bengaled Posted May 23, 2014 Report Share Posted May 23, 2014 this article is a year old, but applies even more today. it's the reason why we drafted gio bernard last year, then followed it up with another 2nd round investment in hill this year. http://presnapreads.com/2013/04/15/benjarvus-green-ellis-cincinnati-bengals-running-back-hurt-offense-in-2012/#more-423 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bengals1181 Posted May 23, 2014 Report Share Posted May 23, 2014 Gio didn't hit the holes like he should have either....which is typical of a rookie. He 'danced' behind the line a bit too much. Bengals didn't go out and draft OLine at all aside from Center due to theirs having lost his legs and thus, his effectiveness. They did draft a RB though, very high so I would say the Bengals choice in draft picks would beg to differ with your theory. as always, the answer is always somewhere in the middle. Gio didn't hit holes hard enough last year. definitely true. He was a dancer. BJGE hit holes hard, but lacked speed and vision. The OL itself was inconsistent in opening up holes. And of course the playcalling has been discussed at length. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldcat Posted May 23, 2014 Report Share Posted May 23, 2014 this article is a year old, but applies even more today. it's the reason why we drafted gio bernard last year, then followed it up with another 2nd round investment in hill this year. http://presnapreads.com/2013/04/15/benjarvus-green-ellis-cincinnati-bengals-running-back-hurt-offense-in-2012/#more-423 I agree BJGE isn't the fastest back. But a lot of arguing that he must be replaced because he got tackled on the 1 after a 50 yard gain versus making it all the way is a bit petty. You'd do better to show me a 10 yard gain reduced to a 2 yard gain, because that's where it would really matter for a back of his style. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alleycat Posted May 23, 2014 Report Share Posted May 23, 2014 Gio didn't hit the holes like he should have either....which is typical of a rookie. He 'danced' behind the line a bit too much. Bengals didn't go out and draft OLine at all aside from Center due to theirs having lost his legs and thus, his effectiveness. They did draft a RB though, very high so I would say the Bengals choice in draft picks would beg to differ with your theory. Oh yeah, aside from that, you know, little minor bit of them CUTTING THEIR STARTING CENTER, yeah, they didn't really do much did they? And this is a guy who, right up until that point, they constantly went out on a limb to support. Then, after drafing his replacement, Alexander tells the world he's been looking for this kind of Center for years. That doesn't look to good for the state of where the interior O-Line was, I'll tell you. And as for the draft, well, let's see...Right now they have two 1st rounders, 2 second rounders (1 very high (whit)), and two more fourth rounders in the mix. As far as NFL O-Lines go, that's a lot of draft power to be throwing at the position. I said this before the draft, and I'll stand by it now. The reason the draft put us in a quandry is that we were unlikely to see sufficient LT talent with our first pick, and certainly would not with our second. Next, in the second round the guys that were likely available were RG (e.g. Gabe Jackson) prospects and not traditional LG types, particularly if you consider Hue's tendency to run screens and needing OL who are light on their feet (IMO, this is what the Newhouse signing reflects as much as anything, as that was one of his big assets coming out). So at the second round level we were faced with really reaching for a LT, reaching for a RG to play LG, or taking what would arguably be the best back in the draft. I think the decision, though not one that I loved (my need for OL upgrade has been loud and clear), was easy for the team. And so I maintain to hold out hope that this mysterious mister Hawkinson we've been hearing about materializes, or that Bodine is as good as Alexander hopes and Pollak can slide to LG... Now as for BJGE specifically, he certainly loses you some yards on the breakaways, but the guy is also good for an extra yard or two every time he falls down. I'd have to think that's probably worth more to a Marvin Lewis, although I'm sure he'd rather be seeing first contact a couple of yards past the LOS rather than at or before it. But the real changing of the guard, IMO, is coming because BJGE has shown over the last few seasons that he simply isn't a competent receiver, and after Gio showed us what exploiting such can do for an offense it would be silly not to stack your backfield with guys who can at least offer the threat - whether Gio goes down, or when he needs a breather, or to even compliment him when he's on the field (and split out wide, say). In short, when BJGE was on the field the offense was tipping it's hand too far, and that's going to make things hard for any RB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HairOnFire Posted May 23, 2014 Report Share Posted May 23, 2014 Since signing BJGE they drafted 2 RBs in the second round. What do you know that they don't? BJGE isn't on the ropes for his roster position because his YPC is solely being damaged by interior line play. He's on the ropes because he's going to be a FA next season and vastly cheaper alternatives were available, this year or the next. I'd think that would be a point you'd grasp instantly knowing as I do that you've made it yourself in a million Dalton threads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted May 23, 2014 Report Share Posted May 23, 2014 The only problem with the oline is their ability to get to and block at the 2nd level. BJGE is the larger issue because he is simply nothing more than a 3rd down back that's it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldcat Posted May 23, 2014 Report Share Posted May 23, 2014 The only problem with the oline is their ability to get to and block at the 2nd level. Only if the second level is in the offensive backfield. I see too many plays where Gio and BJGE get hit or stopped behind the line to think that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alleycat Posted May 23, 2014 Report Share Posted May 23, 2014 He's on the ropes because he's going to be a FA next season and vastly cheaper alternatives were available, this year or the next. Well, yeah, there's always that too... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khatmandude Posted May 23, 2014 Report Share Posted May 23, 2014 The only problem with the oline is their ability to get to and block at the 2nd level. BJGE is the larger issue because he is simply nothing more than a 3rd down back that's it. Only problem is, BJGE's skillset doesnt equate to 3rd down back. The primary focus for a 3rd down back is to be able to block a blitzer. Secondary is to be able to catch the ball, and finally to run the ball. Unfortunately, he's a horrible pass catcher. He's a mentor at this point in his career and not much more from here on out considering how the NFL views RBs and the position in general these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HairOnFire Posted May 23, 2014 Report Share Posted May 23, 2014 Only if the second level is in the offensive backfield. I see too many plays where Gio and BJGE get hit or stopped behind the line to think that. Outstanding backs from Dillon, to Rudi, to Benson have all had trouble topping 4.0 per rush here for the very reason noted above. So at the second round level we were faced with really reaching for a LT, reaching for a RG to play LG, or taking what would arguably be the best back in the draft. Kony Ealy at 55 made buttloads of sense to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dex Posted May 23, 2014 Report Share Posted May 23, 2014 Outstanding backs from Dillon, to Rudi, to Benson have all had trouble topping 4.0 per rush here for the very reason noted above. Kony Ealy at 55 made buttloads of sense to me. If you believe the Bengals front office, they came far closer to taking Will Clarke at 55 than they did Ealy. Clarke does fit the Bengals DE prototype height/body type better. Might be the biggest indication yet that Guenther will be following the Zimmer model pretty closely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted May 23, 2014 Report Share Posted May 23, 2014 Only if the second level is in the offensive backfield. I see too many plays where Gio and BJGE get hit or stopped behind the line to think that. You must be watching some other Bengals because I posted stats about this the other week Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted May 23, 2014 Report Share Posted May 23, 2014 Only problem is, BJGE's skillset doesnt equate to 3rd down back. The primary focus for a 3rd down back is to be able to block a blitzer. Secondary is to be able to catch the ball, and finally to run the ball. Unfortunately, he's a horrible pass catcher. He's a mentor at this point in his career and not much more from here on out considering how the NFL views RBs and the position in general these days. Let me rephrase. 3rd down and short back Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|schotzee| Posted May 23, 2014 Report Share Posted May 23, 2014 If you believe the Bengals front office, they came far closer to taking Will Clarke at 55 than they did Ealy. Clarke does fit the Bengals DE prototype height/body type better. Might be the biggest indication yet that Guenther will be following the Zimmer model pretty closely. Bingo..Ealy is bust or didn't fit the scheme.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alleycat Posted May 24, 2014 Report Share Posted May 24, 2014 Outstanding backs from Dillon, to Rudi, to Benson have all had trouble topping 4.0 per rush here for the very reason noted above. Kony Ealy at 55 made buttloads of sense to me. I know you liked Ealy a lot but this was a case where I simply found myself forced to look at need versus any kind of BPA argument, and the DE position had the presence of Margus Hunt pushing it down the list for me. As you know, I liked Clarke a lot, but I was hoping in my dream scenario that we were going to get him in the 4th - and that the previous two rounds would consist of either two OL or one and a RB. If you believe the Bengals front office, they came far closer to taking Will Clarke at 55 than they did Ealy. Clarke does fit the Bengals DE prototype height/body type better. Might be the biggest indication yet that Guenther will be following the Zimmer model pretty closely. I have a great deal of trouble believing front offices, pretty much regardless of what they are talking about, but ESPECIALLY if it relates to something after the fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HairOnFire Posted May 24, 2014 Report Share Posted May 24, 2014 I know you liked Ealy a lot but this was a case where I simply found myself forced to look at need versus any kind of BPA argument, and the DE position had the presence of Margus Hunt pushing it down the list for me. Right, but how far could the Bengals need for another DE have been pushed down when the team used their very next draft? As for BPA, Ealy was drafted 5 picks after Hill so I feel safe saying he belongs in the conversation. But whether he tops Hill or not is something I can't say and as a result I do defer to the Bengals choice of Hill. But that said, Hill's rap sheet should have pushed him down, and the need for a RB argument falls flat at 55 if the Bengals have no intention of cutting BJGE. . Bingo..Ealy is bust or didn't fit the scheme.. Ealy would have fit this defense as well as he fits in Carolina, and if he busts it will take months or years to do so. Meanwhile, Hill could bust overnight if the wrong police scanner chirps. Clarke does fit the Bengals DE prototype height/body type better. The 6'6" 271 lb. Clarke is said to have more power.....which I don't doubt at all. But Ealy is both faster and more quick twitch at 6'5" and 275. So which one would have been a better fit to replace MJ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dex Posted May 24, 2014 Report Share Posted May 24, 2014 Right, but how far could the Bengals need for another DE have been pushed down when the team used their very next draft? As for BPA, Ealy was drafted 5 picks after Hill so I feel safe saying he belongs in the conversation. But whether he tops Hill or not is something I can't say and as a result I do defer to the Bengals choice of Hill. But that said, Hill's rap sheet should have pushed him down, and the need for a RB argument falls flat at 55 if the Bengals have no intention of cutting BJGE. . Depends on what BJGE's role would be. Would he be taking a Peerman type of role on special teams while getting a few more carries than Peerman? Is he injury insurance in case Bernard or Hill were to go down with injuries? If so, is having an experienced vet around enough to justify BJGE's salary? Also, there has been recent talk about Bernard taking some of Baby Hawk's snaps in the slot. Would that in turn give BJGE more snaps in the backfield as a result? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HairOnFire Posted May 24, 2014 Report Share Posted May 24, 2014 Depends on what BJGE's role would be. To provide expensive insurance in the event the Miseducation of Jeremy Hill continues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alleycat Posted May 24, 2014 Report Share Posted May 24, 2014 Right, but how far could the Bengals need for another DE have been pushed down when the team used their very next draft? Agreed, but I guess I'm talking about my own personal RELATIVE needs list. Clearly, they needed another DE to replace MJ in the pipeline. I'd just thought that the need for OL was higher than the need for DE. As for BPA, Ealy was drafted 5 picks after Hill so I feel safe saying he belongs in the conversation. But whether he tops Hill or not is something I can't say and as a result I do defer to the Bengals choice of Hill. But that said, Hill's rap sheet should have pushed him down, and the need for a RB argument falls flat at 55 if the Bengals have no intention of cutting BJGE. . I'm not going to lie, this draft was a bit of a head scratcher for me, even before it began. I have to imagine that the team found itself choosing between the guys we're talking about. I do find myself wondering if Hill might have fallen another 32 picks because of the flags, but with so many of the football folks saying after the draft that he was their #1 back makes me think that was a pipe dream. On the flip side, we didn't hear Hill's name talked about much in first round conversations, and Ealy was regularly there. The problem for me again comes down to how this particular draft fell with respect to which prospects would be available when. We could have taken Ealy in the second, but then, if RB was as much a target as it clearly was (I'll get to that in a second), who was that going to leave us with? There's only one guy who I would have considered, Andre Williams, and though I loved his punishing running style, his inability to catch failed to check off the one box that IMO this pick was very much about: a power back who could also catch. As for BJGE...first, I've gone on the record in my support of him over time, but I don't think keeping him lessens the need for a RB who can do what Hill can do (and BJGE can't). From a numbers perspective, it makes no sense to keep him, but I think it's precisely the character questions that you site about Hill that have the team thinking it's worth it to keep BJGE around. Namely, give the pup a true pro's pro to set the example. It's actually probably more than I would spend if it were my team/money, but...Another poster mentioned something compelling which I have trouble arguing with: when you compare BJGE on the roster to a Wilder or Peerman or Burkhead...it's a pretty easy choice The 6'6" 271 lb. Clarke is said to have more power.....which I don't doubt at all. But Ealy is both faster and more quick twitch at 6'5" and 275. So which one would have been a better fit to replace MJ? IMO, MJ wasn't even the speed rusher that I wanted on that side. I have to think the difference between Clarke and Ealy came down to the versatility the team so covets, as well as their play-the-run first philosophy that I'm just going to have to accept. Clarke regularly played DT snaps at WVU. He also played the run better, and with the 20 added pounds they are talking about will be an even better fit in both of those areas. The ideal would obviously be speed plus power, but those guys seem to go in the top 5, at least the ones who are truly identifiable (the one caveat would be projecting college OLB's the DE, an experiment that I was very much in favor of with Justin Houston, but that's a risk that doesn't work out far more often than it does). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zins30 Posted May 24, 2014 Report Share Posted May 24, 2014 Someone else mentioned it earlier that if BJGE is cut, our entire RB group will be age 21-23 or so (I guess that'd assume Peerman is no longer around too). While I think Gio approaches the game like a pro, and I assume Rex does too, I do think a year of BJGE's influence to show Hill how to approach the game (playbook, protections, diet, etc) would be great even if it does cost $3M. The downside is we'd lose one or more of Peerman, Rex or Wilder. The question is if the value gained from this one season outweighs what we lose in the future with that group. My gut feeling tells me BJGE sticks around as an expensive mentor (especially if we don't need the cap space if we can't/don't get Andy's deal done this offseason). I think we'll see Gio, Hill, BJGE and Rex. Although I love what Peerman brings on ST, I think Rex can provide a similar skillet for less and is younger and possibly quicker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelWeston Posted May 24, 2014 Report Share Posted May 24, 2014 Can Law Firm just take a pay cut? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|schotzee| Posted May 24, 2014 Report Share Posted May 24, 2014 Can Law Firm just take a pay cut? That's what I was thinking. I don't see why not.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squirrlnutz Posted May 24, 2014 Report Share Posted May 24, 2014 Can Law Firm just take a pay cut? With our cap situation I see no reason why he has to. I have no problem if they want to honor his contract and play him minimally in a reserve role. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelWeston Posted May 24, 2014 Report Share Posted May 24, 2014 The point is the decision doesn't have to be law firm or 2.5 million Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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