|BlackJesus| Posted March 25, 2008 Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 [center][img]http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j318/Tredcrow/Guerrilla/mosaic2.jpg[/img][/center] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sois Posted March 25, 2008 Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 America!!! Fuck yeah!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CincyInDC Posted March 25, 2008 Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 Can anyone say it's a small price to pay? Or justify it some other way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScarletKnight Posted March 25, 2008 Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 The new york times had a piece that showcased the blogs of some that had passed. Reading their blogs was really intense. It put life into these nameless faces many do not think twice about. It is insanely depressing to know that people are dying in a war being fought for what reason? No one exactly knows, the reason has changed a million times from day one. Soldiers recognize the insanity of it and many mentioned the only reason they keep fighting is for their fellow men and women fighting next to them. It says something that their one reason to keep going is to protect the other ones thrown into the meat grinder. Anyway, to comment on the NY Times piece I think they could have done a much better job. It looked to me as if they just muttled something together real quick. What happend to the times, it just isnt the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nati Ice Posted March 25, 2008 Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 [quote name='CincyInDC' post='645899' date='Mar 24 2008, 11:38 PM']Can anyone say it's a small price to pay? Or justify it some other way?[/quote] i hate to be the one to do this, but it truly is a remarkably low number. for all of the fucked up shit this administration has put service members through it is nothing short of amazing that only 4000 have perished in this flawed war/occupation. we can thank talent, tenacity, and technology for the relatively low amount of casualties, and we can thank the administration for putting them into this situation. we truly have the greatest military the world has ever seen. with that said, i cant for the life of me figure out why this moron hasnt been impeached yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted March 25, 2008 Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 [quote name='CincyInDC' post='645899' date='Mar 25 2008, 12:38 AM']Can anyone say it's a small price to pay? Or justify it some other way?[/quote] 4000 was a couple of hours worth in Normandy. It's a damn good thing this generation wasn't in charge back in the 40's. Those of us east of the Mississippi would be speaking German and those on the west Japanese. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer_Rice Posted March 25, 2008 Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 [quote name='Jason' post='646014' date='Mar 25 2008, 01:14 PM']4000 was a couple of hours worth in Normandy.[/quote] Actually, no. [quote]It's a damn good thing this generation wasn't in charge back in the 40's. Those of us east of the Mississippi would be speaking German and those on the west Japanese.[/quote] Actually, no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScarletKnight Posted March 25, 2008 Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 [quote name='Jason' post='646014' date='Mar 25 2008, 12:14 PM']4000 was a couple of hours worth in Normandy. It's a damn good thing this generation wasn't in charge back in the 40's. Those of us east of the Mississippi would be speaking German and those on the west Japanese.[/quote] And just to add something else, it shouldn't take a large number to get people's eyes to open up. We are inundated with numbers all day everyday by the media, so much so that numbers seem to do nothing but numb us to what the reality is. I am sorry but the death of 4,000 bothers me the same as it does the death of 40,000 the same as 400,000 the same as 4. I saw a program on Bio last night called "I survived" it was absolutely an amazing program. Real people tell you their real survival stories and it takes you into their minds and what they are thinking while they faced death. I was touched by what these people were saying about the strength of humans and the perspective they have on life that they did not before. It was not ok when the death toll hit 1 and it will not be ok until people stop being killed, end of story. I hope that it won't just take a number to satisfy people to that truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted March 25, 2008 Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 [quote name='Homer_Rice' post='646031' date='Mar 25 2008, 02:11 PM']Actually, no. Actually, no.[/quote] Well, I learned something today. When they say "10,000 casualties" they don't mean all deaths. Still, in 1 day in WWII the allies lost over 2500 men. It took us [b]several years[/b] to accumulate that many deaths in Iraq. That's still an amazingly LOW number. And, no, Japan and Germany likely would not have conquered the world. That was hyperbole. I'm sure you are familiar with that term. But if that generation were as weak as this one, that war would have had a different outcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer_Rice Posted March 25, 2008 Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 [quote name='Jason' post='646048' date='Mar 25 2008, 04:23 PM']But if that generation were as weak as this one, that war would have had a different outcome.[/quote] And if that generation were around today, this war would never have been started. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nati Ice Posted March 25, 2008 Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 [quote name='Jason' post='646048' date='Mar 25 2008, 03:23 PM']But if that generation were as weak as this one, that war would have had a different outcome.[/quote] and you base this conjecture on what, exactly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|BlackJesus| Posted March 25, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 [quote name='Nati Ice' post='646007' date='Mar 25 2008, 12:48 PM']it is nothing short of amazing that only 4000 have perished in this flawed war/occupation.[/quote] [b]This war has a ratio of 15 wounded for every death in Iraq, compared to 2.6 wounded per death in Vietnam. Advances in battlefield medicine and more protective gear for troops and more armorized vehicles mean more injured troops survive. But it also leaves a much larger percentage of survivors with serious injuries. The figures also reveal that [size=3]had the Iraq casualties occurred under Vietnam conditions, the Iraq war would have produced [size=4]23,000 deaths[/size][/size] thus far instead of 4,000 (15 wounded / 2.6 wounded = 5.77 x 4,000 deaths = 23,000 deaths). - The official wounded US soldier count of this war thus far is 29,451. - These figures also do not count private contractors who have died in Iraq which are not counted. - These figures also do not count soldiers who die in hospitals after leaving Iraq. [/b] [quote name='Jason' post='646014' date='Mar 25 2008, 01:14 PM']Those of us east of the Mississippi would be speaking German and those on the west Japanese.[/quote] [b]1. This slogan is just as dumb and absurd today ... as the other 200 times I have heard someone [i](usually who has never served a day in their life)[/i] say it. [/b] [quote name='Jason' post='646048' date='Mar 25 2008, 04:23 PM']When they say "10,000 casualties" they don't mean all deaths.[/quote] [b]Exactly ... thus far the US military has over 33,000 casualties in Iraq. [/b] [quote name='Jason' post='646048' date='Mar 25 2008, 04:23 PM']Still, in 1 day in WWII the allies lost over 2500 men. It took us [b]several years[/b] to accumulate that many deaths in Iraq. That's still an amazingly LOW number.[/quote] [b]Well in that case ... more children starve to death every day in the world than the # of people who died in 9/11. So maybe we shouldn't care about such low numbers? Take that Toby Keith ! :hmm:[/b] [quote name='Jason' post='646048' date='Mar 25 2008, 04:23 PM']And, no, Japan and Germany likely would not have conquered [s]the world.[/s][/quote] [b]- The other allies would have defeated Germany eventually on their own (mainly Russia). - The US developed Nuclear weapons ... which we could have used to wipe them both out completely. [/b] [quote name='Homer_Rice' post='646053' date='Mar 25 2008, 04:35 PM']And if that generation were around today, this war would never have been started.[/quote] [b]Bingo ... they would have greeted Bush with a "Mussolini welcome"[/b] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CincyInDC Posted March 25, 2008 Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 [quote name='Jason' post='646014' date='Mar 25 2008, 01:14 PM']4000 was a couple of hours worth in Normandy. It's a damn good thing this generation wasn't in charge back in the 40's. Those of us east of the Mississippi would be speaking German and those on the west Japanese.[/quote] WWII would have been a war worth fighting in, and I would have done so willingly. I'd have shit my pants once or twice but I would have done my part. This war, not so much. But hey, the maximum enlistment age keeps catching up with me...you know what? I think I'll join up! Politicians don't have the nuts to say it (well, one of them did and was lambasted for it), but these 4,000 kids died for NO GOOD, WORTHY REASON. 1 life lost in this clusterfuck would have been 1 life too many. Trotz unser Sieg im zweitem Weltkrieg, spreche ich jedenfalls Deutsch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CTBengalsFan Posted March 25, 2008 Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 [quote name='Jason' post='646048' date='Mar 25 2008, 04:23 PM']And, no, Japan and Germany likely would not have conquered the world. That was hyperbole. I'm sure you are familiar with that term. But if that generation were as weak as this one, that war would have had a different outcome.[/quote] [img]http://img352.imageshack.us/img352/9633/rolleyes1ei.gif[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted March 25, 2008 Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 [quote name='ScarletKnight' post='646042' date='Mar 25 2008, 03:48 PM']And just to add something else, it shouldn't take a large number to get people's eyes to open up. We are inundated with numbers all day everyday by the media, so much so that numbers seem to do nothing but numb us to what the reality is. I am sorry but the death of 4,000 bothers me the same as it does the death of 40,000 the same as 400,000 the same as 4. I saw a program on Bio last night called "I survived" it was absolutely an amazing program. Real people tell you their real survival stories and it takes you into their minds and what they are thinking while they faced death. I was touched by what these people were saying about the strength of humans and the perspective they have on life that they did not before. It was not ok when the death toll hit 1 and it will not be ok until people stop being killed, end of story. I hope that it won't just take a number to satisfy people to that truth.[/quote] You want depressing go visit the psych ward of a military hospital where these guys are comming back to deal with PTSD. I did that, not fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Elflocko| Posted March 25, 2008 Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 [quote name='Jamie_B' post='646091' date='Mar 25 2008, 06:43 PM']You want depressing go visit the psych ward of a military hospital where these guys are comming back to deal with PTSD. I did that, not fun.[/quote] Sometimes death isn't the worst thing that can happen... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted March 25, 2008 Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 [quote name='Elflocko' post='646093' date='Mar 25 2008, 05:50 PM']Sometimes death isn't the worst thing that can happen...[/quote] Indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Bunghole| Posted March 25, 2008 Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 My cousin, a highly decorated Bosnia and Iraq vet (and a former member of the tough-ass 10th Mountain Division), is strung out on crack, and he explains it as a means of dealing with anger issues (and he's been diagnosed with PTSS). He says that sometimes he feels like going on a killing rampage, and it's scary when he says it because he means it. He also had to wait a LONG time to get his war-injured shoulder surgically repaired (Humvee accident as a result of an IED explosion), has had to hurdle mountains of red tape to get his disability amounts set and get payments, and has bee through intensive rehab. Last night he called me from a crack house in downtown Nati asking me for $200, because he'd done more crack than he could pay for, and the dope boys wouldn't let him leave (showing him guns and shit). I turned him down (because he would have immedately tried to establish more credit with the drug dealers), and somehow he managed to negotiate a solution. Don't know what it was. So, he doesn't factor as an official casualty statistic, but there are many like him, psychologically damaged, drug-addicted, etc. It's depressing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer_Rice Posted March 26, 2008 Report Share Posted March 26, 2008 [quote name='Bunghole' post='646100' date='Mar 25 2008, 07:05 PM']My cousin, a highly decorated Bosnia and Iraq vet (and a former member of the tough-ass 10th Mountain Division), is strung out on crack, and he explains it as a means of dealing with anger issues (and he's been diagnosed with PTSS). He says that sometimes he feels like going on a killing rampage, and it's scary when he says it because he means it. He also had to wait a LONG time to get his war-injured shoulder surgically repaired (Humvee accident as a result of an IED explosion), has had to hurdle mountains of red tape to get his disability amounts set and get payments, and has bee through intensive rehab. Last night he called me from a crack house in downtown Nati asking me for $200, because he'd done more crack than he could pay for, and the dope boys wouldn't let him leave (showing him guns and shit). I turned him down (because he would have immedately tried to establish more credit with the drug dealers), and somehow he managed to negotiate a solution. Don't know what it was. So, he doesn't factor as an official casualty statistic, but there are many like him, psychologically damaged, drug-addicted, etc. It's depressing.[/quote] That's sad, Bung. I hope he makes his way out to some kind of grace with himself. I occasionally cross paths with a former Captain who served in the 10th, one of the most bad-ass non-Ranger types I've ever met. He's not a fan of this war, either, though he vacillates between not having gone at all and the full-commitment control the ground approach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Bunghole| Posted March 26, 2008 Report Share Posted March 26, 2008 [quote name='Homer_Rice' post='646135' date='Mar 25 2008, 07:46 PM']That's sad, Bung. I hope he makes his way out to some kind of grace with himself. I occasionally cross paths with a former Captain who served in the 10th, one of the most bad-ass non-Ranger types I've ever met. He's not a fan of this war, either, though he vacillates between not having gone at all and the full-commitment control the ground approach.[/quote] Thanks for the kind words. The crazy thing is that if you ever met him, or hung out with him at the family get-togethers at "The General's House" (my Dad...the cousin is my Mom's sister's son and they live really close to one another) you would never know it. Affable, eats a TON of food (running family joke about seconds and thirds, etc), would never steal or damage his immediate family, but...a crackhead when the mood strikes him, which is alarmingly often these days. And he lives with his Mom, my aunt, and she's of the age where she doesn't know what to do with him. She cannot find it in her heart to kick him out, but yet he can't stay, if you know what I mean. he and I talk about the money he's getting at almost 100% disability from the Army, and that he's shopping for apartments, wants my old microwave and furniture on one day, and then days like last night happen. I can't make heads or tails of it, but I WILL NOT give him money to get high or pay his drug debts. He's 32 and has to learn to deal. I did. Man up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Elflocko| Posted March 26, 2008 Report Share Posted March 26, 2008 [quote name='Bunghole' post='646167' date='Mar 25 2008, 10:29 PM']Thanks for the kind words. The crazy thing is that if you ever met him, or hung out with him at the family get-togethers at "The General's House" (my Dad...the cousin is my Mom's sister's son and they live really close to one another) you would never know it. Affable, eats a TON of food (running family joke about seconds and thirds, etc), would never steal or damage his immediate family, but...a crackhead when the mood strikes him, which is alarmingly often these days. And he lives with his Mom, my aunt, and she's of the age where she doesn't know what to do with him. She cannot find it in her heart to kick him out, but yet he can't stay, if you know what I mean. he and I talk about the money he's getting at almost 100% disability from the Army, and that he's shopping for apartments, wants my old microwave and furniture on one day, and then days like last night happen. I can't make heads or tails of it, but I WILL NOT give him money to get high or pay his drug debts. He's 32 and has to learn to deal. I did. Man up.[/quote] Sheeit. That is just not a good situation no matter how you look at it. Damn, man. I'm glad you're sticking to your guns instead of enabling him, though. That's the only way he's ever going to get himself set straight... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BengalBacker Posted March 26, 2008 Report Share Posted March 26, 2008 If I'm wrong, I'm sure one of you will let me know , but did the government really do a lot for WWII vets? I don't think they did. Seems to me a big part of the problem with returning vets ever since Vietnam, is they aren't considered heroes the way WWII vets were. Add in the drugs that are out there today, and it's easy for many of them to self-destruct. The populace embraced WWII vets, paying for their meals, giving them jobs, etcetera. Today they're more likely to be shunned or worse. Sorry about your cousin Bung. Even though I'm not religious, I think religion can sometimes "save" people like him. Doesn't have to be true to be effective. Maybe try to steer him in that direction? Of course that has its own dangers. I don't know, he pretty much has to decide if he wants a life or not. At 32, it's really up to him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nati Ice Posted March 26, 2008 Report Share Posted March 26, 2008 [quote name='BengalBacker' post='646195' date='Mar 26 2008, 01:10 AM']If I'm wrong, I'm sure one of you will let me know , but did the government really do a lot for WWII vets? I don't think they did.[/quote]not nearly as much as they do now [quote name='BengalBacker' post='646195' date='Mar 26 2008, 01:10 AM']Seems to me a big part of the problem with returning vets ever since Vietnam, is they aren't considered heroes the way WWII vets were. Add in the drugs that are out there today, and it's easy for many of them to self-destruct.[/quote]maybe theyre not as revered today as they were in the 40s, but theyre certainly not looked down upon. besides, its hard to compare admiration for those fighting in iraq to the admiration felt for the men who risked their lives fighting facism and foreign invaders. both groups have sacrificed much, but i believe its indisputable that ww2 was a far more necessary and righteous war than the invasion of iraq. ...drugs werent exactly absent in the 40s and 50s either, they just went by other names or were simply overlooked and under reported. [quote name='BengalBacker' post='646195' date='Mar 26 2008, 01:10 AM']The populace embraced WWII vets, paying for their meals, giving them jobs, etcetera. Today they're more likely to be shunned or worse.[/quote]thats all conjecture that i just wont believe, this isnt vietnam were talking about. even those in stark opposition to this administration and this war are very much for those in the service. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DontPushMe Posted March 28, 2008 Report Share Posted March 28, 2008 [quote name='CincyInDC' post='645899' date='Mar 24 2008, 11:38 PM']Can anyone say it's a small price to pay? Or justify it some other way?[/quote] According to Dick, the 4000 men and women who have went over there and died for nothing have it easier than George Bush. I think both of these men should be impeached, even though theyll be out of office soon, they need to be impeached so no one will ever forget how terrible they were. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer_Rice Posted March 28, 2008 Report Share Posted March 28, 2008 [quote name='DontPushMe' post='646761' date='Mar 28 2008, 03:21 AM']According to Dick, the 4000 men and women who have went over there and died for nothing have it easier than George Bush. I think both of these men should be impeached, even though theyll be out of office soon, they need to be impeached so no one will ever forget how terrible they were.[/quote] Makes one wish for some form of lawful exile and ostracising like the ancients had. Make them pariahs when they leave public service. If they come to your store, don't accept their money; if they come to your restaurant, don't serve them. If you see them on the street, shun them. I saw something the other day which more or less said, "My husband died in Iraq and all I got was this lousy t-shirt saying 'So?'" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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