OL Offseason 2023

[T-Dub]

43 minutes ago, membengal said:

He is not bad. Your thesis is and has been and you won’t stop screaming it is that he is bad. He’s not. He was average at LT. I see no reason why he can’t be average at RT. Why he can’t be at least as effective as Riley Reiff was. That would be good enough until Collins is ready or Carman shows he is better than average at RT. But I submit a healthy Williams gives us a good baseline at RT. I know you will spend ten pages saying otherwise when all we really need to do is see how it plays out starting next week. 

 

What would you call a 12 sack season other than bad? It's hardly a "thesis".

[claptonrocks]

On 6/9/2023 at 4:53 PM, sparky151 said:

It looks like Collins will be ready to go for week 1. If that's the case, will he be on the team and in the lineup or will it be Jonah (assuming they don't trade him)?. They can save 9 mil in cap space by cutting Collins but he's obviously a better RT when healthy than Williams. 

 

Carman seems to be doing well in OTAs so he's a much better 3rd/4th option than Ford or Adeniji or Smith. 

 

RT isn't the only open position on the roster, Battle and Scott are fighting for a starting job and we'll see if CTB holds off Turner. 

The Bengals  have no stars on the oline but they seem a determined bunch so far..

 

JB doesn't need Phillys or even Cleveland's oline to excell.

I'm  finally relieved to see depth at both T spots..

Its called a war of attrition..

 

 

 

 

 

[stryker57]

we seem to run out of OL when it comes to playoff time.  screw it we dont have to cut anyone to get under the cap, keep them all. if they do a contract with burrow and/or Higgins and need to the room so be it. till then there is not anyone out in UFA we need the cap room for 

[stryker57]

1 hour ago, T-Dub said:

 

What would you call a 12 sack season other than bad? It's hardly a "thesis".

i guessit depends on when the sacks were and who they were against. .  but less then 1 sack per game . 

[Jamie_B]

1 hour ago, sparky151 said:

 

Oh, I doubt they succeed in getting value for Williams. The time to do that was before the draft but they boofed it.  So, if they keep Jonah around, do they cut Collins and save 9 mil? Do they pay one of them to be a backup player? Jonah's best season was in 2021 when he was an average LT and the best player on a bad O-line. But Collins's play with Dallas in 2021 was much better than Jonah's play for the Bengals. If they both get back to their 2021 levels, then Collins is both a better overall player and a much better RT. 

 

 

 

[UncleEarl]

16 hours ago, membengal said:

He is not bad. Your thesis is and has been and you won’t stop screaming it is that he is bad. He’s not. He was average at LT. I see no reason why he can’t be average at RT. Why he can’t be at least as effective as Riley Reiff was. That would be good enough until Collins is ready or Carman shows he is better than average at RT. But I submit a healthy Williams gives us a good baseline at RT. I know you will spend ten pages saying otherwise when all we really need to do is see how it plays out starting next week. 

While I don’t assume Williams will be awful at RT, he wasn’t average at LT either.  He was a bottom tier starting LT his entire career.  He would have a few good games, but would get totally mauled by talented rushers.  Not massive enough to stop the bull rush, nor quick enough to stop outside speed guys.  He’s a tweener and will end up a spot starter/backup for a long time, IMO. 

[membengal]

Whelp. That's not true in terms of him being a bottom tier LT his entire career. Literally, it's not true.

 

I am gonna paste Sheeran's article in full but I can't paste any tables in the piece so check it out for yourselves ---

 

https://atozsports.com/cincinnati/bengals-explaining-the-jonah-williams-dialogue/

Article title - Explaining the Jonah Williams dialogue

 

Quote

 

Action spawns reaction. The larger the action, the larger the reaction. But contrary to what appears to be popular belief, the arrival of Orlando Brown Jr. has not in turn made Jonah Williams any less of a player than he's been.

 

You would never know that based solely off the last few months.

 

The Williams discourse has been complicated to say the least, and it certainly didn't use to be this way. The problem to me is that it doesn't have to be complex. The facts are very clear for everyone to see. 

 

Williams, by every objective measure, is rated as a league-average starting offensive tackle. That is based on how he's performed in his three years manning the left tackle spot for Cincinnati. All of his ups and downs combined into a single evaluation nets a player who would find himself rated near the middle of 64 projected starters at the position.

 

With just over 3,000 career snaps under his belt, Williams' average Pro Football Focus offense and pass blocking grades are 68.5 and 68.7, respectively. His peak offense grade was 74.5 in 2021, and peak pass block grade was 75.8 in 2020. 

 

His lows in both categories (61 offense and 62.8 pass block) both were from 2022, and that's important when making sense of the conversation, but it should not end it outright considering there's more quality production from the two years prior. 

 

Jonah Williams season PFF grades 

 

Offense Grade

 

70.1 (39/59)   2020

74.5 (24/55) 2021

61.0 (48/57) 2022

 

Pass Block Grade

 

75.8 (28/59) 2020

67.5 (34/55) 2021

62.8 (49/57) 2022

 

A What Have You Done For Me Lately mindset will create a hole that Williams can't climb out of. Instead of labeling that as a blanket death sentence, is it too much to wonder if his pedigree of being a high quality collegiate tackle and passable NFL starter for two years grants him a chance to bounce back in a contract year? 

 

If you were to take his career average grades and rank them in each of the last three years, he would once again fall near the middle of the pack. That's three years of being what you would consider league average, and even if the final grades for 2022 were lower than normal, the games that made up that slate showcased promising performances. 

 

Last year, Williams graded higher than 80 in pass blocking in four games, all of them happening the day of, or after he dislocated his knee. These individual showings are unfortunately countered out by four games with pass block grades below 45. Two of those games were against the Cleveland Browns, including the Monday Night Football debacle wherein he was charged with three sacks allowed.

 

That leads us to the dominant talking point with Williams. PFF charged him with responsibility for 13 of Joe Burrow's sacks taken last year. It's a damning figure on first glance, but that's also a reflection of what people believe when it comes to o-line play.  

 

Fantasy football doesn't involve linemen. There are no positive counting stats when it comes to those protecting the skill players. Sacks are drive killers that are immediately, and unquestionably, placed on the lineman's shoulders. The only aspect of their job that anyone cares about is to not screw up, despite playing arguably the hardest positions on the field.

 

It's a ridiculous concept, but not one that is changing anytime soon.

 

Let's operate under the assumption that all 13 sacks listed are indeed Williams' fault entirely (which is not how this works in the real world but here we are). It would be one thing if they were equally distributed across the 17 games he played in, but that's far from the case. He wasn't consistently getting beat in the worst ways possible, rather specific matchups were giving him fits.

 

In three games against the Pittsburgh Stealers, Browns, and New England Patriots, Williams allowed eight of his 13 sacks. Simple math tells us that a mere five sacks were allowed in the 14 other contests. The Tennessee Titans, Kansas City Chiefs, Tampa Bay Buccaneers, even the Baltimore Ravens game when he played through the dislocated knee for the first time: all clean sheets. 

 

He was also close to perfect the second time he played the Stealers. I broke down that game on YouTube here:

 

 

 

 

Quote

 

Was it still a down year? Absolutely, and that's reflective of the standard Williams established at Alabama and his first two years in Cincinnati, when he was viewed as an asset on a porous line.

 

What essentially boils to three bad games instilling a belief that Williams isn't even worthy to start on an NFL team anymore is absolute poppycock. But it's obviously more than just that.

 

 The last seven years of Bengals football has provided plenty of examples of porous offensive line play. Cedric Ogbuehi, Jake Fisher, Billy Price, Alex Redmond, Bobby Hart, Russell Bodine, T.J. Johnson, John Jerry, Andre Smith, Michael Jordan, Hakeem Adeniji, and Isaiah Prince have all started real football games for the Bengals in recent years. 

 

Perspective is important. While Williams has yet to develop into an above average starter after being drafted just outside the top 10 four years ago, grouping him anywhere near this cluster of undesirables is absurd. Being average as an offensive lineman makes you more of an asset than being average anywhere else on the field due to the sheer scarcity of truly high quality players. 

 

Brown is the closest the Bengals have had a high quality blocker since Andrew Whitworth, and Williams requested a trade from the Bengals just a day after the deal was reported. While it might be easy to look at this in binary terms, it's anything but. The Bengals sought an opportunity to upgrade the position and took advantage. Any self respecting franchise would do the same. Williams, on the other hand, also acted with his own interest in mind and wanted an opportunity to keep playing the position elsewhere.

 

There isn't a villain in this scenario, just two parties who were protecting themselves.

 

That brings us to the now, where Williams is still recovering from not one, but two dislocated knees on his own terms. When he's cleared to practice, practice he will. He's got a competition to partake in at a new position. 

 

What feels like the weirdest part of this discourse is the specifics of the competition itself. It will feature Williams, La'el Collins, Jackson Carman, and long shots Cody Ford and Hakeem Adeniji. Realistically, it's a two or three player race. 

 

Out of all these options, Williams and Collins are the most promising based off their track records, but if we were to judge strictly off last season, the edge would go to Williams. Collins graded out at 57.9 on offense and 44.2 in pass blocking despite being charged with five sacks allowed. On a snap-for-snap basis, Williams was the better player. He simply won more consistently, despite his losses leading to more takedowns of his quarterback. 

 

While sacks are a product of multiple things going wrong, pressures are more easily identifiable as an isolated loss by the lineman. As Twitter user WhoDeyKnowitALL pointed out, a greater percentage of pressures allowed came from the right tackle spot compared to the left tackle spot for the Bengals in 2022.

 

This isn't to knock on Collins, who was a dominant force with the Dallas Cowboys just two years ago, but rather a reminder that Williams' bookend was allowing just as much chaos to the pocket. The benefit of playing right tackle is when you lose quickly, it's more times than not right in the eyesight of a right-handed quarterback. Evading pressure from the right usually takes you to the left, where if your left tackle is losing as well... bad things happen.

 

Collins is also not 100% healthy right now and has four years of age on Williams. This brings Carman into the picture, the player who's currently taking reps with the starters in OTAs. 

No one player on the Bengals' roster is a bigger mystery than Carman. After losing competitions at guard two years in a row, the former second-round pick finally got a chance to play tackle. The results were mixed, but the perception was overwhelming positive. That's what happens when standards are lowered from past performance.

 

Carman's 10-quarter postseason run has given him a new lease on NFL life. He's reportedly in much better shape entering his third year, and his confidence should higher after being a starter in two playoff wins.

 

And yet, him beating out Williams in a position battle still seems unlikely, because Williams is still the better player. The sample size to say the contrary with meaning just doesn't exist

yet.

 

In a perfect world, all three tackles look the part when training camp comes around, forcing the Bengals to make a tough decision. While we're at it, both Ford and Adeniji will look great as well.

 

That perfect world doesn't exist. Odds are one tackle will separate from the others, or they'll all show their own faults in one way or another. 

 

The safest bet right now is that Williams is fully healthy come training camp, and he'll have the inside track to win the right tackle job. The player that he was last year would be enough to become the best right tackle the Bengals have had in a quite some time. A return to the player we saw from 2020-21 would be even better.

 

But that's why these things aren't decided in June, or by sacks allowed from months prior. Whomever looks the best in camp will start. The Bengals will want to see if Williams can be that guy again. 

 

 

 

[membengal]

You all can think Jonah Williams sucks and nothing anyone says is gonna change that, but at least operate from a factual basis. Over the last three seasons, Jonah Williams has graded out as literally an average LT by PFF (see the above article for deets). Fact. Last year his worst year, but that was colored by two knee dislocations, and, as Sheerhan points out, getting cooked in 3 games. Which...NOT GREAT BOB - but also not the end of the world. If Jonah can just be AVERAGE at RT (as he has graded out to over 3000 NFL snaps at LT) then we will be fine. Or Carman will beat him out. Or Collins when he is cleared. 

 

That said, carry on and what not. 

[UncleEarl]

3 hours ago, membengal said:

You all can think Jonah Williams sucks and nothing anyone says is gonna change that, but at least operate from a factual basis. Over the last three seasons, Jonah Williams has graded out as literally an average LT by PFF (see the above article for deets). Fact. Last year his worst year, but that was colored by two knee dislocations, and, as Sheerhan points out, getting cooked in 3 games. Which...NOT GREAT BOB - but also not the end of the world. If Jonah can just be AVERAGE at RT (as he has graded out to over 3000 NFL snaps at LT) then we will be fine. Or Carman will beat him out. Or Collins when he is cleared. 

 

That said, carry on and what not. 

 

The problem with Williams is he isn't predictable.  Collins, on the other hand, is predictable.  You know Collins will not be bull rushed, but you also know speed rushers will go around him.  At least you can game plan for that.  Williams gets beaten in many different ways.   He isn't particularly good at any one thing, he's OK at it all.  Coaches or QBs can't plan for Williams' issues because they aren't consistent.  Having him on your QBs blind side is an issue.  Hopefully he holds up better at RT than he did at LT.

 

As far as his injuries go, that is a problem in and of itself.  He's been out a lot for a young guy.  Not a reflection on his effort or perseverance, but just the truth.  He wasn't playing particularly well when he dislocated the kneecap the first time.  He wasn't very good in 2021 either.  You can quote whichever internet guru you want.  They have to time to put together an opinion and you can just about always find one that agrees with whatever you think.  Jonah Williams has been a disappointment as LT.  It was covered up to an extent because the guys around him were so much worse and/or, he has regressed over the past few years. 

[T-Dub]

1 hour ago, UncleEarl said:

 

The problem with Williams is he isn't predictable.  Collins, on the other hand, is predictable.  You know Collins will not be bull rushed, but you also know speed rushers will go around him.  At least you can game plan for that.  Williams gets beaten in many different ways.   He isn't particularly good at any one thing, he's OK at it all.  Coaches or QBs can't plan for Williams' issues because they aren't consistent.  Having him on your QBs blind side is an issue.  Hopefully he holds up better at RT than he did at LT.

 

As far as his injuries go, that is a problem in and of itself.  He's been out a lot for a young guy.  Not a reflection on his effort or perseverance, but just the truth.  He wasn't playing particularly well when he dislocated the kneecap the first time.  He wasn't very good in 2021 either.  You can quote whichever internet guru you want.  They have to time to put together an opinion and you can just about always find one that agrees with whatever you think.  Jonah Williams has been a disappointment as LT.  It was covered up to an extent because the guys around him were so much worse and/or, he has regressed over the past few years. 

 

👆

 

PFF grades mean fuck-all.  Allowing a dozen sacks in a season is objectively bad.  I hope he turns into a good RT too but trying to convince myself of it because the team is relying on him would be pointless.  This guy has played a grand total of one full season, got replaced, asked to be traded, is now going to change positions and I'm wrong for thinking that sounds like a disaster in the making? If the team hadn't exercised a $13 million contract option would we even be having this conversation?

[UncleEarl]

2 hours ago, T-Dub said:

 

👆

 

PFF grades mean fuck-all.  Allowing a dozen sacks in a season is objectively bad.  I hope he turns into a good RT too but trying to convince myself of it because the team is relying on him would be pointless.  This guy has played a grand total of one full season, got replaced, asked to be traded, is now going to change positions and I'm wrong for thinking that sounds like a disaster in the making? If the team hadn't exercised a $13 million contract option would we even be having this conversation?

 

I agree with your line of thinking, but I just don't think it is as dire as you do.  Guys can play RT who have no business playing LT.  LT is the most important position on the OL.  (for a RH QB)  With less pressure on Williams he may chill out a bit and play better.  He may not.  At least Burrow will be more likely to see it coming on the right side.  Carman may have matured and be ready to step up.  There are options.  I see the concern, but to say it's a disaster in the making is a bit much.  They will likely get by with one of these options at RT.  Aren't many OLs in the league that are solid at every position.

[claptonrocks]

9 minutes ago, UncleEarl said:

 

I agree with your line of thinking, but I just don't think it is as dire as you do.  Guys can play RT who have no business playing LT.  LT is the most important position on the OL.  (for a RH QB)  With less pressure on Williams he may chill out a bit and play better.  He may not.  At least Burrow will be more likely to see it coming on the right side.  Carman may have matured and be ready to step up.  There are options.  I see the concern, but to say it's a disaster in the making is a bit much.  They will likely get by with one of these options at RT.  Aren't many OLs in the league that are solid at every position.

 

My feelings as well Earl..

 

[T-Dub]

8 minutes ago, UncleEarl said:

 

I agree with your line of thinking, but I just don't think it is as dire as you do.  Guys can play RT who have no business playing LT.  LT is the most important position on the OL.  (for a RH QB)  With less pressure on Williams he may chill out a bit and play better.  He may not.  At least Burrow will be more likely to see it coming on the right side.  Carman may have matured and be ready to step up.  There are options.  I see the concern, but to say it's a disaster in the making is a bit much.  They will likely get by with one of these options at RT.  Aren't many OLs in the league that are solid at every position.

 

We've certainly "got by" with worse but I want to see them win it all, not just tread water. 

 

I'd have more faith in the move if he were a mauler type that maybe didn't have the agility at LT or something like that.  

 

The disaster stuff is more to do with his inability to play through an entire season.  People keep talking about there being depth at the position but it's injured guy likely to start on PUP, guy that's been injured almost every season, and Carman. There'd be great depth if we could Frankenstein someone together from all 3 but I don't think medical science or the NFLPA are up to that. 😆

[dex]

I feel so much better about the offensive line now than I have in quite a few years. The coaches and front office have rebuilt the OL with plenty of new faces over the last couple of seasons. It took time to build OL continuity last season because of so many new faces in the lineup so it only makes sense that they would be much farther along this spring. Orlando Brown has 1 Super Bowl ring, Ted Karras has two plus Alex Cappa has one of his own. They look to lead the way for the entire unit. Here are some very recent Karras comments:

 

 "We're so far ahead of where we were last year, especially from an O-Line perspective," Karras said to James Rapien. "We've only added one more (guy), we added four last year, and just procedurally everyone knowing their assignments. I mean, Orlando (Brown Jr.) has been easy, you know, easy install for a football coach. He's got a great football mind. I was watching the film last night. I just thought, man, we look really serious. We look really organized. And you know, I really liked the week of practice that we have."

[sparky151]

31 minutes ago, dex said:

I feel so much better about the offensive line now than I have in quite a few years. The coaches and front office have rebuilt the OL with plenty of new faces over the last couple of seasons. It took time to build OL continuity last season because of so many new faces in the lineup so it only makes sense that they would be much farther along this spring. Orlando Brown has 2 Super Bowl rings to match Ted Karras plus Alex Cappa has one of his own. They look to lead the way for the entire unit. Here are some very recent Karras comments:

 

 "We're so far ahead of where we were last year, especially from an O-Line perspective," Karras said to James Rapien. "We've only added one more (guy), we added four last year, and just procedurally everyone knowing their assignments. I mean, Orlando (Brown Jr.) has been easy, you know, easy install for a football coach. He's got a great football mind. I was watching the film last night. I just thought, man, we look really serious. We look really organized. And you know, I really liked the week of practice that we have."

 

So is that with Carman as the starting RT? He's the one out there in OTAs.

 

I had to laugh at the internet guy who claimed Jonah had a great first 2 seasons with the Bengals. Apparently he sees things that aren't there. 

[T-Dub]

44 minutes ago, sparky151 said:

 

So is that with Carman as the starting RT? He's the one out there in OTAs.

 

I had to laugh at the internet guy who claimed Jonah had a great first 2 seasons with the Bengals. Apparently he sees things that aren't there. 

 

You could even say he was flawless as a rookie

[|BlackJesus|]

Brown Jr: "Jonah? Never heard of her."

[spicoli]

I truly long for the day when I never have to read about Jonah Williams or Joe Mixon on this board ever again. Seriously. 

[T-Dub]

1 minute ago, spicoli said:

I truly long for the day when I never have to read about Jonah Williams or Joe Mixon on this board ever again. Seriously. 

 

Well that we can agree on 😁

 

Unless it's a Pro Bowl appearance or something like that, I guess there's still a chance

[|High School Harry|]

2 hours ago, spicoli said:

I truly long for the day when I never have to read about Jonah Williams or Joe Mixon on this board ever again. Seriously. 

Or Tabor's BFF, Andy Dalton, either. 

[Griever]

Jonah Williams: I'll be happy to be a contributor with so many great Bengals teammates - ProFootballTalk (nbcsports.com)
Posted by Josh Alper on June 13, 2023, 7:50 AM EDT

 

After the Bengals agreed to sign Orlando Brown Jr. as a free agent, their incumbent left tackle Jonah Williams asked the team to trade him.

The Bengals rebuffed that request and said that the plan for the coming season is for Williams to compete for the right tackle job. On Monday, Williams indicated that he’s on board with that plan.

 

Williams said the biggest challenge for him has been “re-learning everything for the other side of your body,” but that he’s confident he’s “going to crush it.”

“I’ll be happy to be a contributor on a team where I have so many great teammates,” Williams said, via the team’s website. “l love everyone in the room, love the coaches, love the fans. I’m stoked.”

 

Williams is also returning from a dislocated kneecap that required a surgical repair and said he feels “stronger than ever” after months of rehabbing, so it appears he will be all systems go in his bid to win a starting job this summer.

[MOC]

https://www.bengals.com/news/jonah-williams-on-verge-of-being-cleared-for-training-camp-with-knee-i-think-is-

[Griever]

 

[saphead]

Training camp is next month bitches. LFG 

[Griever]