|Elflocko| Posted January 15, 2009 Report Share Posted January 15, 2009 [quote name='Squirrlnutz' post='740263' date='Jan 15 2009, 01:44 PM']I do not, have not, and will not call for genocide no matter how you want to slice it. Maybe I can give an example of the "calling out of religious peoples" I'm talking about to prove that I do not advocate bigotry. Lets say you're at a town meeting and they are discussing whether or not to build a mall on a large plot of woodlands. Some people stand up and praise the tax money it will bring to the community, others stand up and point out the detriment to the community that excess noise and traffic will bring, someone boasts about being able to open up a store of their own in the mall, and another complains that competition from the mall will put his small store out of business. Then a man in the back stands up and says "you cannot put a mall on that plot of land because it is haunted by the spirits of dead! Fallen Indians massacred there 200 years ago have been damned for all eternity to haunt that land and they will bring pain, suffering, and death to those that intrude!" Right at this moment you and everyone else in the room thinks "what a fucking lunatic." But the comittee decides to engage him anyway. "How do you know this?" He responds; "its ancient lore, its been past down through generations and I have the book that says so." Sure enough he has an old dusty book that tells of this tale. You and everyone else are now holding him to the same standards (in your head) we hold everyone too. "Well how can you prove it?" One book written by one or more authors and completely un-corraborated by any other literature can't be assumed as imutably true. Further more we can hardly gauge paranormal activity and certainly have no data that this site has paranormal activity, and lastly this woodland spot has been the destination of campers and hikers and bird watchers for years without anyone ever so much as complaining about strange sounds let alone going in and never coming out. So all this happens in a matter of seconds and you've completely discredited this mans deeply held belief because it really doesn't pass the test when held to the basic critical standards you see in medicine, technology, mathmatics etc. The comittee kindly asks the man to sit down and he murmers something about being doomed as he instead walks out. Would you look upon him differently if instead of standing up he walked into the meeting with 85 other people who shared his concern? What about 10,000? Is this bigotry? By your definition of bigotry anyone who disagrees with anyone elses taste in music, even if they've listened to the other's opinion is a bigot. Not when there is evidence in a world that demands evidence. If someone claims that Gravity is incorrect and provides nothing but a hunch as to why its wrong, doubting them is not arrogant and is not bigotry, it is siding with evidence and rightly so. If we didn't accept things as truths based on evidence this world would be a horrible mess. Just imagine if nobody believed that fires, stoves, candles were hot. If nobody believed that they would fall when stepping off an elevated position. If nobody believed that you had to stop for a red light. Face it, we have aquired an infinite amount of data (most completely necessary for our day to day survival) based on observation and re-observation and controlled observation and revision. This extends un-deniably into every discipline you could imagine and has done nothing except accelerate the enlightenment of our species exponentially. The problem is now that we have taken all this and managed to use this incredible method in every aspect of our lives...AND THEN THROW IT OUT THE WINDOW WHEN SOMEONE SAYS "OH ITS GOD'S WILL." The time has come where this has to be unacceptable no matter how offended people get. Go back to my original example, and instead of town meeting we'll say its a comittee voting to allow funding for stem cell research and the guy in the back stands up and says "embryos have souls and deserve the same moral standing as you or I, you cannot just kill or keep them for scientific purposes." We need to ask how he knows this. Then he responds "[i]well god himiself said so."[/i] "How do you know?" "[i]Its written in the bible[/i]." "How can you be certain that the bible is the word of god?" "[i]Its faith[/i]." Well unfortunatley for this guy and millions of others we demand more than faith in every other discipline. What I'm asking is not for arrogance and bigotry because he's a fool, but just the same natural criticism essential for our advancement as a society. The teachings of Christ and Yahwe and any other theism you so chose can guide millions of families to a wonderful, caring, productive life while still staying out of the business of public disciplines. As for the underlined...I'm afraid the button has been pushed already...time and time again as a matter of fact, just look through the annals of history to see what atrocities "people immersed in their faith" have comitted. Its only a matter of time until its our leaders are pushing the button based on their trust in god, thats why it is of the utmost urgency that we demand religion be subjected to the same criticism as everything else when it comes to social decision making.[/quote] :applaud: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer_Rice Posted January 15, 2009 Report Share Posted January 15, 2009 Excellent post, squirrelnutz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Bengal Migration| Posted January 15, 2009 Report Share Posted January 15, 2009 [quote name='Homer_Rice' post='740287' date='Jan 16 2009, 05:26 AM']Excellent post, squirrelnutz.[/quote] +1 :applaud: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted January 15, 2009 Report Share Posted January 15, 2009 As we come closer to Obama's inaugration, here is an interview with the pastor that will swear him in Rick Warren. [url="http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionandethics/episodes/by-topic/politics/rick-warren-political-and-moral-agendas/1961/"]http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionandethics/...l-agendas/1961/[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squirrlnutz Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 [quote name='Jamie_B' post='740331' date='Jan 15 2009, 05:55 PM']As we come closer to Obama's inaugration, here is an interview with the pastor that will swear him in Rick Warren. [url="http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionandethics/episodes/by-topic/politics/rick-warren-political-and-moral-agendas/1961/"]http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionandethics/...l-agendas/1961/[/url][/quote] My headphones (yes I don't have speakers, saving up for monitors to use for recording) are crappin out so I can't get any sound. From what I've read on other forums this guy isn't a big fan of gays or womens right to choose...kind of a head-scratching choice for Obama, not to mention disappointing for me and those who think a-like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DontPushMe Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 [quote name='Scoutforlife591' post='740163' date='Jan 15 2009, 08:32 AM']I'm not totally familiar with the treaty of tripoli, is it how we ended our armed conflict with the pirates however many years ago (to the shores of Tripoli?...that one?) In which case both parties must amicably agree upon the wording of the treaty. While it's a good point, it would hold much more weight if it were an "internal" governing document. Furthermore, the way our government was set up, it has to say that. That's why Under God is always attacked.[/quote] It was unanamously ratified by congress. The judeo christian bullshit is just something right wingers throw around to keep non christians from voicing their opinions... its nothing more than a bill oreilly right wing talking point this country was founded as a secular nation... our founding fathers were radical secularists in their day Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 Some good stuff on George Mason and James Madison. [url="http://www.gunstonhall.org/georgemason/dreisbach-essay.html"]http://www.gunstonhall.org/georgemason/dreisbach-essay.html[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 [quote name='Squirrlnutz' post='740390' date='Jan 15 2009, 09:17 PM']My headphones (yes I don't have speakers, saving up for monitors to use for recording) are crappin out so I can't get any sound. From what I've read on other forums this guy isn't a big fan of gays or womens right to choose...kind of a head-scratching choice for Obama, not to mention disappointing for me and those who think a-like.[/quote] I would have prefered Jim Wallis as he and Obama have history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Elflocko| Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 [quote name='Jamie_B' post='740405' date='Jan 15 2009, 10:37 PM']Some good stuff on George Mason and James Madison. [url="http://www.gunstonhall.org/georgemason/dreisbach-essay.html"]http://www.gunstonhall.org/georgemason/dreisbach-essay.html[/url][/quote] George Mason? Pfft. Not like they named a college after the guy or anything.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Bunghole| Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 [quote name='Elflocko' post='740409' date='Jan 15 2009, 10:47 PM']George Mason? Pfft. Not like they named a college after the guy or anything.... [/quote] Well, not one that could actually usurp the Holy Throne of college basketball, anyway. Those Christians, they gave it a hell of a whirl, but lost on a late three-pointer in the end... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer_Rice Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 [quote name='DontPushMe' post='740394' date='Jan 15 2009, 10:38 PM']It was unanamously ratified by congress. The judeo christian bullshit is just something right wingers throw around to keep non christians from voicing their opinions... its nothing more than a bill oreilly right wing talking point this country was founded as a secular nation... our founding fathers were radical secularists in their day[/quote] The world didn't begin when you were born. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer_Rice Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 [quote name='Bunghole' post='740415' date='Jan 16 2009, 12:55 AM']Well, not one that could actually usurp the Holy Throne of college basketball, anyway. Those Christians, they gave it a hell of a whirl, but lost on a late three-pointer in the end...[/quote] Mothergrabbers beat my Huskies, though, dammit! That's the original sin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xombie Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 [quote name='Squirrlnutz' post='740263' date='Jan 15 2009, 01:44 PM']Is this bigotry? By your definition of bigotry anyone who disagrees with anyone elses taste in music, even if they've listened to the other's opinion is a bigot. [u] If you said something to the effect of, "(insert favorite racial slur here:) only listen to that damned hip hop." Then, yes, is an example of bigotry as the person making the claim that a derogatory inference that a lesser being than themselves could only appreciate something so 'bad' or 'undesirable' to society. That is the sentiment what DontPushMe was offering, and the sentiment that you proudly defended. [/u] Well unfortunatley for this guy and millions of others we demand more than faith in every other discipline. What I'm asking is not for arrogance and bigotry because he's a fool, but just the same natural criticism essential for our advancement as a society. The teachings of Christ and Yahwe and any other theism you so chose can guide millions of families to a wonderful, caring, productive life while still staying out of the business of public disciplines. [u] But it is members of these very same families that are a part of public business. Would you have nothing but automatons dictating the human experience to humans? [/u] As for the underlined...I'm afraid the button has been pushed already...time and time again as a matter of fact, just look through the annals of history to see what atrocities "people immersed in their faith" have comitted. Its only a matter of time until its our leaders are pushing the button based on their trust in god, thats why it is of the utmost urgency that we demand religion be subjected to the same criticism as everything else when it comes to social decision making. [u] For this argument to hold water, you also have to concede the immeasurable amount of good, as well as the evils you have mentioned, that organized religion and personal faith has brought throughout the annals of civilization. More people are killed, in this country, for their property than for their gods. Now, looking back, I did miss your post stating that you thought I was focusing my original posts at you, and not DPM... Okay, my bad then please disregard my 'your as militant as' posts...[/u][/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 [quote name='Elflocko' post='740409' date='Jan 15 2009, 10:47 PM']George Mason? Pfft. Not like they named a college after the guy or anything.... [/quote] [quote name='Bunghole' post='740415' date='Jan 15 2009, 11:55 PM']Well, not one that could actually usurp the Holy Throne of college basketball, anyway. Those Christians, they gave it a hell of a whirl, but lost on a late three-pointer in the end...[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 [quote name='Homer_Rice' post='740431' date='Jan 16 2009, 02:22 AM']The world didn't begin when you were born.[/quote] Awesome. [quote name='Homer_Rice' post='740432' date='Jan 16 2009, 02:25 AM']Mothergrabbers beat my Huskies, though, dammit! That's the original sin.[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squirrlnutz Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 [quote]But it is members of these very same families that are a part of public business. Would you have nothing but automatons dictating the human experience to humans?[/quote] Would you want nothing but faith dictating the FDA approval process? Being grandfathered into the postion is of no matter. When it comes to passing laws and dishing out tax money and mobilizing our millitary we must demand that these decisions are made on the basis of critical observational evidence and not spiritual conjecture. No one is saying you can't see a sunset and feel the warmth of the wonderful work of god. I'm just saying that you can't teach kids with tax payer money that god's hand draws the sun up every day and puts it away to draw up the moon every night unless you can prove with physical data that infact the hand of a celestial being is grabbing the back of the sun and rotating it as he pleases. [quote]For this argument to hold water, you also have to concede the immeasurable amount of good, as well as the evils you have mentioned, that organized religion and personal faith has brought throughout the annals of civilization. [b]More people are killed, in this country, for their property than for their gods.[/b][/quote] I know it has done good, and can do good (in the family and congregational setting that I keep harping on) thats not the point. The message is we have arrived (and have been here since the days of the greek philosophers) at the point where we are able to outline positive, progressive, and revolutionary [i]moral and ethical guidlines [/i]through discourse and communication and data all WITHOUT THE HELP OF 2000 YEAR OLD WRITINGS. We've been doing it in every discipline known to man but manage to turn a blind eye (with the exception of science and mathematics) when someone wants to interject on the behalf of faith. And if you want to turn to factual evidence you really have no arguement that faith has helped more people than medicine and technology. All you have to do is look at the average lifespan of humans from as little as 60 years ago to now, let alone 2000 years ago, and guess what, faith hasn't changed in that time period. And if you're talking about "hope" as helping people, that doesn't hold much water either as identifying with any ideology, deistic or not gives the followers hope. About your last line, how many murders in this country would classify themselves as Christian? Why isn't their faith in god keeping them from committing the second worst sin? I'm understanding your take on this whole thing, and its clear that your are feeling sentimental and trying to be cautious of out-right hurting peoples feelings because you don't feel its okay to be 100% sure about certain things enough that you would chastise and disregaurd an entire population's deeply held beliefs. Thats admirable because you are clearly caring of the feelings of strangers and in certain situations its beneficial to sugar coat things and ignore obvious fallacies because the ramifications of those beliefs are not potentially deadly. For instance letting a child believe in Santa Claus a little too long. But when it comes to politics and medicine the ramifications are most certainly deadly and we must hold those in charge to the highest standard no matter whose feelings are hurt in the process. And the 2000 year old words of flawed men with agendas certainly does not qualify as the highest standard no matter how (unfortunately) convinced a person is. Simply because there is no evidence to back it up and 21st century human civilization is dependant upon being able to demonstrate the truth in assertions...we would still be using rocks to hammer out mud huts during our 20 some odd years of life if this were not the case. It was not a bad thing when people stopped believing the earth was flat. It was not a bad thing when people stopped believing that sickness and disease was a consequence of demonic possession. It will not be a bad thing when people stop believing that religious faith is immune to necessary criticism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CincyInDC Posted February 3, 2009 Report Share Posted February 3, 2009 [img]http://media.richarddawkins.net/images/2009/victor-stenger-bus.jpg[/img] Looks like it's from the same ad campaign. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 [quote name='CincyInDC' post='744225' date='Feb 3 2009, 06:41 PM'][img]http://media.richarddawkins.net/images/2009/victor-stenger-bus.jpg[/img] Looks like it's from the same ad campaign.[/quote] And that argument is why these clowns are ignorant. Religion had nothing to do with it, our foreign policy did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CTBengalsFan Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 [quote name='Jamie_B' post='744251' date='Feb 3 2009, 07:24 PM']And that argument is why these clowns are ignorant. Religion had nothing to do with it, our foreign policy did.[/quote] No, religion had plenty to do with it. There isn't a singular reason 9/11 happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Elflocko| Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 [quote name='Jamie_B' post='744251' date='Feb 3 2009, 07:24 PM']And that argument is why these clowns are ignorant. Religion had nothing to do with it, our foreign policy did.[/quote] Come on now, Jamie. We've been meddling in the Middle East since 1953. We've had troops stationed in the holiest place in their [b]religion[/b] since the first Gulf War. Religion was the catalyst and motivation to get a group of otherwise intelligent, educated, well-off men to plow a bunch of planes into our buildings. They did it on the premise of being rewarded in heaven for being martyrs for their religion. Did our foreign policy cause the anger that made them want to lash out? Hell yes. Religion was the carrot... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squirrlnutz Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 [quote name='Jamie_B' post='744251' date='Feb 3 2009, 08:24 PM']And that argument is why these clowns are ignorant. Religion had nothing to do with it, our foreign policy did.[/quote] You're telling me they strategically and happily killed themselves and thousands of others without believing they would be rewarded in the afterlife? No way, no cutural convictions can convince people to do the things these "people" do on a regular basis without faith in a god and what he's telling you to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Elflocko| Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 [quote name='CincyInDC' post='744225' date='Feb 3 2009, 06:41 PM'][img]http://media.richarddawkins.net/images/2009/victor-stenger-bus.jpg[/img] Looks like it's from the same ad campaign.[/quote] And for the record, that is photo shopped, and has not been placed on any buses or other public places. Aside from the internet. [url="http://www.richarddawkins.net/article,3567,n,n"]http://www.richarddawkins.net/article,3567,n,n[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VonBlade Posted February 4, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 [quote name='Elflocko' post='744343' date='Feb 4 2009, 04:49 AM']And for the record, that is photo shopped, and has not been placed on any buses or other public places.[/quote] Wow really. It looks so convincing The text is consistenly spaced and everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Elflocko| Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 [quote name='VonBlade' post='744503' date='Feb 4 2009, 05:29 PM']Wow really. It looks so convincing The text is consistenly spaced and everything. [/quote] Wouldn't be the silliest thing some folks believe... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DontPushMe Posted February 5, 2009 Report Share Posted February 5, 2009 [quote name='Jamie_B' post='744251' date='Feb 3 2009, 07:24 PM']And that argument is why these clowns are ignorant. Religion had nothing to do with it, our foreign policy did.[/quote] Right. Al Qaeda isnt motivated by religion. Good call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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