No surprises when ranking the top QBs in the NFL - Scouts Inc.

[fredtoast]

[quote name='BengalsOwn' post='677836' date='Jul 9 2008, 09:52 AM']That I agree with 100%. Carson has been nothing but a choker except for that one game against the Ravens, and that game against the Dolphins.[/quote]

Someone help me out here. The search engine on this site sucks. I once posted the long list of Carson's fourth quarter comebacks, but I can't find it now.

Off the top of my head I know that in the final two game of '06 Carson lead great final minute drives that should have tied the Denver game (td pass to TJ with seconds left) and won the Pitt game (set up game winning FG from 20 yd line) if our kicking team hadn't screwed up the XP and and chip-shot FG.

There are many more, but I don't have the time to go back and look them up again.

[ccartman2]

[quote name='fredtoast' post='677861' date='Jul 9 2008, 10:51 AM']Someone help me out here. The search engine on this site sucks. I once posted the long list of Carson's fourth quarter comebacks, but I can't find it now.

Off the top of my head I know that in the final two game of '06 Carson lead great final minute drives that should have tied the Denver game (td pass to TJ with seconds left) and won the Pitt game (set up game winning FG from 20 yd line) if our kicking team hadn't screwed up the XP and and chip-shot FG.

There are many more, but I don't have the time to go back and look them up again.[/quote]

Seattle last year was one, and even the Cleveland game he brought us back countless number of times only to have the D choke on it. He still might have done it again if Bodden hadn't made a great pick on the sideline.

Yes he has been disappointing at times, but where QB's are usually asked to do it once in a game, our D has asked Palmer to do it multiple number of times.

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='fredtoast' post='677861' date='Jul 9 2008, 10:51 AM']Someone help me out here. The search engine on this site sucks. I once posted the long list of Carson's fourth quarter comebacks, but I can't find it now.

Off the top of my head I know that in the final two game of '06 Carson lead great final minute drives that should have tied the Denver game (td pass to TJ with seconds left) and won the Pitt game (set up game winning FG from 20 yd line) if our kicking team hadn't screwed up the XP and and chip-shot FG.

There are many more, but I don't have the time to go back and look them up again.[/quote]


here's games I had posted awhile back of what he's done in 4th qtrs of close games both good and bad.

pit 06 -win- 2 TD's under 8 minutes to take 11pt lead
car 06 -w- leads game winning TD with 8 mins left.
bal 06 -L- down 8, 3 minutes left - TO on downs
sd -L- leads them 45yds to sd 15, holt drops TD in endzone
den 06 -L- led team to potential game tying td
pit '06 -L- Led them to potential game winning FG


jax 05 -L- 45yd line, palmer fumble
indy 05 -L- INT 6 minutes left led to colt FG.
field goal with 1:23 left to pull within 8

clev 05 -W- led 45yd drive for game winning FG in last 4 minutes

jets 04 -L- led them 45yds, game ending INT (first start)
mia 04 -W- led game winning 49yd drive under 2 mins for FG
pit 04 -L- final 2 drives end in INT's.
cle 04 -L- 0 4th qtr points, down 7 entering
ten 04 -L- 0 points, down 7 on last 4 drives
pit 04 -L- 0 points in final 4 drives, only down 3
balt 04 -W- 24 4th qtr points, super clutch
cle 04 -W- game sealing TD in the shootout

[Actium]

[quote name='ccartman2' post='677864' date='Jul 9 2008, 10:55 AM']Seattle last year was one, and even the Cleveland game he brought us back countless number of times only to have the D choke on it. He still might have done it again if Bodden hadn't made a great pick on the sideline.

Yes he has been disappointing at times, but where QB's are usually asked to do it once in a game, our D has asked Palmer to do it multiple number of times.[/quote]

True, I guess if the D had held for 1 more series it would have been a lot different, with him engineering way more wins.

[bammorrisgotmehigh]

Why does everyone here give such a shit???????? Who cares what the fuck some hack thinks on some stupid article in the middle of Summer.


They are both fucking good.

I'm happy with Ben, you are happy with Carson.

be glad we are not the Bills, Jets, Dolphins, Ravens, Chiefs, Vikings, etc............


They would give a left nut to have either.


It will all play out here soon.







Oh, yea.............................





SWEEP

[bgwilly31]

Pure talent list

1.) Manning
2.) Palmer
3.) brady
who cares after that.

Worthlessberger would be far down the list.

[New Jersey Bengal]

[quote name='bgwilly31' post='677911' date='Jul 9 2008, 02:50 PM']Pure talent list

1.) Manning
2.) Palmer
3.) brady
who cares after that.

Worthlessberger would be far down the list.[/quote]
[b]PALMER IS A FANTASTIC QB ..IF WE HAD ANY SEMBLANCE OF A DEFENSE WE WOULD HAVE WON A SUPER BOWL ALREADY..AS MUCH AS DISLIKE THE SQUEALERS IF WE HAD THEIR D WE WOULD HAVE WON TWO SUPER BOWLS ALREADY..HANDS DOWN...[/b]

[b]AND WHOEVER SAYS THAT PALMER DOES NOT HAVE BALLS IS NOT THINKING CLEARLY. HE SHOWED WHAT KIND OF MAN HE IS WHEN AND HOW QUICKLY HE CAME BACK FROM HIS KNEE INJURY...PALMER IS ALL CLASS ..I WISH THE BENGALS HAD 53 PLAYERS ON THEIR ROSTER WITH HIS HEART....[/b]

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='New Jersey Bengal' post='677916' date='Jul 9 2008, 02:17 PM'][b]PALMER IS A FANTASTIC QB ..IF WE HAD ANY SEMBLANCE OF A DEFENSE WE WOULD HAVE WON A SUPER BOWL ALREADY..AS MUCH AS DISLIKE THE SQUEALERS IF WE HAD THEIR D WE WOULD HAVE WON TWO SUPER BOWLS ALREADY..HANDS DOWN...[/b]

[b]AND WHOEVER SAYS THAT PALMER DOES NOT HAVE BALLS IS NOT THINKING CLEARLY. HE SHOWED WHAT KIND OF MAN HE IS WHEN AND HOW QUICKLY HE CAME BACK FROM HIS KNEE INJURY...PALMER IS ALL CLASS ..I WISH THE BENGALS HAD 53 PLAYERS ON THEIR ROSTER WITH HIS HEART....[/b][/quote]


[size=7]WHY ARE YOU YELLING?!?!?![/size]

[Arkansas Bengal]

[quote name='bammorrisgotmehigh' post='677897' date='Jul 9 2008, 11:40 AM']Why does everyone here give such a shit???????? Who cares what the fuck some hack thinks on some stupid article in the middle of Summer.


They are both fucking good.

I'm happy with Ben, you are happy with Carson.

be glad we are not the Bills, Jets, Dolphins, Ravens, Chiefs, Vikings, etc............


They would give a left nut to have either.


It will all play out here soon.







Oh, yea.............................





SWEEP [/quote]


Oh yea...........................


FUCK YOU!

[Phatcat]

[quote name='bammorrisgotmehigh' post='677897' date='Jul 9 2008, 01:40 PM']Why does everyone here give such a shit???????? Who cares what the fuck some hack thinks on some stupid article in the middle of Summer.


They are both fucking good.

I'm happy with Ben, you are happy with Carson.

be glad we are not the Bills, Jets, Dolphins, Ravens, Chiefs, Vikings, etc............


They would give a left nut to have either.


It will all play out here soon.







Oh, yea.............................





SWEEP [/quote]

It is the offseason. But that being said, I think they have the top 5 correct, but the order is certainly up for debate IMHO. I would put Manning first - no doubt - IMHO. Brady is good, but I don't think he would fair better in Cincy, Pitt, or NO than what the current teams are posting in the win-loss column.

Other than above, I am not going to make an arguement for any of the QB's. They are all better than the rest of the league and I am one fan that is very happy my fav team has one of the best.

[fdsannie]

[quote name='oldschooler' post='677793' date='Jul 9 2008, 06:48 AM']Actually, it's not the exact same post. But everything I posted is saved 'somewhere'
on this board.

And what does it matter? Facts are still facts.





Carson is the 5th fastest QB in NFL HISTORY to throw 100 TDs.
He has broken many franchise records.

The Bengals had the 24th ranked rushing Offense in 2007.
They had 3 games, where a RB went over 100 yards.

Our #3 reciever was our 4th string RB.
The Stealers #3 and #4 recievers had more catches,
than our real #3 WR and our TE did.


The reason Carson was 3rd in pass attempts, and was tied
for the lead in INTs was because he didn`t have a TE threat,
no viable #3 WR and no running attack. Again, he WAS the Offense.

Out of Carson`s 373 completions, 205 of them were to 2 recievers.
That is well over 50%.

Out of Ben`s 264 completions, 123 of them were to 2 recievers.
That`s well under 50%.

Carson had almost as many completions to 2 recievers, as Ben
had to 5 Stealer recievers. In other words, Carson was forced
to get the ball to 2 players, because he didn't have anymore options.





I understand that you like Ben, and I agree he helps the Stealers win.
But when the game is put onto his shoulders, he folds like a cheap lawn chair.

Anyway, why have this disagreement again? Obviously I'm not going to convince you
that Carson is a better all around QB.[/quote]

But when the game is put onto his shoulders, he folds like a cheap lawn chair.
And you don't think that about Palmer? Are you blind? Palmer has happy feet and you can see when he gets rattled that he falls apart!

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='fdsannie' post='677984' date='Jul 9 2008, 09:46 PM']But when the game is put onto his shoulders, he folds like a cheap lawn chair.
And you don't think that about Palmer? Are you blind? Palmer has happy feet and you can see when he gets rattled that he falls apart![/quote]


welcome to the site troll. History, and decent eyeballs would suggest otherwise. While he has faltered at times, Carson has led the team down in crunch time many times. Missed field goals (pit 06), botched FG snaps (denver 06), fumbled kickoffs (sea 07), defensive collapses (also sea 07 and cle 07) and dropped balls in the endzone (sf 07 and sd 06) tend to hide the whole story and are out of Carson's control. Most times, a QB only seems as clutch as the players around him. That's why they call it a team sport.

[|Bengal Migration|]

If only Palmer avoided contact like some of you boneheads are claiming. He might have avoided Kimo in the playoff game instead of stepping into the throw and connecting on that pass to Henry. Then they both (Palmer and Henry) would have lasted more than 2 snaps in that game, and the stoolers wouldn't have won a single playoff game that year, much less a SB*

[TheBeaverHunter]

[quote name='SF2' post='677819' date='Jul 9 2008, 08:32 AM']You can throw all the stats out there you want but Carson has had perhaps the most talented receivers in the NFL the last 5 years. I hate to even say this but Kitna did pretty well with those receivers his last year here and he has nothing on Palmer.[/quote]


Brat is the issue here, I believe he really limits this offense. God I wish he would leave so you guys who think teams would be lining up would really see what the league thinks of him. I compare him to Rivera, he produced top 10 rankings, but it was because of his player's talent, not his coaching skills. Bears let Rivera go and you see how many teams "lined up for him".


***Brat fan insert Seahawks 1 year ranking here****

[Quaker]

The Ben/Carson thing is stupid, nothing more than a bunch of Bengals/Steeler MB wankers bitching at each other, who gives a fuck.

Carson ain't all that he's made out to be, I cringe every time he has to go on a 4th quarter, 3:00 drill to try and win a game. In that situation, I'd honestly put my money on Carson to throw an Int rather than actually win the game, and I'm a damn Bengals fan.

As to Ben, the dude got a SB ring with a [b]TWENTY-TWO (22)[/b] QB rating. If anything says "This guy didn't do shit to help his team win the game" I don't know what does. Also, whats it say when Charlie Batch can step into or even start a game and have a high QB rating as well?

And as to Bens "great mobility", I don't get why defensemen in the NFL don't understand that you simply can't drag down the big boy that Ben is. Bens "mobilty" should more credited to the idiot defensemen who think they can shirt tackle him.

Don't let your team colored glasses get in the way of seeing what each one is.

And the damn stealers fan has the best bit of advice in this thread:
[quote]I'm happy with Ben, you are happy with Carson.

be glad we are not the Bills, Jets, Dolphins, Ravens, Chiefs, Vikings, etc............[/quote]

[TheBeaverHunter]

[quote name='Quaker' post='678027' date='Jul 10 2008, 10:31 AM']The Ben/Carson thing is stupid, nothing more than a bunch of Bengals/Steeler MB wankers bitching at each other, who gives a fuck.

Carson ain't all that he's made out to be, I cringe every time he has to go on a 4th quarter, 3:00 drill to try and win a game. In that situation, I'd honestly put my money on Carson to throw an Int rather than actually win the game, and I'm a damn Bengals fan.

As to Ben, the dude got a SB ring with a [b]TWENTY-TWO (22)[/b] QB rating. If anything says "This guy didn't do shit to help his team win the game" I don't know what does. Also, whats it say when Charlie Batch can step into or even start a game and have a high QB rating as well?

And as to Bens "great mobility", I don't get why defensemen in the NFL don't understand that you simply can't drag down the big boy that Ben is. Bens "mobilty" should more credited to the idiot defensemen who think they can shirt tackle him.

Don't let your team colored glasses get in the way of seeing what each one is.

And the damn stealers fan has the best bit of advice in this thread:[/quote]

I have to say I agree.

[oldschooler]

[quote name='fdsannie' post='677984' date='Jul 9 2008, 08:46 PM']But when the game is put onto his shoulders, he folds like a cheap lawn chair.
And you don't think that about Palmer? Are you blind? Palmer has happy feet and you can see when he gets rattled that he falls apart![/quote]



I was talking about the ridiculous stat of Ben's where he is
something like 3-10 0r something (I can't remember the exact stat),
when he is forced to throw 30 or more passes per game.
Something Palmer does all the time. As do other top QBs
like Manning, Brady, Brees ect.

There was a thread on this board about it last season.



[quote name='Quaker' post='678027' date='Jul 10 2008, 09:31 AM']The Ben/Carson thing is stupid, nothing more than a bunch of Bengals/Steeler MB wankers bitching at each other, who gives a fuck.

Carson ain't all that he's made out to be, I cringe every time he has to go on a 4th quarter, 3:00 drill to try and win a game. In that situation, I'd honestly put my money on Carson to throw an Int rather than actually win the game, and I'm a damn Bengals fan.

As to Ben, the dude got a SB ring with a [b]TWENTY-TWO (22)[/b] QB rating. If anything says "This guy didn't do shit to help his team win the game" I don't know what does. Also, whats it say when Charlie Batch can step into or even start a game and have a high QB rating as well?

And as to Bens "great mobility", I don't get why defensemen in the NFL don't understand that you simply can't drag down the big boy that Ben is. Bens "mobilty" should more credited to the idiot defensemen who think they can shirt tackle him.

Don't let your team colored glasses get in the way of seeing what each one is.

And the damn stealers fan has the best bit of advice in this thread:[/quote]


Most of the replies I have to this thread are to Bengals fans (Joe Pong and SF2).
So, so much from a bunch of rival 'wankers' going back and forth . . .

[oftt4]

[quote name='oldschooler' post='677793' date='Jul 9 2008, 06:48 AM']I understand that you like Ben, and I agree he helps the Stealers win.
But when the game is put onto his shoulders, he folds like a cheap lawn chair.[/quote]

[quote name='Bengals1181' post='677869' date='Jul 9 2008, 11:02 AM']here's games I had posted awhile back of what he's done in 4th qtrs of close games both good and bad.

pit 06 -win- 2 TD's under 8 minutes to take 11pt lead
car 06 -w- leads game winning TD with 8 mins left.
bal 06 -L- down 8, 3 minutes left - TO on downs
sd -L- leads them 45yds to sd 15, holt drops TD in endzone
den 06 -L- led team to potential game tying td
pit '06 -L- Led them to potential game winning FG


jax 05 -L- 45yd line, palmer fumble
indy 05 -L- INT 6 minutes left led to colt FG.
field goal with 1:23 left to pull within 8

clev 05 -W- led 45yd drive for game winning FG in last 4 minutes

jets 04 -L- led them 45yds, game ending INT (first start)
mia 04 -W- led game winning 49yd drive under 2 mins for FG
pit 04 -L- final 2 drives end in INT's.
cle 04 -L- 0 4th qtr points, down 7 entering
ten 04 -L- 0 points, down 7 on last 4 drives
pit 04 -L- 0 points in final 4 drives, only down 3
balt 04 -W- 24 4th qtr points, super clutch
cle 04 -W- game sealing TD in the shootout[/quote]

And the same for Ben (I'll assume "close games" are 1 score differential at some point in the 4th quarter)

[u]2004[/u]

Week 3 against Miami in "torrential rain". Steelers are ahead 6-3 with 13 minutes left in the 4th QTR. From that point on Ben went 4 for 6, for 48 yards 1 TD pass, 0 INT's. Steelers won 13 - 3.

Week 4 against the Bengals. Steelers are behind by 3 entering the 4th QTR. In the 4th, Ben went 4/4 for 26 yards, 0 TD's, 0 INT's. Pittsburgh won on a JB touchdown and a Polamalu INT TD.

Week 6 against Dallas. Steelers are down by 10 going into the 4th QTR. In the 4th, Ben went 8/8 for 62 yards, 1TD, 0 INT's. Pittsburgh won 24-20.

Week 11 against the Bengals. Steelers are ahead by 3 going into the 4th QTR. In the 4th, Ben went 3/4 for 20 yards, 0 TD's, 0 INT's. Pittsburgh won 19-14.

Week 12 against Washington. Steelers are ahead by 6 going into the 4th QTR. In the 4th, Ben went 2/5 for 32 yards, 0 TD's, 0 INT's. Pittsburgh won 16 to 7.

Week 13 against Jax. Steelers are ahead by 1 going into the 4th QTR (and down by 2 with 2 minutes left). In the 4th, Ben went 5/6 for 62 yards, 0 TD, 0 INT (including 3/4 for 39 yards with 1:50 left to set up the game winning FG). Steelers won 17-16.

Week 14 against the Jets. Game tied going into the 4th QTR. In the 4th, Ben went 2/3 for 52 yards, 0 TD, 0 INT. The Steelers won 17-6.

Week 15 against the Giants. Steelers are down by 1 going into the 4th QTR. In the 4th, Ben went 6/7 for 74 yards, 0 TD, 0 INT. The Steelers won 33-30.


So in Ben's rookie year, his "folding like a cheap lawn chair" consisted of going 26/35 for 314 yards, 1 TD, 0 INT in the 4th quarter of close games. That equates to a passer rating of 110.9 The Steelers went 8-0 in those games.

Ben's numbers for his 2nd year in the 4th QTR of close games: 24/38 for 273 yards, 3 TD, 1 INT. That equates to a passer rating of 100.0 The Steelers went 2-2 in those games.

Ben's numbers for his 3rd year in the 4th QTR of close games: 74/123 for 979 yards, 4 TD, 5 INT. That equates to a passer rating of 79.3 The Steelers went 3-5 in those games.

Ben's numbers for his 4th year in the 4th QTR of close games: 50/75 for 599 yards, 6 TD, 1 INT. That equates to a passer rating of 112.0 The Steelers went 5-4 in those games.


So essentially, the only time when Ben consistently let his team down when the game was on the line was in 2006, which happens to be the same season he crashed his motorcycle, had appendicitis, and got a concussion. Coincidence?

Honestly, where do you get the idea that Ben folds under pressure? I am not starting an argument...I am not saying Palmer folds under pressure....I just want to know what makes you think Ben does.

[Randle P McMurphy]

I'd say those rankings at least the top 5 are pretty spot on. The top 3 all have superbowl rings regardless
of how they were won. Brees took the Aints to a NFC Championship game. Palmer was 1 and done in the
playoffs although if not for the injury it may have been different but woulda, coulda and shoulda doesnt
win superbowls.

Individual stats dont mean squat if the team as a whole isnt successful. Unless of course if you're that
individual player.

[|Lucid|]

[quote name='Randle P McMurphy' post='678198' date='Jul 11 2008, 09:22 AM']I'd say those rankings at least the top 5 are pretty spot on. The top 3 all have superbowl rings regardless
of how they were won. Brees took the Aints to a NFC Championship game. Palmer was 1 and done in the
playoffs although if not for the injury it may have been different but woulda, coulda and shoulda doesnt
win superbowls.

[b]Individual stats dont mean squat if the team as a whole isnt successful. Unless of course if you're that
individual player.[/b][/quote]


That would be an accurate statement except for the fact that we aren't talking about a team.. We are talking about the ability of an individual.

Now if you are comparing CAREERS as a whole, then the success of the team is relevant.. But to pretend it isn't possible that a tremendous talent can be squandered away on a horrible team or that a subpar player could ride the coattails of a great team is ignorant.

In these cases the accomplishments of the team are entirely irrelevant when discussing the abilities of a single player.

Keep it real please.

[oldschooler]

[quote name='oftt4' post='678190' date='Jul 11 2008, 06:44 AM']Honestly, where do you get the idea that Ben folds under pressure? I am not starting an argument...I am not saying Palmer folds under pressure....I just want to know what makes you think Ben does.[/quote]


This stat was posted in November 2007. The link it came from is now dead.
The thread it was posted in, is not dead though.

[quote]Ben Roethlisberger is just 3-10 in his career when throwing 30 or more passes in a game and 31-4 when throwing less than 30.[/quote]

[url="http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/7371074"]http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/7371074[/url]



More posts from that thread, that is about this same subject. . .


[quote name='ColdGinAgain' post='587891' date='Nov 6 2007, 05:27 PM']Nevermind the fact that 14 of those passes came before halftime. But let's dig deeper into this bullshit theory some people have.

15 games played yesterday. 30 offenses.

18 of those offenses threw more then 30 passes. 6 of them won. 33%. Not good.

Of the winners.....

Brady- had to come back from 10 down in the 4th.
Losman- Game was back and forth until the 4th
Brees- Very hard to run on Jacksonville.
Kitna- It's Mike Martz. Enough said.
Anderson- Come from behind win in the 4th.
Favre- Come from behind AND has little run support.

The point is that MOST of the time when ANY team throws more then 30 times... more often then not they are trying to stage a comeback, or have little to no running game. And the occasional shootout.

I beg you please make me a list of consistent WINNING QB's who throw more then 30 times a game.[/quote]


[quote name='oldschooler' post='587910' date='Nov 6 2007, 05:49 PM']Ben is 20th in the NFL for pass attempts.
The Stealers have the 19th ranked Passing Offense.

All but 2 of the QBs that are in the top 12
for pass attempts have a .500 or better record.
And every Division leader except for one
(I``ve already told you which one) is
in the top 12 for pass attempts.

Both of Ben`s highest passing yardage
games came in losses this season.
And in both of those games, Willie
Parker failed to reach the 100 yard mark.

The fact is, the Stealers have never been winning
because Ben is an Elite QB. They`ve been winning
because of their Defense and running game.
And that`s the way it has always has been with him.[/quote]


[quote name='ColdGinAgain' post='587954' date='Nov 6 2007, 07:00 PM']You're the one that's throwing the magic number of 30 out there. So again.. show me a CONSISTENT WINNING QB who throws 30 or more times a game. I'll give ya Brady this year simply because Belicheck is running it up on teams. By and large, teams that need 30 passes a game... don't win championships. As a Bengal fan I'd think you'd figure that out by now.


So because Ben doesn't throw as much as the other guys, he surely can't be considered elite huh? Nevermind the fact that in the Steelers 6 wins Ben threw 141 passes. Of those.... only 44 came in the second half. Because the need to pass wasn't there. It's nice to have a team that can do that. I realize you've never really experienced that.... but it doesn't make Ben any less of a QB.

But it's all good. You just keep calling him a game manager... and the Steelers will just keep winning division titles and going to the playoffs.[/quote]


[quote name='oldschooler' post='587972' date='Nov 6 2007, 07:26 PM']You just fucking named one !

Tom Brady. 9 games, 355 pass attempts = 33 attempts per game.

Want another ?? Drew Brees. 8 games, 335 pass attempts = 41 attempts per game.
Want another ?? Brett Farve. 8 games, 308 pass attempts = 38.5 attempts per game.
Want another ?? Tony Romo. 8 games, 264 pass attempts = 33 attempts per game.
Want another ?? Peyton Manning. 8 games, 259 pass attempts = 32 attempts per game.
Want another ?? Derek Anderson. 8 games, 257 pass attempts = 32 attempts per game.
Want another ?? Jon Kitna. 8 games, 253 pass attempts = 31 pass attempts per game.
Want another ?? Eli Manning. 8 games, 249 pass attempts = 31 pass attempts per game.

Here is a link to the list of QBs . . .

[url="http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats;jsessionid=2108BECD159638D1274D0A1A633B7C17?season=2007&seasonType=REG&d-447263-o=2&statisticPositionCategory=QUARTERBACK&qualified=true&tabSeq=1&d-447263-p=1&d-447263-s=PASSING_ATTEMPTS&d-447263-n=1"]http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats;jse...mp;d-447263-n=1[/url]


Here is a link to the division standings and records . . .

[url="http://www.nfl.com/standings"]http://www.nfl.com/standings[/url]

All but one of those QBs has a winning record, and the one that doesn`t
is QBing a .500 team that has won 4 games in a row.



Secondly, the Stealers won their tainted Championship
with a QB that had the lowest rating in Super Bowl history.





Dispute the facts. You`re entitled to your own opinion.
You are not entitled to make up your own fucking facts though.

Now eat shit. [/quote]


[quote name='ColdGinAgain' post='588025' date='Nov 6 2007, 09:21 PM']Wow... I sure do see some great running offenses there.... oh wait... no I don't. I see one. Indy.

Awesome defenses there too... ohh... wait. Maybe a couple of decent D's... hmmm.

Brees is 4-4. that's not a consistent winner.
Anderson is 4-3. Not real consistent there either. Both teams have no defense. So they have to keep passing to keep up.

Farve has a shitty ground game.

Brady wouldn't be on the list if the Pats didn't run it up every game.

Kitna... No defense, marginal running game. Mike Martz. But by your fucked logic he is elite.

Eli... Marginal running game, weak defense.

I'll review for the slow minded. I said[b] "The point is that MOST of the time when ANY team throws more then 30 times... more often then not they are trying to stage a comeback, or have little to no running game. And the occasional shootout. "[/b]

Disoute this FACT- Over his 4 year career, the MAJORITY (that means more then 50%) of Ben's passes come in the 1st half.
Dispute this FACT-Ben has better stats then Carson in almost every category this season.
Dispute this FACT-Using your own formula of averages... If Ben had as many attmepts as Carson... Ben's numbers would be better.
Dispute this FACT- Ben has a Ring. and 3 out of 4 winning seasons. Carson has no rings, 1 winning season.

Oh, and Ben has More TD's and a higher rating then ALL of the QB's you listed.

Bottom line... and what I have said all along. Ben is a great QB. Carson is a great QB. They each have strengths. They each have weaknesses.[/quote]


[quote name='oldschooler' post='588051' date='Nov 6 2007, 10:43 PM']I can`t believe you even responded to my post.
I would have thought more of you if you just went away.


You asked me TWICE to name some consistent winners
that have thrown 30 or more times a game. I named 7 QBs
that are winning, and quite a few of them are leading their
divisions or a game behind the 1st place teams.

Now you want to act like because they don`t have running games
or Defenses like the Stealers, that that some how matters ?
Isn`t that what I said about Ben to begin with ? That they win
because of their Defense and because of their running game ?
Didn`t I point out that when HE has to throw the ball 30 or more times,
that the Stealers are 3-10 ?


Here are some more facts . . .


Peyton Manning won a Super Bowl last season averaging 35
pass attempts a game.


Rex Grossman played in the Super Bowl last season averaging
30 pass attempts a game.

Tom Brady took his team to the AFC Championship game last
season averaging 32 pass attempts a game.

Drew Brees took his team to the NFC Championship game last
season and also averaged 35 attempts a game.

Ben Roethlisberger averaged 29 attempts a game last season.
He threw 5 more INTs (23) than he did TDs (18) and the Stealers
went 8-8. He threw a career high 469 passes in 2006. His previous
career high was 295 attempts and that was in 2004.


[url="http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats;jsessionid=5BAA76AFDE0867666782554E92987AD6?archive=true&seasonType=REG&statisticPositionCategory=QUARTERBACK&d-447263-o=2&conference=null&d-447263-s=PASSING_ATTEMPTS&experience=null&d-447263-n=1&season=2006&qualified=true&Submit=Find&tabSeq=1&d-447263-p=1"]http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats;jse...mp;d-447263-p=1[/url]


Tom Brady won a Super Bowl in 2004 averaging 30 pass attempts per game.
Peyton Manning averaged 31 pass attempts per game in 2003.


[url="http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats;jsessionid=51CADB4FE32E5582373C1A56F8236638?archive=true&seasonType=REG&statisticPositionCategory=QUARTERBACK&d-447263-o=2&conference=null&d-447263-s=PASSING_ATTEMPTS&experience=null&d-447263-n=1&season=2004&qualified=true&Submit=Find&tabSeq=1&d-447263-p=1"]http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats;jse...mp;d-447263-p=1[/url]

Tom Brady won a Super Bowl in 2003 averaging 33 attempts per game.
Peyton Manning averaged 35 attempts per game in 2003.


[url="http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats;jsessionid=EACD309AACC1BCEF08112EB6B3276A24?archive=true&seasonType=REG&statisticPositionCategory=QUARTERBACK&d-447263-o=2&conference=null&d-447263-s=PASSING_ATTEMPTS&experience=null&d-447263-n=1&season=2003&qualified=true&Submit=Find&tabSeq=1&d-447263-p=1"]http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats;jse...mp;d-447263-p=1[/url]

Rich Gannon took the Raiders to the Super Bowl in 2002, and he
averaged 39 pass attempts per game.

Brad Johnson won the Super Bowl in 2002, and he was averaging
a lousy 28 pass attempts per game.

[url="http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats;jsessionid=45D6DAB59B269D8B466567F0327C6F47?archive=true&seasonType=REG&statisticPositionCategory=QUARTERBACK&d-447263-o=2&conference=null&d-447263-s=PASSING_ATTEMPTS&experience=null&d-447263-n=1&season=2002&qualified=true&Submit=Find&tabSeq=1&d-447263-p=1"]http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats;jse...mp;d-447263-p=1[/url]


Tom Brady won the Super Bowl in 2001 averaging 29.5 pass attempts per game
(he only started 14 games).

In 2001, Kurt Warner took his team to the Super Bowl averaging
34 pass attempts a game.

Peyton Manning averaged 34 pass attempts per game in 2001.

[url="http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats;jsessionid=EAE45E36CCBE0BDA62F6959FBE9099DB?archive=true&seasonType=REG&statisticPositionCategory=QUARTERBACK&d-447263-o=2&conference=null&d-447263-s=PASSING_ATTEMPTS&experience=null&d-447263-n=1&season=2001&qualified=true&Submit=Find&tabSeq=1&d-447263-p=1"]http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats;jse...mp;d-447263-p=1[/url]


In 1999 Kurt Warner won the Super Bowl averaging 31 pass attempts per game.

Peyton Manning averaged 33 pass attempts per game.

[url="http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats;jsessionid=0F8B3FB349D606070409AF18F4B83213?archive=true&seasonType=REG&statisticPositionCategory=QUARTERBACK&d-447263-o=2&conference=null&d-447263-s=PASSING_ATTEMPTS&experience=null&d-447263-n=1&season=1999&qualified=true&Submit=Find&tabSeq=1&d-447263-p=1"]http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats;jse...mp;d-447263-p=1[/url]


So you see, Championships are indeed won with QBs that average
30 pass attempts or more per game. And their are consistent winners
that average 30 pass attempts or more per game.

So now go some more eat shit . . . [/quote]


[url="http://forum.go-bengals.com/index.php?showtopic=38457&hl=Ben%20Roethlisberger&st=80"]http://forum.go-bengals.com/index.php?show...erger&st=80[/url]



Fact is, Ben is not counted on to carry his team, like most Elite QBs are.
When he is counted on, he folds like a cheap lawn chair. Get it?

[oftt4]

[quote name='oldschooler' post='678243' date='Jul 11 2008, 11:40 AM']Fact is, Ben is not counted on to carry his team, like most Elite QBs are.
When he is counted on, he folds like a cheap lawn chair. Get it?[/quote]

No, the fact is that teams who rely on their QB's to "carry them" are for the most part shitty teams. The fact that Ben doesnt have to throw 40 times a game is a good thing, not a bad thing. Teams with only a good QB and no defense or supporting cast usually suck ass.

And as you consistently choose to ignore (and as mentioned in the quotes you were kind enough to supply), most of his passes come in the first 2-3 quarters....when the game is in question. When the game is still in question in the 4th QTR, Ben continues to throw...and with good results as I proved in my previous post.

Again, I am not saying anything bad about Palmer. I have gone on record many times on this board saying he is a very good QB. But to say that Ben chokes under pressure is assinine considering his accomplishments and, honestly, just reeks of jealousy.

[|SF2|]

[b]he completely mentally buttfucked in teh superbowl, and it took trick plays and WR's throwing passes to win. he bucklefucked under pressure completely. his running game and defense have been his crutch forever.. he has proven more than once when the game is in his hands to win, he fails, he threw 4-5 picks against US in 2005 i a game that all but clinched the division for us in THEIR house.[/b]

Your correct. After winning 4 straight to make it to the playoffs as a 23 year old QB Ben had the audacity to win 3 straight playoff games then completely suck in the SuperBowl. Yeah, he was lucky to win, I agree with that. But to pretend he did not play great in the previous SEVEN FUDKING WINS IN A ROW AT THE AGE OF 23 IS A JOKE. The guy was money when it counted. Was he nervous in the Superbowl? Well, considering he was playing in the MAC in Oxford Ohio two years earlier, yeah, he was probably nervous.

Of course pretty boy Carson never gets rattled. Then again he doesn't play much football in January does he? Doesn't play well enough to play in many January games does he?

Sorry, taking Ben in crunch time. He will take a hit, get back up and do ANYTHING to win. Carson won't. 3 steps, look at 1 then 2 then force to ball. This generation's Archie Manning.

Oh, those trick plays did win them a Superbowl didn't it? Funny how the coaches don't entrust Carson to run any trick plays. Can't imagine why. Oh, Miami of Ohio actually has entrance standards, USC doesn't. Go figure.

Palmer is a less volitile Jeff George. Plenty of physical talent but just can't get it done. And for those of you that think the team has his back on the Chad affair, please site some evidence.

[bammorrisgotmehigh]

[quote name='SF2' post='678385' date='Jul 12 2008, 12:01 AM'][b]he completely mentally buttfucked in teh superbowl, and it took trick plays and WR's throwing passes to win. he bucklefucked under pressure completely. his running game and defense have been his crutch forever.. he has proven more than once when the game is in his hands to win, he fails, he threw 4-5 picks against US in 2005 i a game that all but clinched the division for us in THEIR house.[/b]

Your correct. After winning 4 straight to make it to the playoffs as a 23 year old QB Ben had the audacity to win 3 straight playoff games then completely suck in the SuperBowl. Yeah, he was lucky to win, I agree with that. But to pretend he did not play great in the previous SEVEN FUDKING WINS IN A ROW AT THE AGE OF 23 IS A JOKE. The guy was money when it counted. Was he nervous in the Superbowl? Well, considering he was playing in the MAC in Oxford Ohio two years earlier, yeah, he was probably nervous.

Of course pretty boy Carson never gets rattled. Then again he doesn't play much football in January does he? Doesn't play well enough to play in many January games does he?

Sorry, taking Ben in crunch time. He will take a hit, get back up and do ANYTHING to win. Carson won't. 3 steps, look at 1 then 2 then force to ball. This generation's Archie Manning.

Oh, those trick plays did win them a Superbowl didn't it? Funny how the coaches don't entrust Carson to run any trick plays. Can't imagine why. Oh, Miami of Ohio actually has entrance standards, USC doesn't. Go figure.

Palmer is a less volitile Jeff George. Plenty of physical talent but just can't get it done. And for those of you that think the team has his back on the Chad affair, please site some evidence.[/quote]


Oh My Goodness!!!!!!!!!! :party: :applaud:

Best post I have ever seen on this site since I have been here!!!!

[Nati Ice]

[quote name='SF2' post='678385' date='Jul 12 2008, 12:01 AM']Miami of Ohio actually has entrance standards, USC doesn't. Go figure.[/quote]
LOL