Question for the "Dalton Haters"...hypothetically

[|Numbers|]

Also, I thought I saw during a broadcast that the league is now nearly 60% pass vs run but I am not sure.

Not a hater. I hope he becomes the guy that was on fire for a month and not the guy looks like a career backup.

 

Great idea.  The league is currently running from 45.15 - 70 Percent.  Cincinnati is at 58.68%.  Most teams are up from 2012.  In other words, teams are passing more as you suspect.

 

http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/passing-play-pct

[-GoBengals-]

Who would you want to replace him?

 

Please try to be realistic.  

 

I would assume with our remaining schedule, 4 home games out of 6, and still good defense I would assume we would be drafting in the 21 range.

We are not going to trade into the top 10.  There are currently 5 QBs with first round grades and 4 will likely be off the board in the top 10 to 12.

 

Most of the "good" FA QBs would either be tagged, or probably out of the Bengals price range given the other contracts they will need to pay the next season or 2.

 

How often do we trade player for player for something comparable to a starting QB?

 

 

So, who, realistically, do you want?

 

anyone capable of improvement and development. There will be plenty of developmental QB's in the 2nd and third rounds. juniors coming out early, I wanted Foles badly, pocket passer who can make all the throws just needed 1-2 years to adapt to the NFL game.

 

i want a QB who isnt at his peak ability the day we draft them.

 

i would love mettenberger, he is big, strong arm, i dont care if he sits behind dalton next year to get into the swing of things. I just need to know the nightmare is coming to an end.

 

Mettenberger is 6'5" good arm, and could take full advantage of the big ass targets and the burner targets we have. and having a deep ball threat offense would make BJGE and Bernards life so much easier as well.

 

Having a young QB learn the ropes is easiest with a badass defense. It stuck with me when ray lewis was talking about flacco a few years ago, and he would throw a pick and ray said he would go say throw it again if it gets picked we will get you the ball back... like our defense does.. or just flat scores points themselves...

 

mccaron would be my pipe dream...

 

Garoppolo, Jeff Mathews and Fales are also on my Radar.

 

I think all have different readiness levels but all have the tools to do some great things in the NFL. and I think our defense and weapons on offense couldnt be a better place to come to ...

 

I dont think the fast run threat QB's fit the system as well... another dark horse late pick would be tom savage.

[T-Dub]

For the sake of perspective, Luck has been more inconsistent this year if anything and they both have the same overall QBR.   AD has more TD's but also more INTs.  He also has approximately 200 times as much scrutiny.

[|ArmyBengal|]

Well if you want the same maddening inconsistency but with a bigger arm, rumor is Jay Cutler is out of Chi-Town at the end of the season.

 

Big Ben would be weird, but I was a fan of him coming out of Miami.

 

the other Vets are pitiful

 

And who wants to start with another rookie?

 

I agree with keeping Dalton at the right price, but he's not worth being the highest paid Bengal.

[Bengals1181]

 

 

I think it's hard to compare a QBs numbers from different eras...it's much easier to throw the ball in today's NFL.  Not saying Dalton is better or worse at this stage, just saying it's difficult to interpret what they mean.  I know you were just looking at it b/c Maine mentioned it.  

 

 

that's why I included Brady's # of attempts.  His 2nd and 3rd years he had attempt figures comparable to today's era.

[Bengals1181]

I would go get a new OC before dumping on Dalton.  

 

 

I like Gruden, he just clearly doesn't have a mastery of what he likes to do best yet.  The players are trying to master his system, that he himself hasn't finished developing yet.

 

It was always going to be a risk putting a rookie OC with a rookie QB.  A vet OC with a rookie QB or vet QB with a rookie OC would have been a heck of a lot less risky.  For better or worse, they're learning on the job together.

[cincity]

 

 

I like Gruden, he just clearly doesn't have a mastery of what he likes to do best yet.  The players are trying to master his system, that he himself hasn't finished developing yet.

 

It was always going to be a risk putting a rookie OC with a rookie QB.  A vet OC with a rookie QB or vet QB with a rookie OC would have been a heck of a lot less risky.  For better or worse, they're learning on the job together.

 

I think they're trying to fit non WCO WRs into a WCO system.

[Bengals1181]

One difference. Everyone throws more now than in Brady's first 3 seasons. Manning, Brady, Brees, rule changes, etc have changed the game.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d82a44e69/article/passing-league-explaining-the-nfls-aerial-evolution

 

 

not really.  Brady's 2nd year had 72 more attempts than Dalton's career high, and his 3rd year is only 2 less than Dalton's career high.

 

That's why I included Brady's attempt numbers.

[Bengals1181]

 

anyone capable of improvement and development. There will be plenty of developmental QB's in the 2nd and third rounds. juniors coming out early, I wanted Foles badly, pocket passer who can make all the throws just needed 1-2 years to adapt to the NFL game.

 

i want a QB who isnt at his peak ability the day we draft them.

 

i would love mettenberger, he is big, strong arm, i dont care if he sits behind dalton next year to get into the swing of things. I just need to know the nightmare is coming to an end.

 

Mettenberger is 6'5" good arm, and could take full advantage of the big ass targets and the burner targets we have. and having a deep ball threat offense would make BJGE and Bernards life so much easier as well.

 

Having a young QB learn the ropes is easiest with a badass defense. It stuck with me when ray lewis was talking about flacco a few years ago, and he would throw a pick and ray said he would go say throw it again if it gets picked we will get you the ball back... like our defense does.. or just flat scores points themselves...

 

mccaron would be my pipe dream...

 

Garoppolo, Jeff Mathews and Fales are also on my Radar.

 

I think all have different readiness levels but all have the tools to do some great things in the NFL. and I think our defense and weapons on offense couldnt be a better place to come to ...

 

I dont think the fast run threat QB's fit the system as well... another dark horse late pick would be tom savage.

 

 

the really funny part of this post:

 

 

There's a number of scouts that compare Mettenberger to Andy Dalton.  

[cwing]

that's why I included Brady's # of attempts.  His 2nd and 3rd years he had attempt figures comparable to today's era.

Yes, but completions are coming easier now and that may not show up in the stats. As a matter of fact, many of the rule changes were a result of NE's defenses tackling Colts and Rams wide receivers well before the ball. The NFL didn't like those fancy high scoring offenses being shut down cuz it looked ugly but NE won SB's because of it.

[cwing]

not really.  Brady's 2nd year had 72 more attempts than Dalton's career high, and his 3rd year is only 2 less than Dalton's career high.
 
That's why I included Brady's attempt numbers.

Did you happen to read the article attached to my post? It even quotes Mike Zimmer regarding why it is now easier to throw the ball.

On average the NFL is a far more wide open passing league than ever before. That does not mean that there were not pass happy teams in the past. What it means is passing in easier now that it ever has been and many more marginal players will have inflated stats in the passing game.

In a nut shell, in many cases, average players are putting up big numbers but they do not compare to the greats.

[Bengals1181]

 

I think they're trying to fit non WCO WRs into a WCO system.

 

 

I think they have a good mix of guy's to attack any defense, it's a matter of knowing what your guys do best and sticking to it.  

 

AJ can win against any defense.  Gresham and Eifert likewise match up well against any defense.  Gio and Hawkins also both have certain advantages vs man and zone coverages.

 

If a team is going to play you man, you use a lot of Marvin Jones.  If they are going to play you zone, you let Sanu do what he does best, finding the holes in zone.  

 

 

A lot of it comes down to Dalton being inconsistent, and Gruden also being inconsistent with his philosophy and using his personnel to its maximum potential.  

[sois]

I would prefer G. Harrell

[cwing]

Great idea.  The league is currently running from 45.15 - 70 Percent.  Cincinnati is at 58.68%.  Most teams are up from 2012.  In other words, teams are passing more as you suspect.
 
http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/passing-play-pct

Thank you.

2013 15 teams are passing 60+% of the time. In 2003, 3 teams passed 60+% of the time.

[T-Dub]

I like how there are people giving negative rep to dry, factual statements that run counter to their opinions. 

[alleycat]

I like how there are people giving negative rep to dry, factual statements that run counter to their opinions.

Not that rep points matter but that is nothing new. It's a useless feature without accountability. Cowardice abounds.

[HairOnFire]

Not that rep points matter but that is nothing new. It's a useless feature without accountability. Cowardice abounds.

 

It's a pretty good bet that whenever Lucid reads the above you'll be rewarded with a -1. 

[|Harley|]

 
I think they're trying to fit non WCO WRs into a WCO system.

x2

[T-Dub]

 

I think they're trying to fit non WCO WRs into a WCO system.

 

I'm not sure if there's a system that calls for the receivers to be near the top of the league in dropped passes. All of them are capable of making the grabs in traffic when they're focused and piling on the YAC. FWIW this is still the 7th-ranked passing offense despite all the flailing. 

[|Harley|]

It's a QB league so much so that as ridiculous as this will sound, here's the right plan:

1. Before the draft, re-sign Dalton to a manageable contract with trade options. While he's not a top 10 QB he's steady enough to be a major factor in having a winning team vs. a losing team. Signing a vet to replace him is a lateral move at best. Dalton is worth keeping.

2. With the first or second pick they must draft a QB. He will not be the starter but will learn and compete through the first year. He may not play much but he will evaluated in every possible way. If he's clearly better than Dalton, he will earn the starting role in the latter part of the season.

3. In 2015, it will be decision time to either start the second year guy and trade Dalton for picks or position of need or sit on the young guy again but let him truly compete for the starting job.

4. QBs always have trade value. The following year, Dalton or the young guy must be traded and you then draft another QB and repeat the cycle. This isn't a revolving door rather a plan to constantly elevate the QB talent on the team.

Yes, I know this ties up a good amount of cap money at the QB position. It's a QB league and warrants it.

[T-Dub]

2. With the first or second pick they must draft a QB.
 

 

 

Um.. Why?  It was posted in another thread, but there are 9 teams throwing the ball as often as the Bengals. Of those, there are *4* QB's with a better rating than Dalton. Peyton Manning is the only one of them that doesn't play in a dome.  You want them to waste a first or 2nd round pick on a QB..  Sorry, I just don't understand where some of you are getting this stuff.  A month ago dude was on fire & everyone was happy. Two bad games with an injured OL & more dropped passes than I can count & he's garbage again.  There are 10 other guys on the field with him that might be worth a look if you want to go drafting replacements.

[|Harley|]

 
 
Um.. Why?  It was posted in another thread, but there are 9 teams throwing the ball as often as the Bengals. Of those, there are *4* QB's with a better rating than Dalton. Peyton Manning is the only one of them that doesn't play in a dome.  You want them to waste a first or 2nd round pick on a QB..  Sorry, I just don't understand where some of you are getting this stuff.  A month ago dude was on fire & everyone was happy. Two bad games with an injured OL & more dropped passes than I can count & he's garbage again.  There are 10 other guys on the field with him that might be worth a look if you want to go drafting replacements.

Here's what I think most can agree on:

1. Dalton is good but a better QB would be preferred if possible.

2. A better QB is an easier path to win a Super Bowl.

3. Discarding Dalton in hopes of getting better is very risky and could result in going backwards.

4. This risk is worrisome to many (me) and makes us pause on many suggested moves. Status quo may better in many scenarios.

5. Hence, my plan above is to invest in Dalton + Rookie to achieve to the ultimate goal while reducing risk of wasting all the talent compiled on this team.

[SouthPaw]

After the last 4 or 5 games last season I was firmly in the group of Dalton will never lead us to the Super Bowl.   At this point in the 2013 season I am in the group that Gruden and everyone else on the offense has to get their shit together. 

 

Im a bit mixed on this concept as there were plenty clean pockets in the Miami game, particularly on the two interceptions(first to green, second to jones in the red zone) and Dalton didn't deliver the football accurately.  Before there is a protest to this, I will accept Sterling Sharpe's pedigree and viewpoint well before I will accept a fan's on this board.  Those balls were clearly poorly thrown.  However, in the past game against the Ravens, the line struggled to provide those same clean pockets.  Although, there are still plays that could have been made not just by Dalton, but eifert, sanu, jones, etc., as well.  So, again, its a mixed  bag for me.

[MichaelWeston]

Some dudes to try as backups next year as Dalton has another year in his contract
There is a reason why everyone of these guys would be avalable but all have potential.
Brian Hoyer-1 more year in Cleveland but possibly cut.
Mark Sanchez-likely cut
Matt Schaub
Blaine Gabbert
Chase Daniel
Matt Cassell
Josh Freeman
Drew Stanton
Austin Davis-Rams

If you want to go all in and replace him next year
Ryan Mallett
Cutler
Vick

How many of these are obvious upgrades over Dalton. The answer to that is none. I think that if we decide that Dalton is not the guy this offseason that the draft is probably the way to go. My guess is they don't decide that. With that in mind I would try to get 1 of 3 players to come and backup Dalton with the idea that I think all 3 could be capable starters in this offense if Dalton continues to play poorly.

1. Brian Hoyer-Browns has one year left but coming off torn ACLs might be out there.
2. Chase Daniel-Played solid when he got the chance and I am surprised he signed a 3 year deal to be a backup in KC. My guess is that he will likely be cut as he has a pretty big payday coming for a backup. Not sure though. I think he would be great here.
3. Austin Davis-Rams I was completely surprised they went with Clemons when Bradford got hurt. This guy is a surprise and will start at one point.

None of the 3 are sure fire upgrades but all three have skill sets that would fit this offense well.

[T-Dub]

Here's what I think most can agree on:

1. Dalton is good but a better QB would be preferred if possible.

2. A better QB is an easier path to win a Super Bowl.

3. Discarding Dalton in hopes of getting better is very risky and could result in going backwards.

4. This risk is worrisome to many (me) and makes us pause on many suggested moves. Status quo may better in many scenarios.

5. Hence, my plan above is to invest in Dalton + Rookie to achieve to the ultimate goal while reducing risk of wasting all the talent compiled on this team.

 

My point being that you could make this same argument about anyone on the team, but as far as your #3:  There are positions on the team where there is less chance of "going backwards" in looking for a replacement & a greater likelihood of breaking even at worst. 

 

 

Im a bit mixed on this concept as there were plenty clean pockets in the Miami game, particularly on the two interceptions(first to green, second to jones in the red zone) and Dalton didn't deliver the football accurately.  Before there is a protest to this, I will accept Sterling Sharpe's pedigree and viewpoint well before I will accept a fan's on this board.  Those balls were clearly poorly thrown. 

 

Unless, of course, the WR ran a bad route.  Not saying they did because IDK if that's the case.  Then again, neither does Sterling Sharpe. But..

 

I just went to NFL.com and watched both of the plays you mentioned. In both cases the receiver had the ball in their hands and let the defender take it away from them. This has been happening a LOT this year. Defer to Sterling Sharpe or whoever you want, but if you go watch them again both passes are accurate enough that the receiver had both hands on the ball and then let themselves get mugged for it. Closer to a fumble than an INT if you ask me...  Which, again, I have seen far, far too many times this year.

 

Have a look:

 

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2013103100/2013/REG9/bengals@dolphins#tab=recap&menu=highlights