The State of the Cincinnati Bengals !!!

[cwing]

[size="7"]This OLINE SUCKS !!!![/size]

All need to go!!!

Roland
Cook
Livings
Williams

Ain't getting it done at LT......

Move Whit to RT. Don't hope and wait for Andrea to come back. Bring someone in to push/compete with him. If he makes it back he and Whit would be a great right side. If you bring someone in that beats Smith out ------ good. You will be better for it. Is Collins a solution on teh left side at LT or LG. I don't know but it is time to find out.

Honestly I do not know if Carson is the QB he once was or the Qb of the future. However, give the guy a chance. Something like 9 hurries, 7 hits, 5 knockdowns and 3 sacks. Those numbers may be off by one or two but that is almost 25 hits out of something like 38 attempts. That is something like 60% of the time the man is getting hit.

Defenders are coming clean from the middle and both edges. Cp is taking pain shots in the shoulder and on crutches during the week. Give the guy $100 mill and do next to nothing to protect him.


and yes -------- so do the Special Teams !!!!

[|OneHeartBeat|]

The O-line sux, Palmer makes piss-poor decisions, the WO's run wrong routes, no pass rush, special teams sux. In watching the post game press conference, Palmer looks defeated to me and I love TO's passion. It's a shame that a future hall of famer may never win a ring. He still has a lot left.

[Bengals_12th_Man]

I can't say I disagree, cwing. Who knows what the upcoming off season will bring. Changes need to be made, but I'm wary of how much MB will demand. Some need to go, but there's good talent on this team. It just needs to be coached better and motivated.

[cwing]

[quote name='Bengals_12th_Man' timestamp='1290784195' post='945486']
I can't say I disagree, cwing. Who knows what the upcoming off season will bring. Changes need to be made, but I'm wary of how much MB will demand. Some need to go, but there's good talent on this team. It just needs to be coached better and motivated.
[/quote]


I respectfully disagree. The talent is overrated. Benson a FA and likely gone -- they barely use Scout and Leonard is not an every down player. The punter shanks about every 5th kick. Place kicker is an issue. TO, COC and CP's best days are all behind them. Nothing else at WR but Shipley and he will never be more than a slot guy/3rd reciever. There are likely no more than 2-3 starting NFL quality players on the roster in the Oline. Very little potential for improvement on the current roster.

More potential on D. However, still no playmaker in the front 7 to bring the heat. Hall or JJ will not be back. Safety was a big issue coming off of 09 ------ remains an issue. Duke is a backup.

[Le Tigre]

I wish most of you could remember what the offseason of 1987-1988 was like.

The '87 team was coming on the heels of a just-missed '86 playoff squad--one that was #1 in the AFC in total offense. There were a lot of hopes in 1987...but just about everything that could go wrong did. From the last-second loss to the 49ers...to the strike...to the replacement games...to complete breakdowns on both sides of the ball (with essentially the same personnel as '86)...it was as mind-boggling as it was depressing. In the stadium on home Sundays...you could just feel the anger and depression every game.

I remember the last home game of that season. Before the sign police could get around to take them down...there were signs galore saying "C ya Sam!" and ones like it. Sam and staff was so good as gone...it was a foregone conclusion that '88 would have a completely different coaching staff. In addition..there was a "blow it up" sense going on too--especially the defense. I was thinking that we could probably see Norman, Brooks..even Munoz gone before the next year.

Then PB came out early-on after the end of the season and said '87 was an "aberration"...and that the entire coaching staff would be returned. For better or worse, they were going to hold the line and just write off 1987. The next year, of course, was history.

Not saying this offseason will be dealt with the same way...or even believe it should be. Just saying...MB might look at 2010 as the "aberration". We just don't know.

[bengalbutch]

The team is just bad from top to bottom. Everyone knows the offensive line is horrible. We really have nothing on the line, maybe Whit.
Carson is awful, getting older and beat up.
But I think you see how bad the Bengals as a team are on special teams. If we are kicking off, basically its the 35 yard line before our first wave gets to the ball carrier. When we receive a kick off, they are to B Scott before he reaches the 20. It's like we have a team full of guys that don't block or tackle.
Rico Murray come from PS to active and he is a standout on s teams. Same for Jeromy Miles this week. I'm not sure we have much talent at all on this team.

[Bengals_12th_Man]

[quote name='cwing' timestamp='1290785065' post='945490']
I repectfully disagree. The talent is overrated. Benson a FA and likely gone -- they barely use Scout and Leonard is not an every down player. The punter shanks about every 5th kick. Place kicker is an issue. TO, COC and CP's best days are all behind them. Nothing else at WR but Shipley and he will never be more than a slot guy/3rd reciever. There are likely no more than 2-3 starting NFL quality players on the roster in the Oline. Very little potential for improvement on the current roster.

More potential on D. However, still no playmaker in the front 7 to bring the heat. Hall or JJ will not be back. Safety was a big issue coming off of 09 ------ remains an issue. Duke is a backup.
[/quote]


I think differently. Carson is your traditional pocket-passing quarterback. He's no Vick. But I believe he still has that Pro Bowl ability. Give him time to look down field not just down and I believe he'd be a different player.

Our O-line needs to addressed extensively this off season. They seemed to have lost that push in the running game they had last year and everyone knows they don't pass pro well. Drastic changes need to be made there. Fixing the line would make all the difference in the world for the offense.

[|SF2|]

[quote name='Le Tigre' timestamp='1290785298' post='945491']
I wish most of you could remember what the offseason of 1987-1988 was like.

The '87 team was coming on the heels of a just-missed '86 playoff squad--one that was #1 in the AFC in total offense. There were a lot of hopes in 1987...but just about everything that could go wrong did. From the last-second loss to the 49ers...to the strike...to the replacement games...to complete breakdowns on both sides of the ball (with essentially the same personnel as '86)...it was as mind-boggling as it was depressing. In the stadium on home Sundays...you could just feel the anger and depression every game.

I remember the last home game of that season. Before the sign police could get around to take them down...there were signs galore saying "C ya Sam!" and ones like it. Sam and staff was so good as gone...it was a foregone conclusion that '88 would have a completely different coaching staff. In addition..there was a "blow it up" sense going on too--especially the defense. I was thinking that we could probably see Norman, Brooks..even Munoz gone before the next year.

Then PB came out early-on after the end of the season and said '87 was an "aberration"...and that the entire coaching staff would be returned. For better or worse, they were going to hold the line and just write off 1987. The next year, of course, was history.

Not saying this offseason will be dealt with the same way...or even believe it should be. Just saying...MB might look at 2010 as the "aberration". We just don't know.
[/quote]

1987 vs 2011 based on your theory. Ages for 2011 will be their ages next year.

QB Boomer Esiason age 27 Better than Palmer age 32
RB James Brooks 30 Way Better than Bernard Scott 27 or Ced Benson. Brooks averaged over 5yd per carry from 88-90.
FB/RB Ickey Woods 22 Better than Ced Benson 27 (until Icky got hurt next year) or mystery Fullback.
FB Stanley Wilson 25 Better than Mystery Fullback.
WR Eddie Brown 26 Worse but not by far to Chad Ochocinco 33 assuming he is back. Eddie was in his prime and ran great routes.
WR Tim McGee 24 Better than mystery #2 receiver. Assuming TO, 37 not coming back.
WR CCollinsworth 29 Worse than Ship at this point. CC was done.
TE Rodney Holman 28 Equal to Gresham. Holman was pretty good. I think Gresh will be better.
LT Anthony Munoz 30 Better than anyone in the league. Whit or Smith, doesn't matter. Nothing against Whit. Good player but its Munoz.
LG Bruce Reimers 28 LOL. Yeah, WAY better than Livings and Mathis.
C Bruce Kozerski 26 LOL. Yep, another not even close. Cook 28.
RG Max Montoya 32 Better than Bobbie Williams 35. Bobbie has been a damn fine player. Montoya was better and younger at this point.
RT Joe Walter 25 He is way better than Andre Smith. If Whit played here it would be closer. I like Whit.


Defensive Line

Krumrie, Skow, Mclendon better than what we have. Warming up to Dunlap.
LBs: Reggie William getting old but pretty good. Current team better.
CBs: Billups and Eric Thomas were pretty good and durable. JoJo and Hall better but not by alot. JoJo may be gone anyways.
FS: Fulcher and S Wilcots better than curent and again DURABLE.

Sorry but that 88 team had talented YOUNGER players at almost every position. O line was sick and defense had better lineman and more talent across the board. 88 team had quite a few playmakers at defense where current team has JoJo.

Your dream scenario only works if you have players to do it. You simply can not compare what that 88 team had on its roster to what we have now. No way.

And the idea that Boomer, Brooks or Munoz might have been gone is nonsense. Munoz was all pro that year.
The 1987 4-11 team was ranked 5th in offensive yards and 8th in yards allowed on defense. They just broke down in the red zone. That can be fixed. The curent team is ranked 20th and 17th and going the wrong way in a hurry.

[|kennethmw|]

[quote name='Le Tigre' timestamp='1290785298' post='945491']
I wish most of you could remember what the offseason of 1987-1988 was like.

The '87 team was coming on the heels of a just-missed '86 playoff squad--one that was #1 in the AFC in total offense. There were a lot of hopes in 1987...but just about everything that could go wrong did. From the last-second loss to the 49ers...to the strike...to the replacement games...to complete breakdowns on both sides of the ball (with essentially the same personnel as '86)...it was as mind-boggling as it was depressing. In the stadium on home Sundays...you could just feel the anger and depression every game.

I remember the last home game of that season. Before the sign police could get around to take them down...there were signs galore saying "C ya Sam!" and ones like it. Sam and staff was so good as gone...it was a foregone conclusion that '88 would have a completely different coaching staff. In addition..there was a "blow it up" sense going on too--especially the defense. I was thinking that we could probably see Norman, Brooks..even Munoz gone before the next year.

Then PB came out early-on after the end of the season and said '87 was an "aberration"...and that the entire coaching staff would be returned. For better or worse, they were going to hold the line and just write off 1987. The next year, of course, was history.

Not saying this offseason will be dealt with the same way...or even believe it should be. Just saying...MB might look at 2010 as the "aberration". We just don't know.
[/quote]

Good post.

[|Tigers Johnson|]

[quote name='cwing' timestamp='1290785065' post='945490']
I repectfully disagree. The talent is overrated. Benson a FA and likely gone -- they barely use [b]Scout[/b] and Leonard is not an every down player. The punter shanks about every 5th kick. Place kicker is an issue. TO, COC and CP's best days are all behind them. Nothing else at WR but Shipley and he will never be more than a slot guy/3rd reciever. There are likely no more than 2-3 starting NFL quality players on the roster in the Oline. Very little potential for improvement on the current roster.

More potential on D. However, still no playmaker in the front 7 to bring the heat. Hall or JJ will not be back. Safety was a big issue coming off of 09 ------ remains an issue. Duke is a backup.
[/quote]

Freudian slip?

[Le Tigre]

[quote name='SF2' timestamp='1290789442' post='945502']
1987 vs 2011 based on your theory. Ages for 2011 will be their ages next year.

QB Boomer Esiason age 27 Better than Palmer age 32
RB James Brooks 30 Way Better than Bernard Scott 27 or Ced Benson. Brooks averaged over 5yd per carry from 88-90.
FB/RB Ickey Woods 22 Better than Ced Benson 27 (until Icky got hurt next year) or mystery Fullback.
FB Stanley Wilson 25 Better than Mystery Fullback.
WR Eddie Brown 26 Worse but not by far to Chad Ochocinco 33 assuming he is back. Eddie was in his prime and ran great routes.
WR Tim McGee 24 Better than mystery #2 receiver. Assuming TO, 37 not coming back.
WR CCollinsworth 29 Worse than Ship at this point. CC was done.
TE Rodney Holman 28 Equal to Gresham. Holman was pretty good. I think Gresh will be better.
LT Anthony Munoz 30 Better than anyone in the league. Whit or Smith, doesn't matter. Nothing against Whit. Good player but its Munoz.
LG Bruce Reimers 28 LOL. Yeah, WAY better than Livings and Mathis.
C Bruce Kozerski 26 LOL. Yep, another not even close. Cook 28.
RG Max Montoya 32 Better than Bobbie Williams 35. Bobbie has been a damn fine player. Montoya was better and younger at this point.
RT Joe Walter 25 He is way better than Andre Smith. If Whit played here it would be closer. I like Whit.


Defensive Line

Krumrie, Skow, Mclendon better than what we have. Warming up to Dunlap.
LBs: Reggie William getting old but pretty good. Current team better.
CBs: Billups and Eric Thomas were pretty good and durable. JoJo and Hall better but not by alot. JoJo may be gone anyways.
FS: Fulcher and S Wilcots better than curent and again DURABLE.

Sorry but that 88 team had talented YOUNGER players at almost every position. O line was sick and defense had better lineman and more talent across the board. 88 team had quite a few playmakers at defense where current team has JoJo.

Your dream scenario only works if you have players to do it. You simply can not compare what that 88 team had on its roster to what we have now. No way.

And the idea that Boomer, Brooks or Munoz might have been gone is nonsense. Munoz was all pro that year.
The 1987 4-11 team was ranked 5th in offensive yards and 8th in yards allowed on defense. They just broke down in the red zone. That can be fixed. The curent team is ranked 20th and 17th and going the wrong way in a hurry.
[/quote]

Thanks for the recap...but I already knew that then. A sizeable number of those players were on the '86 team...which turned into the '87 team...which turned into the '88 team. I was just referencing what the mood was back then: not a whole lot different than it is now.

And it isn't my "dream scenario"...I am just musing whether MB may look over this year's mess and see it as his Dad did--just an "aberration". Or whether he'll do something different. I was just saying that we don't know at this point.

[|SF2|]

[quote name='Le Tigre' timestamp='1290791337' post='945514']
Thanks for the recap...but I already knew that then. A sizeable number of those players were on the '86 team...which turned into the '87 team...which turned into the '88 team. I was just referencing what the mood was back then: not a whole lot different than it is now.

And it isn't my "dream scenario"...I am just musing whether MB may look over this year's mess and see it as his Dad did--just an "aberration". Or whether he'll do something different. I was just saying that we don't know at this point.
[/quote]

Well, hopefully MB realizes this team really sucks talent wise on the lines. That is what is killing us period. If he thinks this team in current form can rebound, he is delusional.

BTW, I saw something really odd in yesterday's game. Carson did a play action fake that was Boomeresque. Really worked although he threw it to a defended receiver. Anyone would have cut off the route behind the LBs would have been WIDE open. LBs bit hard on that fake.

Mike Brown did just about everything that could be asked for this off season. Spent a lot of money and I seriously don't think he made the final decision on guys like Bryant or even Smith last year. Something really has to change.

[Le Tigre]

[quote name='SF2' timestamp='1290791565' post='945517']
Well, hopefully MB realizes this team really sucks talent wise on the lines. That is what is killing us period. If he thinks this team in current form can rebound, he is delusional.

BTW, I saw something really odd in yesterday's game. Carson did a play action fake that was Boomeresque. Really worked although he threw it to a defended receiver. Anyone would have cut off the route behind the LBs would have been WIDE open. LBs bit hard on that fake.

Mike Brown did just about everything that could be asked for this off season. Spent a lot of money and I seriously don't think he made the final decision on guys like Bryant or even Smith last year. Something really has to change.
[/quote]

Couldn't agree more...just don't know what. Or when. Or who.

[-GoBengals-]

[quote name='cwing' timestamp='1290782633' post='945476']
[size="7"]This OLINE SUCKS !!!![/size]

All need to go!!!

Roland
Cook
Livings
Williams

Ain't getting it done at LT......

Move Whit to RT. Don't hope and wait for Andrea to come back. Bring someone in to push/compete with him. If he makes it back he and Whit would be a great right side. If you bring someone in that beats Smith out ------ good. You will be better for it. Is Collins a solution on teh left side at LT or LG. I don't know but it is time to find out.

Honestly I do not know if Carson is the QB he once was or the Qb of the future. However, give the guy a chance. Something like 9 hurries, 7 hits, 5 knockdowns and 3 sacks. Those numbers may be off by one or two but that is almost 25 hits out of something like 38 attempts. That is something like 60% of the time the man is getting hit.

Defenders are coming clean from the middle and both edges. Cp is taking pain shots in the shoulder and on crutches during the week. Give the guy $100 mill and do next to nothing to protect him.


and yes -------- so do the Special Teams !!!!
[/quote]


whit needs to be a LG where he was a fucking monstering badass motherfucker of epic proportions... get a LT, get whit to LG, get a real fucking center, move fat tits to RG if he isnt going to play RT well enough.. and get a RT or if fat tits WILL play well enough let bobbie finish out.. he is more than good enough if he isnt surrounded by dudes that suck ass..

wonder is that C stephens is good for anything? guess the contract of kyle cook will tell us in a few months...

[JC]

I thought the offensive line was good? That's what most were saying at the start of the year..

Whit is the only one out of the five that should be starting next year.

[bengaled]

[quote name='JC' timestamp='1290794316' post='945527']
I thought the offensive line was good? That's what most were saying at the start of the year..

[/quote]


we just believed the coaching staff. that's what they told us. that's also what the owner told us. we didn't acquire anyone in FA. we didn't draft anyone of importance for help, either.

[cwing]

[quote name='Le Tigre' timestamp='1290785298' post='945491']
I wish most of you could remember what the offseason of 1987-1988 was like.

The '87 team was coming on the heels of a just-missed '86 playoff squad--one that was #1 in the AFC in total offense. There were a lot of hopes in 1987...but just about everything that could go wrong did. From the last-second loss to the 49ers...to the strike...to the replacement games...to complete breakdowns on both sides of the ball (with essentially the same personnel as '86)...it was as mind-boggling as it was depressing. In the stadium on home Sundays...you could just feel the anger and depression every game.

I remember the last home game of that season. Before the sign police could get around to take them down...there were signs galore saying "C ya Sam!" and ones like it. Sam and staff was so good as gone...it was a foregone conclusion that '88 would have a completely different coaching staff. In addition..there was a "blow it up" sense going on too--especially the defense. I was thinking that we could probably see Norman, Brooks..even Munoz gone before the next year.

Then PB came out early-on after the end of the season and said '87 was an "aberration"...and that the entire coaching staff would be returned. For better or worse, they were going to hold the line and just write off 1987. The next year, of course, was history.

Not saying this offseason will be dealt with the same way...or even believe it should be. Just saying...MB might look at 2010 as the "aberration". We just don't know.
[/quote]


You would have to ignor 2008 (5-10-1), the weakness of the 2009 schedule and losing the final 4 of 5 or 5 of six in 2009.

[cwing]

[quote name='Bengals_12th_Man' timestamp='1290788297' post='945500']
I think differently. Carson is your traditional pocket-passing quarterback. He's no Vick. But I believe he still has that Pro Bowl ability. Give him time to look down field not just down and I believe he'd be a different player.

Our O-line needs to addressed extensively this off season. They seemed to have lost that push in the running game they had last year and everyone knows they don't pass pro well. Drastic changes need to be made there. Fixing the line would make all the difference in the world for the offense.
[/quote]


they didn't lose the push -------- the push came from something like 60-70% overloaded line sets. Just like the Wildcat is now dead --- the NFL figured out how to handle the overloaded line sets and it is not likely to work longterm. At the end of the day you need to be able to run or pass with balance or be dominate on in an area. No RT, No Lg, old Rg, Lt out of position and these were all true last season as well.

[cwing]

[quote name='Tigers Johnson' timestamp='1290790263' post='945505']
Freudian slip?
[/quote]


Oops. Looks like I left something out. Amazing how much difference a letter can make.

[cwing]

[quote name='Bengals_12th_Man' timestamp='1290788297' post='945500']
I think differently. Carson is your traditional pocket-passing quarterback. He's no Vick. But I believe he still has that Pro Bowl ability. Give him time to look down field not just down and I believe he'd be a different player.

Our O-line needs to addressed extensively this off season. They seemed to have lost that push in the running game they had last year and everyone knows they don't pass pro well. Drastic changes need to be made there. Fixing the line would make all the difference in the world for the offense.
[/quote]


I do not disagree that he is a pocket passer and protecting your $100m player should have been your first priority since he was signed. However, he may again be very good with better tools and protection (running game & pass protection). That siad, he is unlikely to be better than he was in his past and will be lucky to get back to where he was. Bad elbow, bad ankle, bad shoulder and now on in his 30's, etc...

[cwing]

[quote name='GoBengals' timestamp='1290792286' post='945520']
whit needs to be a LG where he was a fucking monstering badass motherfucker of epic proportions... get a LT, get whit to LG, get a real fucking center, move fat tits to RG if he isnt going to play RT well enough.. and get a RT or if fat tits WILL play well enough let bobbie finish out.. he is more than good enough if he isnt surrounded by dudes that suck ass..

wonder is that C stephens is good for anything? guess the contract of kyle cook will tell us in a few months...
[/quote]


I think we agree that wholesale changes are needed in the group.

Me --- I'd rather have a Lg that can pull. Whit is a mauler and skill set would be very well suited for RT. Smith at RG and the right side should be good w/two of the players on the current roster. Center -- Lg --- Lt are huge questions. Are there answers already on the roster? Don't know --- hope so but I doubt it. Stephens/Collins? How about what's his name on IR -- Fresno guys was on D moved to Oline?

[|Dr Tarzan|]

1987 seemed like an aberration....just like 2009. I don't think this year's team is the aberration...last year's team was.

[bengaled]

[quote name='cwing' timestamp='1290803050' post='945579']
they didn't lose the push -------- the push came from something like 60-70% overloaded line sets. Just like the Wildcat is now dead --- the NFL figured out how to handle the overloaded line sets and it is not likely to work longterm. At the end of the day you need to be able to run or pass with balance or be dominate on in an area. No RT, No Lg, old Rg, Lt out of position and these were all true last season as well.
[/quote]


add a FB and fuck that extra TE or tackle. it keeps you more versatile and makes the defense guess more where the playcall is going.

[bengaled]

[quote name='cwing' timestamp='1290803585' post='945586']
I think we agree that wholesale changes are needed in the group.

Me --- I'd rather have a Lg that can pull. Whit is a mauler and skill set would be very well suited for RT. Smith at RG and the right side should be good w/two of the players on the current roster. Center -- Lg --- Lt are huge questions. Are there answers already on the roster? Don't know --- hope so but I doubt it. Stephens/Collins? How about what's his name on IR -- Fresno guys was on D moved to Oline?
[/quote]


don't be fooled. whit's fine. put a dependable LG beside him and he looks even better... helping guard against the B gap rush. that turnstyle that current resides at the LG position impacts what you think you're seeing out of your LT.

[STRAYCAT]

[quote name='cwing' timestamp='1290803323' post='945585']
I do not disagree that he is a pocket passer and protecting your $100m player should have been your first priority since he was signed. However, he may again be very good with better tools and protection (running game & pass protection). That siad, he is unlikely to be better than he was in his past and will be lucky to get back to where he was. Bad elbow, bad ankle, bad shoulder and now on in his 30's, etc...
[/quote]
One play I saw on replay was Carson throwing into triple coverage and killed the drive and Gresham was wide open ans would of had a first down to keep the drive going....Carson is locking on 1 guy....makes me wonder