OL Offseason 2023

[claptonrocks]

3 hours ago, sparky151 said:

Better than Trey Hill or Ben Brown isn't a very high standard. Hill was a 6th round pick in 2021 who hasn't shown much and was behind Trey Hopkins, who hasn't been able to find a job in the NFL. Brown was an undrafted rookie free agent last year who missed the entire season with an injury after missing most of his last college season with a different injury. 

 

So it's safe to say we don't have anyone we can count on if Karras gets hurt. Pretty much anyone with prior NFL starting experience at center would be an upgrade. 

How much experience has Hill been alloted?

Theyve had chances to secure a pick or FA backup but ride with Hill.

 

Underestimating him as a liability seems illogical

 

 

 

 

[sparky151]

Hill hasn't played much, but when he's been on the field, he hasn't done very well. If Karras were out for an extended period, the Bengals might well call Trey Hopkins up to see if he's still in shape. Billy Price signed with the Saints last week. Yeah, that's how dire it would be. 

 

Pretending someone is adequate just because they are on the roster is illogical. Teams get surprised all the time when their inexperienced guys struggle in games after looking ok in practice. Hill has played 217 career snaps while being flagged 6 times. That suggests he's getting beat pretty often. 

[claptonrocks]

6 hours ago, sparky151 said:

Hill hasn't played much, but when he's been on the field, he hasn't done very well. If Karras were out for an extended period, the Bengals might well call Trey Hopkins up to see if he's still in shape. Billy Price signed with the Saints last week. Yeah, that's how dire it would be. 

 

Pretending someone is adequate just because they are on the roster is illogical. Teams get surprised all the time when their inexperienced guys struggle in games after looking ok in practice. Hill has played 217 career snaps while being flagged 6 times. That suggests he's getting beat pretty often. 

I know its a game of stats but to judge a player by so few is unfair..

 

Hes had time to get experience in the system .

He should be NFL strong by now..

Im ok with him for now..

 

 

[sparky151]

Uh, he played 210 of his career snaps in 2021, then only 7 snaps last year, all vs Carolina in the blowout. That doesn't suggest an improving player the coaches want to get some action. 

[T-Dub]

Losing Karras would be a huge blow to the OL no matter who is backing him up, it's hardly worth worrying about the name on their jersey at this point. 

[UncleEarl]

3 hours ago, sparky151 said:

Uh, he played 210 of his career snaps in 2021, then only 7 snaps last year, all vs Carolina in the blowout. That doesn't suggest an improving player the coaches want to get some action. 

 

You don't "get a guy some reps" on the OL.  Especially when the guy is the center.  Too many bad things can happen unless you are in a total blowout.  

[dex]

18 hours ago, sparky151 said:

Hill hasn't played much, but when he's been on the field, he hasn't done very well. If Karras were out for an extended period, the Bengals might well call Trey Hopkins up to see if he's still in shape. Billy Price signed with the Saints last week. Yeah, that's how dire it would be. 

 

Pretending someone is adequate just because they are on the roster is illogical. Teams get surprised all the time when their inexperienced guys struggle in games after looking ok in practice. Hill has played 217 career snaps while being flagged 6 times. That suggests he's getting beat pretty often. 

Trey Hopkins and Billy Price are 2 examples of what happen when this front office/coaches decide players are not good enough. They move on. If they get to training camp and decide the depth isn't what they need at a certain position, they will bring in players that they have determined are better than what they have now. But you don't do that until you decide there is a need. Clearly there don't feel that at the moment. Here are Zac Taylor's comments from just last week:

 

As he bid farewell to his Bengals for the summer, head coach Zac Taylor said Thursday what many have been thinking since the draft. This is their deepest roster in his five seasons and the expectations are soaring with the talent.

"(The depth) is the best we've had and it is hard in pro football now to have as strong as a 53-man roster that we can potentially have," Taylor said after the last practice of mandatory camp. "I just think it is the way the salary cap is built. You've got to acquire young players and hope they step up quickly.

"You just really kind of think through where the roster is  at the 90-man and you are really encouraged from top to bottom. There are no players that don't belong here. You can oftentimes get on a 90-man roster. But everyone belongs here and has a role and I'm excited to watch all these guys compete."

That won't happen until training camp opens July 26 for  the first practice on the Kettering Health Practice Fields at Paycor Stadium. But Taylor is clearly bullish on how well his streamlined spring ball schedule unfolded and who executed it.

"I think this team has really high-end starters and really talented depth," Taylor said. "You feel like this thing is way ahead of where we've been years past. Especially from the first day I got here. So you can see the details. Guys are moving so quickly. The players here are empowered, they've taken ownership of our schemes and so that allows them to take the next step …  New players I think feel that and they feel the need to study up and maximize the reps they get because they can see guys that have been in these systems for years now at the high level that they're playing, the high level of understanding what we're asking them to do, and that's a really good thing for our team."

 

 

[sparky151]

4 hours ago, UncleEarl said:

 

You don't "get a guy some reps" on the OL.  Especially when the guy is the center.  Too many bad things can happen unless you are in a total blowout.  

 

So then you need to sign a veteran as the backup. An Austin Reiter or Hroniss Grasu type cheap guy. They're no great shakes but are cheap and have a lot more NFL snaps than Hill or Brown. 

 

3 hours ago, dex said:

Trey Hopkins and Billy Price are 2 examples of what happen when this front office/coaches decide players are not good enough. They move on. If they get to training camp and decide the depth isn't what they need at a certain position, they will bring in players that they have determined are better than what they have now. But you don't do that until you decide there is a need. Clearly there don't feel that at the moment. Here are Zac Taylor's comments from just last week:

 

As he bid farewell to his Bengals for the summer, head coach Zac Taylor said Thursday what many have been thinking since the draft. This is their deepest roster in his five seasons and the expectations are soaring with the talent.

"(The depth) is the best we've had and it is hard in pro football now to have as strong as a 53-man roster that we can potentially have," Taylor said after the last practice of mandatory camp. "I just think it is the way the salary cap is built. You've got to acquire young players and hope they step up quickly.

"You just really kind of think through where the roster is  at the 90-man and you are really encouraged from top to bottom. There are no players that don't belong here. You can oftentimes get on a 90-man roster. But everyone belongs here and has a role and I'm excited to watch all these guys compete."

That won't happen until training camp opens July 26 for  the first practice on the Kettering Health Practice Fields at Paycor Stadium. But Taylor is clearly bullish on how well his streamlined spring ball schedule unfolded and who executed it.

"I think this team has really high-end starters and really talented depth," Taylor said. "You feel like this thing is way ahead of where we've been years past. Especially from the first day I got here. So you can see the details. Guys are moving so quickly. The players here are empowered, they've taken ownership of our schemes and so that allows them to take the next step …  New players I think feel that and they feel the need to study up and maximize the reps they get because they can see guys that have been in these systems for years now at the high level that they're playing, the high level of understanding what we're asking them to do, and that's a really good thing for our team."

 

 

 

Um, that's pretty standard coachspeak. Doesn't mean much. 

[Jamie_B]

5 minutes ago, sparky151 said:

 

Um, that's pretty standard coachspeak. Doesn't mean much. 

 

It would be if he said it every year, he's never said it's the deepest we've been.

[dex]

13 hours ago, Jamie_B said:

 

It would be if he said it every year, he's never said it's the deepest we've been.

Yeah, it is their very actions that tell you they believe what they are saying. They made a couple of smaller switchouts to improve their depth at a couple of positions - Sidney Jones to replace Apple, Trevor Semien to replace Brandon Allen. If they haven't made similar swichouts at other positions, it isn't done out of misplaced loyalty to one of their own. It is because at the moment they are convinced that what they have now is a better fit than what they can currently acquire elsewhere. That opinion might change by the end of the preseason, but that is their feeling right now.

[Inigo Montoya]

21 hours ago, sparky151 said:

Uh, he played 210 of his career snaps in 2021, then only 7 snaps last year, all vs Carolina in the blowout. That doesn't suggest an improving player the coaches want to get some action. 

It suggests he hasn’t played much since his rookie year.  Yeah he struggled in his limited action in 2021 but you have no idea what improvement he’s made since then.  There’s no guarantee a veteran off the scrap heap would be any better.  

[sparky151]

1 hour ago, Inigo Montoya said:

It suggests he hasn’t played much since his rookie year.  Yeah he struggled in his limited action in 2021 but you have no idea what improvement he’s made since then.  There’s no guarantee a veteran off the scrap heap would be any better.  

 

What you say is true but meaningless. There are no guarantees in the NFL. But the odds are pretty high that declining playing time for a late round draft pick isn't a sign of confidence in him. 

[Inigo Montoya]

2 hours ago, sparky151 said:

 

What you say is true but meaningless. There are no guarantees in the NFL. But the odds are pretty high that declining playing time for a late round draft pick isn't a sign of confidence in him. 

Declining playing time?  You mean the starter didn’t get hurt?  We’re talking about a backup player.  If anything it’s a sign of confidence in Hill that they didn’t pick someone else from the scrap heap.  The coaches certainly have a better sense of where he’s at than outsiders.  

[sparky151]

You agree that Hill struggled in 2021. If Karras plays every snap, we're in good shape at C. But he could use a break now and then. We've seen Carman or Adeniji or Scharping on the field even when the starter was healthy. But Hill only got 7 snaps in 1 game. 

 

The Front Office is rolling the dice on the position, unnecessarily so IMO. We could have signed a cheap vet for C the way we did with Ford, Basham, or Jones. 

[dex]

2 hours ago, Inigo Montoya said:

Declining playing time?  You mean the starter didn’t get hurt?  We’re talking about a backup player.  If anything it’s a sign of confidence in Hill that they didn’t pick someone else from the scrap heap.  The coaches certainly have a better sense of where he’s at than outsiders.  

In a new Lapham podcast Brian Callahan singled Trey Hill out as a very much improved player since his rookie season.

[UncleEarl]

6 hours ago, sparky151 said:

You agree that Hill struggled in 2021. If Karras plays every snap, we're in good shape at C. But he could use a break now and then. We've seen Carman or Adeniji or Scharping on the field even when the starter was healthy. But Hill only got 7 snaps in 1 game. 

 

The Front Office is rolling the dice on the position, unnecessarily so IMO. We could have signed a cheap vet for C the way we did with Ford, Basham, or Jones. 

 

Any "cheap vet" on the OL isn't worth squat.  They're cheap for a reason...you don't want them to play.  If they were any good they would be on a team. 

[sparky151]

Ford is on a vet minimum deal that counts at a lower cap number than his actual pay. I wouldn't be surprised if he makes the roster, if one of Collins/Williams is cut or moved. He'd bump Adeniji and D'Ante Smith to the PS or off the roster. Scharping is also in that category and his roster spot looks safe currently. 

 

Cheap vets are good to have in case younger players don't pan out. 

[dex]

1 hour ago, sparky151 said:

Ford is on a vet minimum deal that counts at a lower cap number than his actual pay. I wouldn't be surprised if he makes the roster, if one of Collins/Williams is cut or moved. He'd bump Adeniji and D'Ante Smith to the PS or off the roster. Scharping is also in that category and his roster spot looks safe currently. 

 

Cheap vets are good to have in case younger players don't pan out. 

I fully expect Ford to make the roster, Even though they got him at a cheap price, they actually signed him very early in free agency. The day after they reached a deal with Orlando Brown, in fact. The Bengals clearly wanted Ford and Ford wanted the Bengals. Neither party bothered to wait until week 2 or later to reach an agreement. 

 

Neither Collins/Williams figure to be moved by opening day. Collins figures to start the season on PUP after tearing 3 ligaments and you can't waive an injured player. And because Collins is coming off of knee surgery performed early this year, you can't afford to cut or trade Williams.

[Jamie_B]

Ford is competing for the RT spot with Jonnah, Collins, and Carman

 

Unless he is willing to consider any spot other than RT, he isn't making this roster.

[dex]

22 minutes ago, Jamie_B said:

Ford is competing for the RT spot with Jonnah, Collins, and Carman

 

Unless he is willing to consider any spot other than RT, he isn't making this roster.

Heard Taylor say that they would be starting out giving Ford a look at RT. That seems to be a promise they might have made to Ford to get him to sign. Of course he has played plenty of OG at the NFL level so maybe he becomes a G-T type who could become one of the 8 OL usually active on gameday. 

[T-Dub]

1 hour ago, Jamie_B said:

Ford is competing for the RT spot with Jonnah, Collins, and Carman

 

Unless he is willing to consider any spot other than RT, he isn't making this roster.

 

No, he's only competing with Carman. The other 2 aren't competing for anything beyond who can rehab fast enough to enter the conversation. It could very well just be Ford and Carman battling it out in camp.

 

Happytalk about the wonderful depth aside Ford is making the roster.

[sparky151]

The team will likely keep 9 O-linemen on the 53. It's possible Collins starts on PUP but he looked pretty good at OTAs and likely to be ready to go for week 1. If he's available at final cutdown, my guess is the chart looks like: Brown-Volson-Karras-Cappa-Williams as starters with Carman, Hill, Scharping, and Collins as backups. Ford may stick on the PS, along with Adeniji and Brown. 

 

Btw, injured players can certainly be cut. If they are cut from IR and not expected to pass a physical this season, they get an injury settlement and if they have guaranteed money remaining that would be due as well. But someone like Collins could be cut at any time. If he's on the roster for week 1, then was cut later, he would be eligible for termination pay. Sometimes that is described as a salary guarantee but it's something else. 

[Inigo Montoya]

2 hours ago, T-Dub said:

 

No, he's only competing with Carman. The other 2 aren't competing for anything beyond who can rehab fast enough to enter the conversation. It could very well just be Ford and Carman battling it out in camp.

 

Happytalk about the wonderful depth aside Ford is making the roster.

Ford is on the roster bubble.  I won’t be shocked either way if he makes it or not.  I think his ability to potentially play OG might help him and put Scharping off the roster. 

[T-Dub]

1 hour ago, Inigo Montoya said:

Ford is on the roster bubble.  I won’t be shocked either way if he makes it or not.  I think his ability to potentially play OG might help him and put Scharping off the roster. 

 

Not sure who he replaces exactly but I expect he's better than the other 7th or 8th guy he needs to beat.  The back end of the OL depth chart is pretty sorry, and at least one OT (Collins) probably won't be in the mix when the roster is finalized.  They may eventually release Ford if La'ell gets activated but that'll depend on how the rest of the OL is doing if & when that happens. Could also depend on what they intend to do with the loser of Flounder vs Jonah, where Carman has that same advantage of working at guard. Then again, he wasn't very good at it, but Ford isn't likely to be mistaken for Bobbie Williams himself. At $12.5 mil I can't see them cutting Jonah under any normal circumstances, plus he's certainly better than Adeniji when he can stay on the field.

 

Safe bet that a 6th guy will have to step up somewhere on the OL this year, even if it's just the 2nd half of a close game. 

 

 

[Jamie_B]

1 hour ago, Inigo Montoya said:

Ford is on the roster bubble.  I won’t be shocked either way if he makes it or not.  I think his ability to potentially play OG might help him and put Scharping off the roster. 

 

 

Pretty much exactly how I feel.