Question for the "Dalton Haters"...hypothetically

[-GoBengals-]

For the sake of perspective, Luck has been more inconsistent this year if anything and they both have the same overall QBR.   AD has more TD's but also more INTs.  He also has approximately 200 times as much scrutiny.

 

 

 

what are you talking about.

 

talking about fishing for a comparison.

 

for almost 3 years now, there has been a QBR tool that is targeted to accurately rate the QB. it doesnt give the QB credit for the -2 yard screen pass that gets run for 87 yards and a TD. its a weighted system based on situation, down and distance, distance ball travels in air vs total yards, etc.

 

why would you rate a qb who throws a screen pass that gets run for 35 yards and a score (see giovani bernard several times, A Hawkins long run last year, etc.) the same score?

 

they arent the same thing. and they didnt take the same amount of skill from the QB, nfl.com rates those two things exactly the same. so andy could throw 3 screens for 40 yards td's, throwing the ball safely behind the LOS, and luck could throw 3 35 yard passes run 5 yards for TD's, and those are equal @ nfl.com

 

is that equal in your mind? if it is, then you have no intention of truly evaluating a quarterback. none what so ever..

 

as of today, at ESPN with the weighted total QBR system(which is a rating of 1-100 instead of 1-152.49(orwhatever)...

 

Luck is 6th in the nfl with a 65.4 rating... and Dalton is 20th, with a 50.1 rating.

 

meaning he has to do less to get the stats he is getting..nfl.com QBR gives the QB total credit for all stats regardless of the real life situation.

 

yesterday being a prime example, he throw for under 50% and less than 95 passing yards, but 3 TD's..  yards per pass attemt was stupid low, etc..

 

it is a far more realistic view at QB's in the league.

 

http://espn.go.com/nfl/qbr

 

to rate what Luck does in that offense and is asked to do, and compare it to what andy does and is asked to do and make them equal is just crazy...

[Oldcat]

You weren't such a fan of QBR when Dalton was ringing up high 90s game scores.

[Bgal]

No!  The one place he should channel more Brees is being a TD throwing QB!

Brees didn't throw over 30 TDs until his 8th year in the league. Andy has time if that's what you want.

[gatorclaws]

 

 

6 bad?

 

If forced to put each game in a good or bad category I have Steelers, Browns, Patriots, Dolphins, Ravens, Browns as bad games. Perhaps I'm remembering some wrong.

[Bgal]

First, QBR is fucking idiotic.

Also, if the 2 yard dump pass is open for 35 yards then it was the right play and the QB did his job. Why the hell would a smart QB make a risker throw if a guy is standing wide open right in front of him?

[Bengals1181]

 

If forced to put each game in a good or bad category I have Steelers, Browns, Patriots, Dolphins, Ravens, Browns as bad games. Perhaps I'm remembering some wrong.

 

 

I certainly wouldn't put Patriots or Steelers in the bad.  Neither were overly great but certainly not bad. 

 

Pit:  280yds, 55.6% 1 TD, 0 INT, 81.7 rating. Nothing special, but career highs in most every statistical category against Pittsburgh

 

NE:  212yds, 74.1% 0 TD, 1 INT, 81.1 rating.  Again, not great but not really bad either.

 

 

Probably middle of the road for both. Better performances and both are blowouts, but neither were bad performances that cost them the game. When I think bad, I think the last two weeks which probably rank as two of the worst games of his career.  Even Miami wasn't that bad if you consider 2 of the 3 picks weren't considered his fault.  It was mainly the ugly pick 6 that changed the game. 

[Orange 'n Black]

 

 

 

what are you talking about.

 

talking about fishing for a comparison.

 

for almost 3 years now, there has been a QBR tool that is targeted to accurately rate the QB. it doesnt give the QB credit for the -2 yard screen pass that gets run for 87 yards and a TD. its a weighted system based on situation, down and distance, distance ball travels in air vs total yards, etc.

 

why would you rate a qb who throws a screen pass that gets run for 35 yards and a score (see giovani bernard several times, A Hawkins long run last year, etc.) the same score?

 

they arent the same thing. and they didnt take the same amount of skill from the QB, nfl.com rates those two things exactly the same. so andy could throw 3 screens for 40 yards td's, throwing the ball safely behind the LOS, and luck could throw 3 35 yard passes run 5 yards for TD's, and those are equal @ nfl.com

 

is that equal in your mind? if it is, then you have no intention of truly evaluating a quarterback. none what so ever..

 

as of today, at ESPN with the weighted total QBR system(which is a rating of 1-100 instead of 1-152.49(orwhatever)...

 

Luck is 6th in the nfl with a 65.4 rating... and Dalton is 20th, with a 50.1 rating.

 

meaning he has to do less to get the stats he is getting..nfl.com QBR gives the QB total credit for all stats regardless of the real life situation.

 

yesterday being a prime example, he throw for under 50% and less than 95 passing yards, but 3 TD's..  yards per pass attemt was stupid low, etc..

 

it is a far more realistic view at QB's in the league.

 

http://espn.go.com/nfl/qbr

 

to rate what Luck does in that offense and is asked to do, and compare it to what andy does and is asked to do and make them equal is just crazy...

 

QBR is just one tool out of many, and unlike the majority of statistics, ESPN does not unveil the exact methodology used to calculate QBR. The only way to relate it to anything else is because ESPN says a 50 is average. What do you have to do to earn a 50 QBR? What do they think is an "average" game? QBR is nice to throw out there because, yes, it indicates some kind of positive play, but you're crazy if you think you can build any sort of half decent argument around QBR alone - ESPECIALLY since you seem to want to use it to handwave away any positive Dalton stats! Dalton doesn't get credit for his good stats because his mystical QBR isn't as good? What kind of bullshit is that? 

[Bgal]

Just looked at the QBR list just to see how stupid it really is. Kaep is higher than Dalton. Dude hasn't thrown for more than 200 yards but twice this season. Does this system give points for being asked to do nothing?

[alleycat]

Brees didn't throw over 30 TDs until his 8th year in the league. Andy has time if that's what you want.

 

Tssssssssssst. 

 

That's the sound of the hairs on your ass getting scorched by Bgal.

Just looked at the QBR list just to see how stupid it really is. Kaep is higher than Dalton. Dude hasn't thrown for more than 200 yards but twice this season. Does this system give points for being asked to do nothing?

 

It's pathetic.  The whole thing based on a bunch of highly subjective, fan-boy criteria.

[gatorclaws]

 

 

I certainly wouldn't put Patriots or Steelers in the bad.  Neither were overly great but certainly not bad. 

 

Pit:  280yds, 55.6% 1 TD, 0 INT, 81.7 rating. Nothing special, but career highs in most every statistical category against Pittsburgh

 

NE:  212yds, 74.1% 0 TD, 1 INT, 81.1 rating.  Again, not great but not really bad either.

 

 

Probably middle of the road for both. Better performances and both are blowouts, but neither were bad performances that cost them the game. When I think bad, I think the last two weeks which probably rank as two of the worst games of his career.  Even Miami wasn't that bad if you consider 2 of the 3 picks weren't considered his fault.  It was mainly the ugly pick 6 that changed the game. 

 

I remember the Pit game he started real bad but then recovered later. You're right though, I should categorize some as average/neutral instead of just good/bad.

 

My biggest concern is clearly the turnovers. It's concerning that Dalton seems to be playing some of his worst career games lately instead of progressing. If necessary, they should scale back the offense and focus on no turnovers. The D is good enough to win us most games if we stop giving the other team the ball.

[alleycat]

 

My biggest concern is clearly the turnovers. It's concerning that Dalton seems to be playing some of his worst career games lately instead of progressing. If necessary, they should scale back the offense and focus on no turnovers. The D is good enough to win us most games if we stop giving the other team the ball.

 

I agree, but we need to be fair to Dalton on those TO's.  How many times have our receivers just been out-muscled and out-hustled for the ball? Tipped a pass for an INT?  Run the wrong route resulting in an INT?  It's happening a lot, and Dalton can't be blamed for all of those.

[Bengals1181]

 

I remember the Pit game he started real bad but then recovered later. You're right though, I should categorize some as average/neutral instead of just good/bad.

 

My biggest concern is clearly the turnovers. It's concerning that Dalton seems to be playing some of his worst career games lately instead of progressing. If necessary, they should scale back the offense and focus on no turnovers. The D is good enough to win us most games if we stop giving the other team the ball.

 

 

yea he was shaky early against pitt but finished I think 13 of 16.  

 

 

I think there's a number of things in play lately. 

 

1) Dalton simply isn't playing as well as he was earlier in the season.

2) There's been major miscommunication lately between Dalton and the receiving options.  Of Dalton's last 8 INT's, you can point to as many as 4 that aren't really his fault.

3) Playcalling has been inconsistent, particularly abandoning the running game against Baltimore and Miami  11/8/66 pass/run ratio

4) Division opponents are catching on to the Bengals offense and their tendencies.  They need to start mixing it up more, and its no surprise that some of the best plays yesterday were on plays you don't see often from the Bengals.

[Jungletiger]

Brees didn't throw over 30 TDs until his 8th year in the league. Andy has time if that's what you want.

 

 

 

Ok sure if you want to regard Andy as a scrub sure the comparison matches.

[alleycat]

 

Brees didn't throw over 30 TDs until his 8th year in the league. Andy has time if that's what you want.

 

 

 

Ok sure if you want to regard Andy as a scrub sure the comparison matches.

 

huh?

[gatorclaws]

 

I agree, but we need to be fair to Dalton on those TO's.  How many times have our receivers just been out-muscled and out-hustled for the ball? Tipped a pass for an INT?  Run the wrong route resulting in an INT?  It's happening a lot, and Dalton can't be blamed for all of those.

 

perhaps it's a faulty assumption, but I assume those things happen to every QB and should even out. I have to assume Dalton is still near the top of the league in bad throw/bad decision INTs.

[Rumble In the Jungle]

 

It's pathetic.  The whole thing based on a bunch of highly subjective, fan-boy criteria.

 

You really should work for the  NFL. They should hire you. I bet you can fix all these PATHETIC stuff they have and make it what the fans really want. WHat do these guys know. You are a genius. You are wasting your time typing on a fan forum where fans jerk each other and talk about we are the best of Z best.

[Jungletiger]

huh?

 

You say I got burned because of bgal's comment comparing Dalton to Brees, because I said Andy should be more like Brees a TD machine.  My comment relates to her trying to excuse Andy's troubles regarding to my TD machine comment by her saying it took Brees 7 years to become the TD machine.  So to that I say since Andy only has only played 2 seasons and is in his third, if were going to compare then you compare to Brees first 3 years, and in that time frame he was considered bad too.

 

Most teams are not going to wait 7 years for a player to "get it" and Drew Brees cases are rare.

 

In summation if she didn't burn me.

[alleycat]

 

You say I got burned because of bgal's comment comparing Dalton to Brees, because I said Andy should be more like Brees a TD machine.  My comment relates to her trying to excuse Andy's troubles regarding to my TD machine comment by her saying it took Brees 7 years to become the TD machine.  So to that I say since Andy only has only played 2 seasons and is in his third, if were going to compare then you compare to Brees first 3 years, and in that time frame he was considered bad too.

 

Most teams are not going to wait 7 years for a player to "get it" and Drew Brees cases are rare.

 

In summation if she didn't burn me.

huh?

[Bgal]

 
You really should work for the  NFL. They should hire you. I bet you can fix all these PATHETIC stuff they have and make it what the fans really want. WHat do these guys know. You are a genius. You are wasting your time typing on a fan forum where fans jerk each other and talk about we are the best of Z best.

Actually, ESPN created the QBR, not the NFL. It's probably a terrible product on purpose. It allows articles such as, "Tebow posts better QBR than Rodgers" to exist even though Rodgers actually won his game and threw for more than 100 yards.

[New Jersey Bengal]

 

I agree, but we need to be fair to Dalton on those TO's.  How many times have our receivers just been out-muscled and out-hustled for the ball? Tipped a pass for an INT?  Run the wrong route resulting in an INT?  It's happening a lot, and Dalton can't be blamed for all of those.

This is the best post about Dalton that I have read. Yes he is defintely to blame on some of his passes but no one talks about the 5 drops in the Ravens game as well as the drops in the Dolphins especially the one that Sanu dropped in OT. If he makes that catch we win. Dalton is not to blame for all of the offesive woes. He can play better for sure and I believe he will.

[MichaelWeston]

I agree, but we need to be fair to Dalton on those TO's.  How many times have our receivers just been out-muscled and out-hustled for the ball? Tipped a pass for an INT?  Run the wrong route resulting in an INT?  It's happening a lot, and Dalton can't be blamed for all of those.

Shouldn't he roof nice these things though?

[Oldcat]

Shouldn't he roof nice these things though?

 

Huh?

[MichaelWeston]

Ha ipad fixed it. Shouldn't dalton notice these things?

[bengaled]

 

Points and wins count, not yards.  This isn't fantasy football.  If he stunk it up early, he did what he had to late.  

 

I've never claimed Dalton was a football god, but he makes more good plays than bad.  If every player on the team follows suit, we will be a force to be reckoned with.  Looks like the D and ST picked up some slack - lets praise them for it instead of ignoring it.

 

 

helluva post...props.

[alleycat]

Ha ipad fixed it. Shouldn't dalton notice these things?

 

I'm not sure what you mean.  How can he notice that a WR isn't going to make a catch, or fight for the ball, or run the wrong route (in the cases of the wrong routes he throws the ball to a spot before they make the cut - which is how the play is supposed to go).