The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly - Browns game 2

[Bengals1181]

http://www.nfl.com/videos/cincinnati-bengals/0ap2000000283121/Week-11-Browns-vs-Bengals-highlights

 

 

thanks.  I'll stand by it.  If Green had cut out, he crosses in front of Hayden and its very unlikely there's a pick on that play.

 

Who knows who screwed up, but they clearly weren't on the same page. 

[|Bunghole|]

The bad: James Harrison is going to seek out Brandon Thompson and his family and fucking murder them. And then maybe he will smile.

[JBandJoeyV]

 

he was talking about calling routes over the middle specifically, not the overall problems with the offense.  He's stated at least 4 times since the end of the game that Dalton didn't play well.  

Yup. Its funny how you knew exactly what I meant but he didnt. Reading 101.

[Bengals1181]

 

When I said "its play calling not dalton" I was referring to not calling passes over the middle/not being able to complete those passes. Im saying that Dalton CAN complete those passes and it isnt because he cant that Gruden isnt calling them. I dont know why Gruden isnt calling them, but thats on him not andy.

 

Now the next part of my post said dalton played bad. I never said he didnt. Dalton played very bad today IMO. Im not saying that if they start calling plays over the middle he will suddenly be awesome, but I do think play calling does have a very big impact on his performance. 

Dalton still has to execute on the plays that are called, but gruden can definitely make it easier for him by using more of the field than just the sideline.

I dont think there is anything wrong with saying that...

 

 

It's just the same 'ol same 'ol.  

[|Numbers|]

 

did Dye do anything other than the return?  Not to diminish it, but it was kind of a right place, right time thing.  

 

It's not necessarily what he did, it is what he didn't do.

 

To me when someone comes directly off the practice squad and put on the team makes me eyeball them a little closer.  There mere fact he missed nothing and his name was not called out makes me believe he did just fine.  This in itself is a very good thing for someone in his position coming from the practice squad IMHO.

[Rumble In the Jungle]

Good: Win

Bad: Offense
 
Ugly:   Dalton critics.  Clearly the WRs are running the wrong routes and Jay Gruden is telling him to throw into double coverage late, telling Dalton to lock onto his guy and throw it into coverage, doesn't matter if you have Gio wide open in the middle of the field....... how can he call those plays?  Shitty Gruden.  The line sucked as well, everything sucked so poor Andy didn't look super awesome.   Fixing this offense is easy.....get all new line, WRs and OC.  Keep the sure thing in Dalton, otherwise, clean house.   There's simply no excuse any more for how this offense is holding Dalton back.

You are a retard if you think this was Andy's fault

[Rumble In the Jungle]

Yup. Its funny how you knew exactly what I meant but he didnt. Reading 101.

It's funny that you needed a co-signer!

[Bengals1181]

 

It's not necessarily what he did, it is what he didn't do.

 

To me when someone comes directly off the practice squad and put on the team makes me eyeball them a little closer.  There mere fact he missed nothing and his name was not called out makes me believe he did just fine.  This in itself is a very good thing for someone in his position coming from the practice squad IMHO.

 

 

yea I guess just the way I see it, it was Dimanche that made the play and it just happened to fall right at Dye's feet.  That's why I said right place right time type of thing.

[bubba]

 
 
thanks.  I'll stand by it.  If Green had cut out, he crosses in front of Hayden and its very unlikely there's a pick on that play.
 
Who knows who screwed up, but they clearly weren't on the same page. 

I'll stand by what I said. No way should either pass have been thrown

[alleycat]

1.  Is 44 ( Dye ) for real or is he just an anomaly ?  I thought for what he did, he played very well.

 

 Could be. Eventually. He was considered the top safety coming into his senior season but then totally disappeared.  The coaches have used him as a CB occasionally, so they obviously think he has some cover skills.  I'd be happy with a younger Crocker for some depth regardless...

[|Bunghole|]

Good: Win

Bad: Offense

 

Ugly:   Dalton critics.  Clearly the WRs are running the wrong routes and Jay Gruden is telling him to throw into double coverage late, telling Dalton to lock onto his guy and throw it into coverage, doesn't matter if you have Gio wide open in the middle of the field....... how can he call those plays?  Shitty Gruden.  The line sucked as well, everything sucked so poor Andy didn't look super awesome.   Fixing this offense is easy.....get all new line, WRs and OC.  Keep the sure thing in Dalton, otherwise, clean house.   There's simply no excuse any more for how this offense is holding Dalton back. 

There's no need for this. Dalton played badly. It's now what, 8 picks in three games, including a pick six? I don't care necessarily who's fault it is. He wasn't good today, at all. There's no sugar coating it.

 

It's a serious cause for concern going forward.

[bengaled]

 

due to karma. i dont rub things in. i jump, yell, celebrate and high five the bengals fans around me. i fear if i gloat or rub it in that we will somehow blow it or someone on our team will blow a knee out so i dont. haha

 

 

i wouldn't question a guy's game day karma thing... totally understand.

[Bengals1181]

I'll stand by what I said. No way should either pass have been thrown

 

 

I don't know why you would think that.  If Green had cut out, he would have been standing on the 3 and its likely a completion.  

 

 

[bengaled]

 

Oh for fuckssake, don't be that guy. They have completed plenty of balls over the middle this year. Even short middle (those nice checkdowns to Gio, for instance). No reason to be a complete dink. 

 

 

on top of which, a lot of those passes are touch passes, where you put air underneath them. they wouldn't be subject to getting batted down at the LOS.

[gatorclaws]

I'll stand by what I said. No way should either pass have been thrown

 

 I haven't watched a replay so I'm just going off what I think I saw form the stands. On pick 2, Haden started 10-15 yards back and was never forced to backpedal. He watched Dalton the whole way and easily picked it. I agree it definitely shouldn't have been thrown.

 

I don't have a strong opinion on pick 1. Lots of Browns players in the area, but also clearly a miss communication.

[JBandJoeyV]

 

 

I don't know why you would think that.  If Green had cut out, he would have been standing on the 3 and its likely a completion.  

 

 

 

Yeah i think thats a pretty good screen shot although if you can do a slow motion GIF by any chance it might be better. If I recall, AJ was running straight on at the 3, and cut inside towards the LB like you can see above. With the LB having inside coverage, I would think AJ should have cut out right? If he did I think he would have been right where the ball was. He would have had position over Haden to catch it. Worse case probably would have been a knock down.

 

Still dont necessarily think it was a great play, but it shouldnt have been a pick.

 

The pick 6 on the other hand I think was squarely on AD.

[WRAPradio]

 
Thats the dumbest thing ive ever heard. You see far more pick 6s in this league on out routes and sideline routes that CBs jump, than on passes over the middle. Not to mention by not using the middle of the field it allows the defense to play those outside routes more predictably.
 
Dalton can throw over hte middle, he has done it plenty of times in his career and a ton of times in his great October run. Also did a lot of slants and crossing routes.
 
This game? None. 0. Zilch.

Its play calling not dalton.
With that being said, dalton didnt perform on the outside routes like he should have. he had a really bad game no doubt. But hes not to blame for gruden not calling passes over the middle (at least I dont think he is unless hes choosing not to throw to those routes?)

I sure there's at least one route over the middle on most plays; maybe not the primary receiver

[Bengals1181]

 

Yeah i think thats a pretty good screen shot although if you can do a slow motion GIF by any chance it might be better. If I recall, AJ was running straight on at the 3, and cut inside towards the LB like you can see above. With the LB having inside coverage, I would think AJ should have cut out right? If he did I think he would have been right where the ball was. He would have had position over Haden to catch it. Worse case probably would have been a knock down.

 

Still dont necessarily think it was a great play, but it shouldnt have been a pick.

 

The pick 6 on the other hand I think was squarely on AD.

 

 

I'll try to do one later.  I stopped it as Green was just turning left.  If he had turned right, there's no way it gets picked unless he tips it into the air.  

 

Dalton postgame said there was miscommunication on what they were trying to do.

[alleycat]

I only saw a hazy feed up to the Harrison INT from the airport and then listened to the rest of the games on the radio on the plane, so the first disclaimer is that I didn't see the whole game. But from that perspective, the things that jumped out to me:

 

I remain firm in my belief that Andy Dalton's biggest problem is forcing the ball to AJ Green.  Other than a few anomalies, AJ has actually gotten MORE yards when Dalton is spreading it around elsewhere.  For some reason, whether it's Dalton on Gruden, when using him as a security blanket that needs his "touches" bad things happen.  The West Coast Offense is built on the ability to spread the ball around and NOT force it to an individual.  Of course, as I've said frequently, if Dalton doesn't have time he can't progress to the open receiver, and that was still an issue from the little I saw. 

 

Either way, 1181's comment that the problem is clearly that the QB and the star WR are not on the same page is correct.  AJ's quote post game that he went around a linebacker instead of sitting in the area he was expecting speaks volume.  In a game based on precision, you can't free-lance.  AJ has unreal talent and has gotten to the top of the heap on athletic ability.  He needs to get his head in the game more though, and then he'll be the best in the game, bar none. 

 

I still think Dalton is easily a top 12 QB now and has the potential to be top 5.  We could win the Super Bowl with a lot worse. What he needs to learn is not to force the ball, and to be a better game manager.  He seems a little bit narcissisitic and prone to want to "prove himself," which couldn't be worse for a WCO QB IMO.  Still, I saw nothing in this game that makes me want to freak out and get another QB. 

 

Because I still have a bone to pick with the O-Line.  HOWEVER, I was heartened to see that the running game got going toward the end of the game, when the Browns knew we were going to run it.  That string of 6+yard runs that culminated in the only pass of the drive for a TD was a thing of beauty, and, I hope, portends a turning point for the O-Line.  Frankly, the drive itself reeked of Martin, over the hike, stepping in and saying "Run it. Run it. Run it." Gruden just can't resist himself.

 

To that end, the lateral passes and quick outs have been driving me fucking nuts.  I want to put together a video cut up of all of the INT's on those outs and on the balls to AJ.  They have to account for a serious majority.  A vertical passing game doesn't have to mean that you're throwing long ball.  But you do have to throw it vertically, you know, forward down the field. I don't know if it's the batting problem (which is real), or that Andy doesn't see as well, or that those passes are hard to throw as the pocket is collapsing in your face, but they need to find a way to right at the Defense rather than constantly playing around them.  It slows us down, and isn't playing the strengths we have.

 

Lastly, it's been said before but we CANNOT understate the importance of the play of Harrison.  Literally, we looked like we were lying down to die when he FUCKING TOOK OVER.  It's a shame he didn't get the TD, but everyone in the world saw what went down, and that was an old warrior doing what he does best - and the way the D rallied around him was just phenomenal.  The D is just stunning, brilliant, jaw dropping.

[JBandJoeyV]

I sure there's at least one route over the middle on most plays; maybe not the primary receiver

 

Well they didnt run a single play where the primary receiver was going over the middle. Go watch the game against the jets or lions or something and see how different the play calling was. Its day and night.

[JBandJoeyV]

I only saw a hazy feed up to the Harrison INT from the airport and then listened to the rest of the games on the radio on the plane, so the first disclaimer is that I didn't see the whole game. But from that perspective, the things that jumped out to me:

 

I remain firm in my belief that Andy Dalton's biggest problem is forcing the ball to AJ Green.  Other than a few anomalies, AJ has actually gotten MORE yards when Dalton is spreading it around elsewhere.  For some reason, whether it's Dalton on Gruden, when using him as a security blanket that needs his "touches" bad things happen.  The West Coast Offense is built on the ability to spread the ball around and NOT force it to an individual.  Of course, as I've said frequently, if Dalton doesn't have time he can't progress to the open receiver, and that was still an issue from the little I saw. 

 

Either way, 1181's comment that the problem is clearly that the QB and the star WR are not on the same page is correct.  AJ's quote post game that he went around a linebacker instead of sitting in the area he was expecting speaks volume.  In a game based on precision, you can't free-lance.  AJ has unreal talent and has gotten to the top of the heap on athletic ability.  He needs to get his head in the game more though, and then he'll be the best in the game, bar none. 

 

I still think Dalton is easily a top 12 QB now and has the potential to be top 5.  We could win the Super Bowl with a lot worse. What he needs to learn is not to force the ball, and to be a better game manager.  He seems a little bit narcissisitic and prone to want to "prove himself," which couldn't be worse for a WCO QB IMO.  Still, I saw nothing in this game that makes me want to freak out and get another QB. 

 

Because I still have a bone to pick with the O-Line.  HOWEVER, I was heartened to see that the running game got going toward the end of the game, when the Browns knew we were going to run it.  That string of 6+yard runs that culminated in the only pass of the drive for a TD was a thing of beauty, and, I hope, portends a turning point for the O-Line.  Frankly, the drive itself reeked of Martin, over the hike, stepping in and saying "Run it. Run it. Run it." Gruden just can't resist himself.

 

To that end, the lateral passes and quick outs have been driving me fucking nuts.  I want to put together a video cut up of all of the INT's on those outs and on the balls to AJ.  They have to account for a serious majority.  A vertical passing game doesn't have to mean that you're throwing long ball.  But you do have to throw it vertically, you know, forward down the field. I don't know if it's the batting problem (which is real), or that Andy doesn't see as well, or that those passes are hard to throw as the pocket is collapsing in your face, but they need to find a way to right at the Defense rather than constantly playing around them.  It slows us down, and isn't playing the strengths we have.

 

Lastly, it's been said before but we CANNOT understate the importance of the play of Harrison.  Literally, we looked like we were lying down to die when he FUCKING TOOK OVER.  It's a shame he didn't get the TD, but everyone in the world saw what went down, and that was an old warrior doing what he does best - and the way the D rallied around him was just phenomenal.  The D is just stunning, brilliant, jaw dropping.

 

Agreed all around. Good post.

[Oldcat]

There's no need for this. Dalton played badly. It's now what, 8 picks in three games, including a pick six? I don't care necessarily who's fault it is. He wasn't good today, at all. There's no sugar coating it.

 

It's a serious cause for concern going forward.

 

sounds like he had a bad quarter.  The other three seemed ok - making turnovers pay off with TDs, running the clock, getting 4th quarter scores to put the game away.

[Jamie_B]

Reading 101, lol.

 

More like hey guys look over here so were not looking at the obvious 101

[Rumble In the Jungle]

Reading 101, lol.
 
More like hey guys look over here so were not looking at the obvious 101

Dude, the homerism on this site is on another level.

[JBandJoeyV]

Reading 101, lol.

 

More like hey guys look over here so were not looking at the obvious 101

 

How was anything that I said wrong? I said dalton played like shit. Did I type a 3 page  post about it? No, everyone else is quick to point it out. I didnt need to write an essay on all the shit dalton did wrong today.

With that being said, if you think it is all on his shoulders you are an idiot. There was a lot of other things going on today, one of the biggest being play calling. If you can watch a whole game and see that we didnt call one play where the primary receiver was between the numbers and think play calling wasnt an issue you once again are an idiot.

ive said over and over today that dalton played bad today. How does that make what the rest of what I said wrong?