Has Carson improved

[|SF2|]

BTW, I certainly think Carson has improved over the years. The last two years have been a struggle. No way he can get better without a good line period. Its like putting a 50 lb rucksack on world class sprinter and expecting great things from him. Passing plays take some time to develop and he doesn't have the time.

[USN Bengal]

[quote name='CJandTO' timestamp='1284749556' post='919626']
While that is true, so do a lot of great passers. Thats why Favre and those guys lead the world in INTs.


And I think THe Scales has finally fallen off the deep end.
[/quote]
Not true about Scales...

If you started out falling off the deep end, like he did, the only thing left is ludicrous land.

[JBandJoeyV]

[quote name='SF2' timestamp='1284750107' post='919628']
BTW, I certainly think Carson has improved over the years. The last two years have been a struggle. No way he can get better without a good line period. Its like putting a 50 lb rucksack on world class sprinter and expecting great things from him. Passing plays take some time to develop and he doesn't have the time.
[/quote]

I mean all you have to do is go back to the bears game last year...he was hitting every single pass even the ones that were tough to fit in there...when he has a good line and good WRs and can shred.

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='SF2' timestamp='1284747325' post='919619']
No such thing as a "stealth" leader. I actually think one of the things that has hurt Carson the most is Chad and TJ being around so long. Most QBs who are around 2 or 3 years typically assume the role based on seniority. Joe Montana, Manning, Brady, Favre and Brees have never had this situation. They got to their young teams and just assumed the leadership role quickly as they were the best players on the team. Favre did it by simple heroics (over us) and never looked back. I think that is why TO was let go in Dallas. You need ONE leader and Romo was already it.

In today's media age if Carson WERE the leader you think he is then I am guessing we would already know that. Insiders love getting this information out nowadays. I really have never heard it said that Carson was THE LEADER in the lockerroom. I hear more Dhani Jones and Chad than Carson. Willie was THE leader before I believe.

Its simple to see the Leadership qualities in Drew Brees because he wears them on his sleave as does Brett Favre. Manning and Brady are well known to be tireless workers on and off season. You just don't see it or hear about it much with Carson. Not saying he isn't the leader just think that if he is, we should know it. You would think the organization would do a better job portraying Carson as the face of the franchise.
[/quote]



as usualy, you dodge the question.


Neither you or I see easily 95% (probably an understatement) of Carson's interaction with his teammates in a given season. It's absolutely foolish to think you know anything about what kind of leader he is. I'll trust the guys in the locker room who say Carson IS the leader, even Chad says Carson is the man in the locker room.

There's plenty of stories out there talking about Carson and his leadership if you care to read them. Just because he's not out there leading pre-game chants like Brees or cussing out teammates on camera like Brady and Manning doesn't mean he's not a good leader. That's not his style, and there's plenty of ways to be a good leader.


You don't think Carson works tiressly in the off-season too? Why, just because it isn't reported?



[quote]Not saying he isn't the leader just think that if he is, we should know it.[/quote]


lol I always laugh at fans who think they are expected anything from an organization, especially fluff pieces to make them feel better about the players they root for.

[|SF2|]

[quote name='CJandTO' timestamp='1284750286' post='919631']
I mean all you have to do is go back to the bears game last year...he was hitting every single pass even the ones that were tough to fit in there...when he has a good line and good WRs and can shred.
[/quote]

If Carson is comfortable in the pocket, its going to be a long day for the other team's secondary. He hasn't been comfortable for 3 years. Last year he and Brat did what they had to do to make it to the playoffs but there was no way that team was going far without a Carson having time. Its one thing for a well designed blitz to pressure the QB but Carson was getting substantial pressure from 3 and 4 man fronts all last season. Thats tough to overcome.

[happyrid]

For me, the frustrating thing about Carson is that he's not bad. He might be like 10th best QB in the NFL or so. And he shows you glimpses that make you think he could make that leap to top 3. Plus, he's a likeable guy who is easy to root for. With all that being said, many of the criticisms in the scouting report ring true.

He is so streaky, even within a game. New England, he was great in the 2nd half, but terrible in the 1st. Go back even to some of the wins in the 1st half of last year that all of Carson's defenders point to. He led what should have been a game winning drive against Denver. But those were our first points of the game. Arguably his best game was against Green Bay, but he also threw a pick 6 and another INT that was returned inside the 10 yard line. Against Pitt, he lead game winning drives, but we hardly scored in those 2 games if you take away the Bernard Scott kick return TD and the Jon Joe Pick 6.

Except for the couple of games where he's been awful (both Jets games), Carson is usually a mixed bag. Some great throws and reads but also some throws and decisions that really make you scratch your head that are almost like rookie mistakes.

I hope for the best, but Carson's is now over 30 and is unlikely to improve significantly in his 7th season. We can't use lack of weapons or crap defense as an excuse anymore. It's put up or shutup time for Carson. I believe in him. I like his chances for a big year (drafted him as my fantasy QB even though guys like Jay Cutler, McNabb, etc. were available), but I'm not going to act like he's a sure thing to play well this season.

[|Lucid|]

Why do people think that skill positions define an offense?

[|SF2|]

[quote name='Bengals1181' timestamp='1284750690' post='919632']
as usualy, you dodge the question.


Neither you or I see easily 95% (probably an understatement) of Carson's interaction with his teammates in a given season. It's absolutely foolish to think you know anything about what kind of leader he is. I'll trust the guys in the locker room who say Carson IS the leader, even Chad says Carson is the man in the locker room.

There's plenty of stories out there talking about Carson and his leadership if you care to read them. Just because he's not out there leading pre-game chants like Brees or cussing out teammates on camera like Brady and Manning doesn't mean he's not a good leader. That's not his style, and there's plenty of ways to be a good leader.


You don't think Carson works tiressly in the off-season too? Why, just because it isn't reported?

lol I always laugh at fans who think they are expected anything from an organization, especially fluff pieces to make them feel better about the players they root for.
[/quote]

I spent 9 years in the Army, 6 months in combat as a Captain in an M1 tank battalion and I am here to say there is no such thing as a "stealth" leader. Its made up nonsense politically correct corporations and liberal arts types put out in order to justify promoting non leadership types into leadership roles. I have seen it time and time again in the Army and USN Bengal will hopefully back me up on the Navy side.

I graduated from West Point in 1986 and KNOW what a leader is. I have seen classmates of mine who couldn't lead a pack of teenage girls into a new Twilight movie be promoted only because they were West Point educated. I can walk into a room, interact with the people and pick out the leaders in about 20 minutes. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS THE QUIET STEALTHY LEADER. Does not exist. Does not mean a leader has to be loud, yell or anything of that nature. It means when they walk into a room, everyone knows who the fuck is in charge.

I had a First Sergeant who could walk into a room and make Lieutenants and some Captains piss themselves. His men would eat glass for him. I have seen Majors who were mocked by non commissioned officers because they were such pussies. And I am here to tell you I can watch the sideline during a football game and tell you who is in charge. Its really easy.

When it comes to the Patriots, Bill Belichek is in charge, not Tom Brady. Thats just the simple fact. His players respect and fear the shit out of him. Not a bad trait in the NFL. Manning is basically the ruler for the Colts. He has that kind of power but he is also on what his third coach? On the Ravens its Ray Lewis. He is the guy people look to.

You watch the game this weekend and tell me who is in charge on that sideline.

[claptonrocks]

[quote name='Lucid' timestamp='1284752290' post='919641']
Why do people think that skill positions define an offense?
[/quote]

I ponder your posts sometimes....they are interesting...dont allways agree with you but interesting
just the same....

[oldschooler]

[size="5"][b]USC keeps churning out bad QBs [/b][/size]

[i]Kevin Hench is a frequent contributor to FOXSports.com. An accomplished film and television writer, Hench's latest screenwriting credit is for The Hammer, which stars Adam Carolla and is now available on DVD. His podcast, Spider and the Henchman, is available every Friday on iTunes.[/i]
Updated Sep 16, 2010 12:49 PM ET


Maybe Ken Whisenhunt just beat the rush.

It made for splashy headlines when the Cardinals released former USC star and Heisman Trophy winner Matt Leinart, but in light of the Week 1 performances of the other former Trojans QBs, perhaps Whisenhunt’s move should start a trend.

[b]Carson Palmer put the Bengals in a 24-0 hole by failing to convert his first three third downs and then throwing a pick-six before spackling his numbers in garbage time.[/b]

The Chiefs managed to win Monday night despite Matt Cassel’s 10-for-22, 68-yard stat line. That’s 3.1 yards per wobbly attempt (as depressed Dwayne Bowe owners can tell you).

Mark Sanchez? Zero touchdowns, six first downs, countless checkdowns in an embarrassing, hyper-conservative, 10-9 home loss to the Ravens.

USC now stands for Underperforming Signal Callers. Having a Trojan in your pocket might make you feel safe and secure, but it won’t help you score.

Despite some incredible field position thanks to three Ravens turnovers, including Joe Flacco’s lost fumble at his own 11, Sanchez could not put the ball in the end zone all night. In fact, the Jets’ hard-hitting defense consistently looked like the bigger threat to score.

Which isn’t to say New York’s quarterback play was entirely wretched. Brad Smith ran for 27 yards on two carries as the change-of-pace QB. But otherwise, the Jets offense just ran in place with Sanchez at the controls.

It’s not really accurate to call what Sanchez did in the opener “checking down.” Checking down would imply he was actually looking up the field before checking down to his release valves. But Sanchez was bailing on the play before wide-outs Braylon Edwards and Jerricho Cotchery even reached the second level.

Astonishingly, despite constantly dumping the ball off for a paltry 7.4 yards per completion average, Sanchez managed to complete fewer than half his passes (10-for-21). The Jets finished with 60 total passing yards. (Tom Brady had 59 and a touchdown on the Patriots’ first drive of the season.)

At lunch on Monday, several hours before Jets-Ravens kicked off, a buddy asked me: “What’s the difference between Mark Sanchez and Matt Leinart?”


Mark “Checkdown” Sanchez is right-handed. Matt “Checkdown” Leinart is a lefty.

On 385 career passes in the NFL, Sanchez has a putrid 62.7 passer rating. On 595 career passes, Leinart has a merely pathetic 70.8 rating.

Oh, and Leinart, safely sequestered behind a clipboard on Sunday, didn’t cost his team a victory in Week 1. (Coincidentally, Leinart’s signing by the Texans cost another USC QB, John David Booty, the No. 3 job in Houston.)

In order to be truly committed to the vertical passing game, a quarterback has to be willing to get hit. Post patterns and double moves take time. Sometimes giving receivers time to get free means getting blasted.

One has to wonder if pretty boys Sanchez and Leinart have the guts to step into a throw if it also means stepping into the path of a blitzing missile.

On Monday, Sanchez looked positively Leinart-esque in his hasty, hot-potato abandonment of his downfield options.

The Jets are hoping Sanchez’s apparent regression was just a momentary setback. As for the Chiefs, they’re hoping Cassel’s entire 2009 season was a glitch and he’ll return to his ’08 form this season.

No such luck in the opener. Cassel averaged a sub-Sanchez 6.8 yards per completion against the Chargers, and when you throw in a 6-yard loss on San Diego’s only sack, the Chiefs mustered 2.8 yards per pass attempt. Oh boy.

Unlike Palmer and Leinart -- both of whom he sat behind at USC -- and Sanchez, Cassel was not a top 10 pick. The Patriots took him in the seventh round with the 230th pick.

But with his remarkable 2008 season in New England -- 3,693 yards, 21 touchdowns subbing for Brady -- he looked like the real deal. (As it stands, Cassel is the answer to this trivia question: Who was the last Patriots QB to throw for 400 yards in game?)

As Scott Pioli tries to replicate the recipe for success he enjoyed as GM in New England, he’s mixing in familiar ingredients: Cassel, linebacker Mike Vrabel, right tacke Ryan O’Callaghan and coordinators Charlie Weis and Romeo Crennel.

After Pioli traded for Cassel, he signed him to a six-year, $63 million extension with $28 million guaranteed. (That’s $27,999,998 more than fantasy owners valued him at auction.)

But since coming to Kansas City, Cassel has been a shadow of the one-year wonder he was in Foxboro. Monday night marked the eighth time in 16 starts for the Chiefs that he had thrown for fewer than 6 yards per attempt. It was the first time in those eight games the Chiefs won the game.

So far, the Chiefs have five wins and a 69.8 passer rating to show for their huge investment in Cassel. The Jets are 8-8 in the 16 regular-season games started by their $50 million ($28 million guaranteed) “Sanchize.” And the Cardinals may have gotten out from under a big 2011 balloon payment for Leinart by releasing him, but not before seeing tens of millions swirl down the drain of the hot tub.

[b]Which leaves Palmer, the most accomplished and therefore most vexing case of the bunch.

In 2005, Palmer’s second year in the league, he shot into the elite handful of NFL quarterbacks with a 32-TD, 12-pick, 101.1 rating season.

After winning the AFC North with an 11-5 record, he connected for a 66-yard TD with Chris Henry on his first playoff pass against the Steelers. Looking back, that may have been the peak of Palmer’s career.

It was also the low point. After that throw, Steelers d-lineman Kimo von Oelhoffen crumpled Palmer’s knee.

Palmer made it back for opening day in 2006 and had another excellent season, throwing 28 TDs to 13 picks, but the Bengals went 8-8 and missed the playoffs.

In 2007, the TDs fell off another notch to 26, while the interceptions rose to 20 and the rating fell for the second straight year to a pedestrian 86.7 as the Bengals went 7-9.

In 2008, the Bengals were the Bungles again, standing at 0-5 when Palmer suffered a season-ending ligament injury in his throwing elbow. In four seasons, his rating had gone from 101.1 to 93.9 to 86.7 to 69.0.

Last year was a new chapter for Palmer, as he “managed” Cincy’s now-conservative, run-dominated attack. He threw 21 touchdowns and was picked off 13 times, posting an 83.6 rating that ranked 16th in the NFL.

But the Bengals won their division and hosted a playoff game, which is where the whispers about Palmer’s limitations grew louder. The meaningless blowout loss to the Jets in Week 17 could be ignored, but when the Jets repeated the beatdown the following week in the playoffs, holding Palmer to 146 yards on 36 attempts (4.06 yards per attempt), the former No. 1 overall draft pick looked every bit like an aging dink-and-dunker who had suffered two major injuries.

Week 1 won’t make the whispers go away. Yes, Palmer finished with 345 yards and threw some perfect strikes, but he did so against a team protecting a huge lead with virtually no pass rush (one sack in 55 dropbacks).

In Week 2, Palmer gets the Ravens D that so exposed Sanchez.

It might be time for the Bengals, Chiefs and Jets to follow Whisenhunt’s lead and start ruminating on their next QBs of the future.[/b]

Hey, Matt Barkley is just a couple years away.




http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/usc-trojans-keep-churning-out-bad-NFL-qbs-091510

[oldschooler]

[quote name='cp2024' timestamp='1284736266' post='919540']
Mel on Carson....back then
From Mel Kiper's 2003 Draft Report
Negatives: Lacks a quick arm like Elway or Mike Vick and has some windup and three-quarters arm delivery. Forces ball, making dumb mistakes at times. Doesn't have much personality or fire and is a marginal leader, who seems to lack the persona to attract teammates as followers. Average scrambler. Has short accuracy and is inconsistent on short-to-medium and long passes. Erratic, hot-and-cold player who lacks velocity on deep out. Does not have great instincts and intelligence or IQ. Streaky and loses poise and confidence. Can improve technique and accuracy. Slow reactor. Lacks field vision. Better in rhythm system. Ran a limited offense and loses accuracy when pressured, but he will throw away and take a sack. Good but not great arm. Has questionable mental toughness and is questionable at handling pressure. Tends to bird-dog his primary receiver.
[/quote]



For one thing, Lance is a dumbass. That wasn't written by Mel Kiper.
It was written by The Sporting News. And they said that Carson was
selected by the Chargers (still says it, 7 years later)


Carson Palmer
SELECTED BY SAN DIEGO , ROUND 1, PICK 1, OVERALL PICK 1
QB | (6-5, 232, 4.8) | USC
By Pro Football Weekly

Notes: High school All-American who was hyped nearly as much as John Elway was coming out of high school. Started USC's last four regular-season games and its bowl game in 1998, completing 130-of-235 passes for 1,755 yards, seven touchdowns and six interceptions. Completed 39-53-490-3-0 in '99 but broke his right collarbone in Game Three and redshirted. Came back to start every game in 2000 and '01. Completed 228-415-2,914-16-18 in 2000 and 206-351-2,567-13-12 in '01. Completed 288-458-3,639-32-10 in '02 and won the Heisman Trophy. Completed 21-of-31-303-1-0 in USC's Orange Bowl victory over Iowa.

Positives: Great mechanics, good feet, size, arm and accuracy. Plays hurt. Has big, 10-inch hands. Started 32 games in four years, has lots of stats at a major school and played in some big games. Good athletic ability and touch. Made rare improvement and was highly productive. Played within offense. Has timing, touch and accuracy. Can sidestep the first move and drop the deep ball. Accurate on deep and seam routes. Is good on swing routes and plays within himself. Is better on the move and made large strides when he had the same coordinator two years in a row (Norm Chow). Has stretches when he seems to have pinpoint accuracy and the ability to pick up his secondary receiver.

Negatives: Lacks a quick arm like Elway or Mike Vick and has some windup and three-quarters arm delivery. Forces ball, making dumb mistakes at times. Doesn't have much personality or fire and is a marginal leader, who seems to lack the persona to attract teammates as followers. Average scrambler. Has short accuracy and is inconsistent on short-to-medium and long passes. Erratic, hot-and-cold player who lacks velocity on deep out. Does not have great instincts and intelligence or IQ. Streaky and loses poise and confidence. Can improve technique and accuracy. Slow reactor. Lacks field vision. Better in rhythm system. Ran a limited offense and loses accuracy when pressured, but he will throw away and take a sack. Good but not great arm. Has questionable mental toughness and is questionable at handling pressure. Tends to bird-dog his primary receiver.

Summary: Palmer finally put everything together as a senior and should be the first quarterback, if not the top player, selected in the draft.

* Player biographies are provided by Pro Football Weekly.




http://sports.espn.go.com/nfldraft/tracker/player?id=7035

[oldschooler]

This is what Kiper said about Carson right after he was drafted.


1. Cincinnati Bengals -- Carson Palmer, QB, USC
I said all along that the Bengals should take Palmer if they felt he was was the next Troy Aikman or Drew Bledsoe, and they obviously think he is. Palmer had a tremendous senior season, throwing for 3,639 yards and 33 touchdowns under offensive coordinator Norm Chow. He has it all physically (6-5¼, 235), is mobile for a man his size and has a great arm. There has been some question about the lack of fire and emotion he displays, but people said the same things about Aikman coming out of UCLA. There is no doubt Palmer is a QB in the mold of Aikman and Bledsoe.


(From ESPN Insider)


http://insider.espn.go.com/insider/story?id=1545052

[|Lucid|]

[quote name='claptonrocks' timestamp='1284758976' post='919659']
I ponder your posts sometimes....they are interesting...dont allways agree with you but interesting
just the same....
[/quote]


Thank you... That's all I can ask for.

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='SF2' timestamp='1284757875' post='919657']
I spent 9 years in the Army, 6 months in combat as a Captain in an M1 tank battalion and I am here to say there is no such thing as a "stealth" leader. Its made up nonsense politically correct corporations and liberal arts types put out in order to justify promoting non leadership types into leadership roles. I have seen it time and time again in the Army and USN Bengal will hopefully back me up on the Navy side.

I graduated from West Point in 1986 and KNOW what a leader is. I have seen classmates of mine who couldn't lead a pack of teenage girls into a new Twilight movie be promoted only because they were West Point educated. I can walk into a room, interact with the people and pick out the leaders in about 20 minutes. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS THE QUIET STEALTHY LEADER. Does not exist. Does not mean a leader has to be loud, yell or anything of that nature. [b]It means when they walk into a room, everyone knows who the fuck is in charge.[/b]

I had a First Sergeant who could walk into a room and make Lieutenants and some Captains piss themselves. His men would eat glass for him. I have seen Majors who were mocked by non commissioned officers because they were such pussies. And I am here to tell you I can watch the sideline during a football game and tell you who is in charge. Its really easy.

When it comes to the Patriots, Bill Belichek is in charge, not Tom Brady. Thats just the simple fact. His players respect and fear the shit out of him. Not a bad trait in the NFL. Manning is basically the ruler for the Colts. He has that kind of power but he is also on what his third coach? On the Ravens its Ray Lewis. He is the guy people look to.

You watch the game this weekend and tell me who is in charge on that sideline.
[/quote]



And again, what room have you been in that Carson has walked into? In a given season you're lucky if you've seen 1% of Carson's interaction with his teammates.


It's competely preposterous for either of us to think we know a thing about what kind of leader Carson is.

[oldschooler]

TEAM CAPTAINS: [b]The Bengals voted on team captains earlier today with Carson Palmer[/b] and Bobbie Williams being elected on offense, Domata Peko and Dhani Jones on defense and Brandon Johnson on special teams.


[url="http://cincinnati.com/blogs/bengals/2010/09/06/9610-coats-coffman-and-team-captains/"]http://cincinnati.co...-team-captains/[/url]

I would say that means the team looks at Carson as a leader.

[|Lucid|]

[quote name='SF2' timestamp='1284757875' post='919657']
I spent 9 years in the Army, 6 months in combat as a Captain in an M1 tank battalion and I am here to say there is no such thing as a "stealth" leader. Its made up nonsense politically correct corporations and liberal arts types put out in order to justify promoting non leadership types into leadership roles. I have seen it time and time again in the Army and USN Bengal will hopefully back me up on the Navy side.

I graduated from West Point in 1986 and KNOW what a leader is. I have seen classmates of mine who couldn't lead a pack of teenage girls into a new Twilight movie be promoted only because they were West Point educated. I can walk into a room, interact with the people and pick out the leaders in about 20 minutes. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS THE QUIET STEALTHY LEADER. Does not exist. Does not mean a leader has to be loud, yell or anything of that nature. It means when they walk into a room, everyone knows who the fuck is in charge.

I had a First Sergeant who could walk into a room and make Lieutenants and some Captains piss themselves. His men would eat glass for him. I have seen Majors who were mocked by non commissioned officers because they were such pussies. And I am here to tell you I can watch the sideline during a football game and tell you who is in charge. Its really easy.

When it comes to the Patriots, Bill Belichek is in charge, not Tom Brady. Thats just the simple fact. His players respect and fear the shit out of him. Not a bad trait in the NFL. Manning is basically the ruler for the Colts. He has that kind of power but he is also on what his third coach? On the Ravens its Ray Lewis. He is the guy people look to.

You watch the game this weekend and tell me who is in charge on that sideline.
[/quote]


It's funny you claim excellent leadership recognition skills, but earlier in the thread listed Chad as a leader.. It's funny because I have heard/read from multiple sources in the locker room that Chad is definitely not a leader.

That doesn;t mean people don;t look up to him, or respect his game... But there is a huge difference between being respected/admired, and being "a leader".

And as far as your military experience... I was also in the military (Army).. And while I never climbed to the rank you did (I made it as far as Cpl), I was a squad leader, and above and beyond that, I had many fine examples of outstanding leadership during my career.

While I have no idea what a "stealth" leader is, I do know that being a "rah rah" type has nothing to do with it.. Neither does public displays of anger/dressing down... Nor does it involve yelling at people to get them fired up... Not that these aren't qualities exhibited by some leaders..

In my experience what makes a "leader" is not something that would necessarily be evident to those watching from a distance or from "the outside".

[oldschooler]

[quote name='Lucid' timestamp='1284762825' post='919678']
It's funny you claim excellent leadership recognition skills, but earlier in the thread listed Chad as a leader.. It's funny because I have heard/read from multiple sources in the locker room that Chad is definitely not a leader.

That doesn;t mean people don;t look up to him, or respect his game... But there is a huge difference between being respected/admired, and being "a leader".

And as far as your military experience... I was also in the military (Army).. And while I never climbed to the rank you did (I made it as far as Cpl), I was a squad leader, and above and beyond that, I had many fine examples of outstanding leadership during my career.

While I have no idea what a "stealth" leader is, I do know that being a "rah rah" type has nothing to do with it.. Neither does public displays of anger/dressing down... Nor does it involve yelling at people to get them fired up... Not that these aren't qualities exhibited by some leaders..

In my experience what makes a "leader" is not something that would necessarily be evident to those watching from a distance or from "the outside".
[/quote]



I think (hope) you quoted the wrong person.

[|Lucid|]

[quote name='oldschooler' timestamp='1284762913' post='919679']
I think (hope) you quoted the wrong person.
[/quote]


Oh Shit!

I sure did.. Sorry, at work, and in a rush..

Fixt

[spidey]

It's simple. Fix the line and you will see the 2005 Palmer.

[|Bunghole|]

[quote name='oldschooler' timestamp='1284762913' post='919679']
I think (hope) you quoted the wrong person.
[/quote]

He did. It was obviously directed towards [b]SF2[/b].

I was also in the Army. I "broke the mold" so to speak in my family (all career officers) and enlisted. My Dad and both his brothers went to West Point, and graduated in 1963, 1965 and 1975 respectively. My Dad did 36 years and retired as a major general in the Corps of Engineers. Did two tours in 'Nam as a company commander of combat heavy engineers. My Uncle Tom was a Cobra pilot in Vietnam and also did two tours. He retired after 30 years as a bird colonel and a respected CAB commander. My other uncle Mike was also a helicopter pilot and retired after 20 something years as a LTC. He now works in the defense industry helping design helicopter simulators and makes a mint.

Both my grandfathers were retired Army and Air Force colonels that fought in both WWII and Korea. They have both been dead for awhile now.

All of them were great leaders at almost every level of command in a real situation where errant decisions result in life or death rather than an interception. None of them was known as a bullish, yeller type of leader. I agree with [b]SF2[/b] that there isn't any such thing as a "stealth leader" (which is a contradiction in terms to me) but a good leader doesn't have to be vocal or outspoken, but very keyed into whatever faces him and has a certain presence that commands respect.

I think Carson Palmer has that presence. He's also not perfect and has been the victim of some shitty luck, both injury-wise and playing for the Bengals. We haven't continually provided him with the best protection along our offensive line. A good leader needs to not only have the support of his troops but in order to be effective, needs to be surrounded by the best, most well-trained people for the job. The Bengals have failed Carson, not the other way around. And it isn't as bad as I make it sound...maybe failed is a strong word as injuries and some draft picks that didn't pan out are things that just happen...but I'm firmly convinced that if we had in the past and continued to have a very good offensive line (like the Pats and Colts enjoy) that this discussion wouldn't even be taking place.

Some of the criticism of Carson in that assessment is accurate (like pocket awareness, although in that area I think he actually HAS improved), most of it is just fluff bullshit.

[scharm]

[quote name='Lucid' timestamp='1284752290' post='919641']
Why do people think that skill positions define an offense?
[/quote]

They kinda do. Most don't recognize line except in a negative situation. Tackles are taken atop the draft often. The remaining 3 spots it is very hard from them to land 1st round spots when compared to the offensive skill spots.

[T-Dub]

[quote name='spidey' timestamp='1284764825' post='919687']
It's simple. Fix the line and you will see the 2005 Palmer.
[/quote]

This. Even with the line as shaky as it is, when he does have any kind of a pocket it's almost a guaranteed completion.

Kinda goes back to the "fewest sacks allowed" thing - it's observer bias, you're seeing what you want to see. If you think Carson is the problem you need to pay more attention to the line.

[happyrid]

How was Aaron Rodgers O line last year when he had an amazing season? I seem to remember the Bengals sacking him 8 times and him never having any time to throw....I think he was sacked like 55 times last year and still had over 30 TDs and only 7 INTs.

I'm not saying that pass protection isn't a problem, but to say it is the only problem is a huge, huge over simplification.

I just have this feeling that even if Carson retires at age 36 without having ever won a playoff game, there will still be some who say, "if his O line was better, he'd have won a ton of Super Bowls, he was the best QB ever."

[BengalsRZ]

I don't know, I just really think Carson is special. Will my opinion start to change a little bit if we don't win a playoff game this year? Maybe. But maybe not, I just find him so hard to blame, I feel like he does everything right. Last time all the pieces were in place 05-06, he was an elite QB. Cincinnati just hasn't given him a real chance since then. This year, the o-line is looking weak, but I still think he puts up top 8 numbers. We'll see, i really hope I'm right.

[Elijah15]

[quote name='oldschooler' timestamp='1284760326' post='919667']
This is what Kiper said about Carson right after he was drafted.


1. Cincinnati Bengals -- Carson Palmer, QB, USC
I said all along that the Bengals should take Palmer if they felt he was was the next Troy Aikman or Drew Bledsoe, and they obviously think he is. Palmer had a tremendous senior season, throwing for 3,639 yards and 33 touchdowns under offensive coordinator Norm Chow. He has it all physically (6-5¼, 235), is mobile for a man his size and has a great arm. There has been some question about the lack of fire and emotion he displays, but people said the same things about Aikman coming out of UCLA. There is no doubt Palmer is a QB in the mold of Aikman and Bledsoe.


(From ESPN Insider)


http://insider.espn.go.com/insider/story?id=1545052
[/quote]
Good job,you pwn lol.Thanks for giving us some facts