseason if they play well when gameday arrives. I'm hopeful the new coordinators can be the difference that gets us there. I agree Rudi was not a dynamic back however he was far and away better than BJGE. However I would say that Gio is better than Perry so the run game is a push I had to read that 3xs and Im still not sure, or at least Im hoping I didnt read that, your not suggesting Andy is elite? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|SF2| Posted February 13, 2014 Report Share Posted February 13, 2014 I agree Rudi was not a dynamic back however he was far and away better than BJGE. However I would say that Gio is better than Perry so the run game is a push I had to read that 3xs and Im still not sure, or at least Im hoping I didnt read that, your not suggesting Andy is elite? The 2005 team got 2155 yards total offense from its two running backs (includes receptions) The 2013 team got 1987 yards. Not that much of a difference. Gruden sticking with BJGE too much is a better topic anyways. Gio was a much more dangerous weapon since he is an excellent receiver and open field threat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Harley| Posted February 13, 2014 Report Share Posted February 13, 2014 Lance McAlister @LanceMcAlister 24m What do you think of this analysis and ranking of Dalton by former Bears GM Jerry Angelo? http://www.thesidelineview.com/columns/nfl/former-bears-gm-jerry-angelo-rates-every-quarterback-2013-nfl-season … #Bengals ranks him 17th. below foles, stafford and cutler, ahead of eli, flacco and griffin If this is based on the 2013 season only, no way Rodgers deserves to be at #3. Conversely, Nick Foles played like a stud and deserves to be around 5 or 6 in the top group. #17 is about right for Dalton - middle of the pack with high highs and low lows averaging out to be an average amongst starters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bengals1181 Posted February 13, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 13, 2014 If this is based on the 2013 season only, no way Rodgers deserves to be at #3. Conversely, Nick Foles played like a stud and deserves to be around 5 or 6 in the top group. #17 is about right for Dalton - middle of the pack with high highs and low lows averaging out to be an average amongst starters. I don't believe its based on 2013 performance, it just includes any QB who took a snap in 2013. IMO he's got Foles way too high. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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