Biggest reason the bengals arent solid year in and out?

[JBandJoeyV]

Now im not saying that its necessarily always the front offices fault, or we are always
just unlucky due to injuries, or coaches just dont coach them up, but there is definitely
a combination of all 3, in part to other things probably that lead to draft picks that just
dont perform.

Not every draft pick you have to have has to be a pro bowler or anything, but weve had far
too many come in and not do enough to make a difference compared to where they were picked
for a variety of reasons.

We have had some late picks come in and do pretty well. For example TJ and Chinny etc were
7th round picks that way overperformed where they were drafted. But lets take a look at
the top 3 picks of our drafts since 2004.


2004
1. Chris Perry-debatable on whether it was a bad pick or not, but the dude never stayed healthy
and didnt do much for us.
2. Keiwan Ratliff-definitely didnt play up to a 2nd round pick
3. Madieu Williams-he started a lot of games for us so id say he performed decent for a
second rounder. Wouldnt say its a great pick, but definitely not a bust.

2005
1. Pollack
2. Thurman
3. Henry
Common theme in this draft, injuries and suspensions. All helped a lot in winning hte 2005
title, but werent able to carry that into the following years as none of these guys saw
the field that much. Tragic ending for all 3 really (most tragic obviously Henry).
I have no doubt in my mind had all 3 stayed out of trouble and healthy we would have been
in the playoffs at least 1 or 2 more times in the last 5 years.

2006
1. Joseph-solid
2. Whit-Solid
3. Rucker-ok just hasnt stayed healthy too much

2007
1. hall-solid
2. Irons-career ending injury
3. Marvin white-4th rounder that got some PT, but never anything great. Dont know if id
consider him a bust considering he was a 4th rounder

2008
1. Rivers-ok, dont know if hes played like a top 10 draft pick though
2. Jerome-3 years of nothing so far
3. Pat Sims-ok role player

Ill stop there as its too soon to judge the 2009 and 2010 draft classes.

But thats 5 draft classes with the top 3 picks in each one. So 15 guys.

Of those 15 guys Id say 7 of the 15 were either busts or just never stayed healthy enough
to produce consistently.
Of the other 8 id say 4 were just role players, nothing special.
Of the final 4, 3 have been probowl quality, Hall Joseph and Whit. The final guy being
rivers who has been solid, but jury is still out if he is going to live up to a top 10 pick.



So there you go. 15 guys drafted in the first 3 picks, 11 of which were busts or just ok.

There is a reason we arent consistently good and its cause we havent had enough consitency
with our draft picks. And not a lot of big name free agents come to Cincinnati, so we need
to build through the draft to be good consistently.

Not putting all the blame on one person. Not saying its just Marvins fault, or just Mike Browns,
or just the players, or just the rest of the coaches. Its some sort of combination.



Going forward we NEED more production from draft picks. Hopefully, going forward in the future
some of our draft picks from the last two years Andre, Rey, MJ, Gresh, Ship, Dunlap either
get better and perform better or for those that have been good keep improving. If we are
in 2014 and looking back and most those guys were busts or just ok role players chances
are that we wont have made the playoffs very often in those 4 years.

[|Tigers Johnson|]

I don't think it is just the players they draft...

You look at teams like the Steelers, Patriots, Colts or other teams that have been good over an extended period of time. If they have injuries other guys step in and fill a role or two or three and they keep on trucking(I am not talking about a rash of injuries to a team because no team in the NFL can overcome that).

I really think it comes down to a lack of scouting. The teams mentioned above scout and draft players that fit their system and team chemistry. The Bengals do not have enough manpower to look for those things. The Bengals identify talent and that is it. That is why this team is so up and down....and I also believe that is why this teams takes so many chances on players with character issues later in the draft.

[Bengals1181]

I don't know that its mainly drafting. They are drafting talent, they aren't developing it. That falls on coaching.

[JBandJoeyV]

[quote name='Bengals1181' timestamp='1288796571' post='936989']
I don't know that its mainly drafting. They are drafting talent, they aren't developing it. That falls on coaching.
[/quote]

I guess my whole point is that we arent getting enough out of our draft picks.

Whether that be due to:
1. Bad picks
2. Injuries
3. Character issues
4. Just not developing the players


Either way we arent getting enough out of our draft picks, and if we want to be successful
in the future we absolutely must find a way to get more out of our draft picks, especially the
high ones.

Theres just no excuse for having so little production out of top draft picks as we have
had the last however many years.

[Spinylumpsucker]

It is coaching. There hasn't really been an identity on either side of the ball (the D kind of has one with Zimmer). We haven't developed a young WR since Chad and TJ. Why is that? The OL has been in flux since Braham went down in 2006. On D, we haven't developed a passrusher. Our best passrusher, Odom, was a FA.

[MichaelWeston]

I made an entire post about this somewhere else where i compared the ravens drafting over the past five years to ours. They are pretty similar.

[-GoBengals-]

[quote name='Tigers Johnson' timestamp='1288796451' post='936988']
I don't think it is just the players they draft...

You look at teams like the Steelers, Patriots, Colts or other teams that have been good over an extended period of time. If they have injuries other guys step in and fill a role or two or three and they keep on trucking(I am not talking about a rash of injuries to a team because no team in the NFL can overcome that).

I really think it comes down to a lack of scouting. The teams mentioned above scout and draft players that fit their system and team chemistry. The Bengals do not have enough manpower to look for those things. The Bengals identify talent and that is it. That is why this team is so up and down....and I also believe that is why this teams takes so many chances on players with character issues later in the draft.
[/quote]

like when the steeelrs lost troy last year and finished 3rd in the division?

[|Tigers Johnson|]

[quote name='GoBengals' timestamp='1288802034' post='937027']
like when the steeelrs lost troy last year and finished 3rd in the division?
[/quote]

Yeah... that was all cuz of Troy... keep trying...


I would much rather have the Steelers 20 year record than ours...

You just keep feeling good about losing and mediocrity....

[|Harley|]

Talent Evaluation
Coaching

and the big intangible - the losing persona that starts at the tippy top and permeates its way to the bottom. The tone and image of any organization - business, sports, nonprofit, etc. - is set at the top. A positive image and winning attitude has not flowed consistently from the top of the Bengals.

[bengaled]

[quote name='Tigers Johnson' timestamp='1288802162' post='937028']
Yeah... that was all cuz of Troy... keep trying...


I would much rather have the Steelers 20 year record than ours...

You just keep feeling good about losing and mediocrity....
[/quote]

you're right. a bad offensive line, poor running game, and uncharacteristically poor special teams play each played a big factor in their fall.

[|SF2|]

[quote name='bengaled' timestamp='1288803049' post='937035']
you're right. a bad offensive line, poor running game, and uncharacteristically poor special teams play each played a big factor in their fall.
[/quote]
Don't forget they rattled off 3 wins at the end of the season to almost get in with a decimated team. 9-7 is a BAD year for the Stealers.

[Bengals1181]

Thornton:


[quote]JT
November 4th, 2010 at 1:45 pm

I like the Bengals front office because they are loyal, which is hard to find in sports. But they do need to beef up the Pro Personnel dept. People always focus on the college scouting, but pro personnel watches every player around the league, and compares them to their own team. That way you get a better gauge of who to keep, who to extend early, who to target in free agency. They could use younger scouts as well. A guy like Brian Simmons, whose scouting in Jacksonville or Charles Fisher who scouted for Seahawks for 8yrs after playing here. Those are just examples. Guys who played, have passion for football.[/quote]


[quote]JT
November 4th, 2010 at 2:26 pm

The Eagles and Colts are loyal. They were loyal to McNabb for a long time. Loyal to Andy Reid when the city thinks he should be gone. They sign young players to big deals all the time. Yes they let go of vets but so do Mike Brown. He doesn’t keep older guys around unless they are working for minimum. I just like their everyday loyalty, but I pointed out their flaws.[b] I’ve been with Titans and Bengals. Saw both organizations. Not much difference. Little things yes, but structurally not much. [/b]Titans do win more [/quote]

[JC]

I'd love to see Brian Simmons back here doing some scouting.

[|OneHeartBeat|]

One of the things the Patriots do is that there not afraid to trade away players to stockpile future draft picks. They have 2 picks in each of the first 3 rounds this year. That's how they stay good year after year. The Colts are excellent at finding recievers. They cut harrison and dont miss a beat. They lose Dallas Clark and his backup comes in and dosen't miss a beat. It's sickening to watch these other teams do it and wonder why cant we do that?

Trade Chad for a draft pick. If we end up drafting high in the 1st round, trade down and stockpile some picks. We should have tried to trade TJ for a draft pick instead of letting him walk. We could've tried to trade Willie when he started bitching, same with Levi. Get something for them. Don't just let them walk.

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='OneHeartBeat' timestamp='1288925379' post='937408']
One of the things the Patriots do is that there not afraid to trade away players to stockpile future draft picks. They have 2 picks in each of the first 3 rounds this year. That's how they stay good year after year. The Colts are excellent at finding recievers. They cut harrison and dont miss a beat. They lose Dallas Clark and his backup comes in and dosen't miss a beat. It's sickening to watch these other teams do it and wonder why cant we do that?

Trade Chad for a draft pick. If we end up drafting high in the 1st round, trade down and stockpile some picks. [b]We should have tried to trade TJ for a draft pick instead of letting him walk. We could've tried to trade Willie when he started bitching, same with Levi. Get something for them. Don't just let them walk.[/b]
[/quote]


you don't know that they didn't try.


As for Chad, may be past that point. He's got an option next year, but doubtful they could pick up the option and then pull off a trade. Especially with how he's playing.


Tough to use the Colts as an example. Peyton makes all of those WR's and TE's so much better.


The one key thing the Colts and Patriots do is that they draft SMART players. Players who know the game in and out, can learn information quickly, are versatile, and are going to stay focused. All issues with many Bengals players. Focus, doing the little things correctly, and playing smart.

[|OneHeartBeat|]

[quote name='Bengals1181' timestamp='1288926020' post='937412']
you don't know that they didn't try.


As for Chad, may be past that point. He's got an option next year, but doubtful they could pick up the option and then pull off a trade. Especially with how he's playing.


Tough to use the Colts as an example. Peyton makes all of those WR's and TE's so much better.


The one key thing the Colts and Patriots do is that they draft SMART players. Players who know the game in and out, can learn information quickly, are versatile, and are going to stay focused. All issues with many Bengals players. Focus, doing the little things correctly, and playing smart.
[/quote]

They may have tried but I have a hard time believing it though. I agree that the colts draft smart guys which is what we need to do. I like chad and TO but I can't help but think their personalities conflict with Palmers. I'd be happy with a couple more Shipley's. In hindsight, MB probably would've been smart to trade Chad when he was asking to be traded and we probably could've got the MLB we DESPERATLY need or the pass rusher we desperatly need.

[beastmaster]

[quote name='OneHeartBeat' timestamp='1288930503' post='937424']
They may have tried but I have a hard time believing it though. I agree that the colts draft smart guys which is what we need to do. I like chad and TO but I can't help but think their personalities conflict with Palmers. I'd be happy with a couple more Shipley's. In hindsight, MB probably would've been smart to trade Chad when he was asking to be traded and we probably could've got the MLB we DESPERATLY need or the pass rusher we desperatly need.
[/quote]

CJ would've actually netted some good draft picks back then too. Didn't Washington offer two first rounders and a second or something ridiculous like that?

That was just mike brown power trippin. Good job dipshit.