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How far can Andy Dalton take the Bengals?

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48 minutes ago, SF2 said:

I didnt think the oline was horribe tonight.  So Ross has a fumble and he sits the rest of the game?  WTF?

But Ced can be a turnstile at both RT and LT and get a starting job without any competition and Dalton can lead this team to historically awful offense performances and not see the bench....makes a lot of sense, definitely shows he he has a firm grasp on things. 

 

With a hypocriticaly leader how can this team win? 

 

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6 hours ago, PatternMaster said:

Andy "Low Ceiling" Dalton strikes again....

I like ya man, and I'm in no way defending Andy's 2017 play, but I'm not 100% sure you realize what "low ceiling" means. 

 

Andy is a wildly inconsistent, low floor-high ceiling QB. You're just being a disingenuous extremist at this point for whatever reason.

 

Even if the guy posts 14 more games like the first 2, he can't be low ceiling with his previous career, we can't pretend that shit never happened. Go ahead and say that Andy is broken or that he sucks now because at this point none of us can argue with that. We've seen his ceiling though and it was pretty damn good even if that kind of play will never come back.

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This may be out in left field, but could it be possible that Andy is looking over his shoulder at a capable replacement and he can't handle that pressure now??

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1 hour ago, omgdrdoom said:

I like ya man, and I'm in no way defending Andy's 2017 play, but I'm not 100% sure you realize what "low ceiling" means. 

 

Andy is a wildly inconsistent, low floor-high ceiling QB. You're just being a disingenuous extremist at this point for whatever reason.

 

Even if the guy posts 14 more games like the first 2, he can't be low ceiling with his previous career, we can't pretend that shit never happened. Go ahead and say that Andy is broken or that he sucks now because at this point none of us can argue with that. We've seen his ceiling though and it was pretty damn good even if that kind of play will never come back.

His high ceiling only exists in low pressure games....when it's an important game or he is pressured, his ceiling because a crawl space.

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32 minutes ago, schotzee said:

This may be out in left field, but could it be possible that Andy is looking over his shoulder at a capable replacement and he can't handle that pressure now??

or looking over his shoulder thinking he is going to get hit in the middle of the back by a DE.

 

but yes. I think what you are saying could be true too.

 

this team is a mess.

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58 minutes ago, TheBeaverHunter said:

His high ceiling only exists in low pressure games....when it's an important game or he is pressured, his ceiling because a crawl space.

Unfortunately that's not a trait exclusive to Andy Dalton. For whatever reason, Marvin Lewis led teams typically look abysmal in high pressure games.

 

I can't call a guy low ceiling when he leads the team to an 8 game win streak to start the 2015 season with only ONE of those games having a passer rating under 95.9. Six of those games over a 115 rating. THAT is Andy Dalton's ceiling, the debatable part comes down to whether we ever see that Andy again. I'd agree with anyone that says we won't see that Andy again in Cincinnati because IMO we won't, I just can't call him low ceiling, that's silly considering what that term actually means.

 

Not many NFL QBs play very well when being pressured a lot by a defense, so it's hard to really knock Andy for that. My personal issue with the guy is that once he starts getting pressured, it's almost like he feels phantom pressure and throws like shit on plays where he actually has a clean pocket. You can rattle Andy easily at times, and that's not good at all for a professional quarterback.

 

Basically, there are a lot of flaws you can knock Andy for, but some people seem to want to just make stuff up when there's plenty of legitimate gripes to bitch about. Andy gets happy feet, starts throwing ducks, and feels pressure that doesn't exist when he gets rattled in a game - that actually happens. "Andy has a low ceiling" is simply bullshit. I won't defend the fact that Andy has played poorly in a lot of high pressure situations but I have to also throw in the fact that NO QB under Marvin has ever played well in the majority of high pressure games. I think Zampese and Marvin are bigger issues right now than Andy Dalton but I also don't know if Andy has it in him to play at a high level anymore (at least here). Is there really a point of letting another QB look like shit under Zampese/Marvin? I guess go for it if that's what everyone wants. I'd personally throw em all out at this point, fuck em. That pretty much sums up my thoughts on the matter.

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20 minutes ago, omgdrdoom said:

Not many NFL QBs play very well when being pressured a lot by a defense, so it's hard to really knock Andy for that. My personal issue with the guy is that once he starts getting pressured, it's almost like he feels phantom pressure and throws like shit on plays where he actually has a clean pocket. You can rattle Andy easily at times, and that's not good at all for a professional quarterback.

This.

 

The problem is Dalton appears to be very rattled and his play is awful.  He isn't cut out to succeed when he has to improvise.  He needs a clean pocket.  He isn't going to get that with the Bengals this season.  Some QBs do have confidence in that situation.  I was impressed with Watson last night.  He faced a lot of pressure as well, but handled it with poise.  Even after he got hit he made good passes on the next play.  Dalton does not do that.  That confidence trickles down to the rest of the offense.  I think it's time to see if McCarron is better equipped to handle that pressure and give the offense some confidence. 

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42 minutes ago, UncleEarl said:

This.

 

The problem is Dalton appears to be very rattled and his play is awful.  He isn't cut out to succeed when he has to improvise.  He needs a clean pocket.  He isn't going to get that with the Bengals this season.  Some QBs do have confidence in that situation.  I was impressed with Watson last night.  He faced a lot of pressure as well, but handled it with poise.  Even after he got hit he made good passes on the next play.  Dalton does not do that.  That confidence trickles down to the rest of the offense.  I think it's time to see if McCarron is better equipped to handle that pressure and give the offense some confidence. 

Totally agree with all of this!

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2 hours ago, omgdrdoom said:

Not many NFL QBs play very well when being pressured a lot by a defense, so it's hard to really knock Andy for that. My personal issue with the guy is that once he starts getting pressured, it's almost like he feels phantom pressure and throws like shit on plays where he actually has a clean pocket. You can rattle Andy easily at times, and that's not good at all for a professional quarterback.

I think A.J. did a nice job under pressure when Andy went down.

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Just now, Rick said:

I think A.J. did a nice job under pressure when Andy went down.

Small sample size, but sure I could go along with that. McCarron looked like he didn't get rattled by heavy pressure very much. You need more than just that trait to be a good starting QB though.

 

The dude holds onto the ball waaaay too long, like to the point where I'm legitimately afraid he could get severely injured behind our current OL if he has to play in a game. He needs to work on that arm too, I just laugh when the anti-Andy/pro-McScooter guys bash Andy for his arm strength and turn around and call for AJ to come into the game.

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37 minutes ago, omgdrdoom said:

Small sample size, but sure I could go along with that. McCarron looked like he didn't get rattled by heavy pressure very much. You need more than just that trait to be a good starting QB though.

 

The dude holds onto the ball waaaay too long, like to the point where I'm legitimately afraid he could get severely injured behind our current OL if he has to play in a game. He needs to work on that arm too, I just laugh when the anti-Andy/pro-McScooter guys bash Andy for his arm strength and turn around and call for AJ to come into the game.

McCarron has as many playoff TD passes as Andy and played OK in the second half of that playoff game, something Dalton has never done.  Don't forget, we are talking 2 home games so far this year and his 4th quarter performance has been putrid with only 45% of his passes completed.  

 

http://www.nfl.com/player/andydalton/2495143/situationalstats

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18 minutes ago, SF2 said:

McCarron has as many playoff TD passes as Andy and played OK in the second half of that playoff game, something Dalton has never done.  Don't forget, we are talking 2 home games so far this year and his 4th quarter performance has been putrid with only 45% of his passes completed.  

 

http://www.nfl.com/player/andydalton/2495143/situationalstats

From 2012 - 2015 Andy's 2nd best or best quarter every year has been the 4th. I'll give him more than 2 games before I claim he's completely garbage now, but I do think he's pretty broken with the current state of the team being considered as well. People are waaaaay overreacting to these first 2 games. I mean, I'm bummed out about it too and at this point (assuming we're going to have a top 5 pick in the draft) I'd be totally OK with Marvin, Zampese, and Andy all finding new jobs (after this season for Andy, the others can fuck off right now), BUT I'm also not 100% sure that Andy magically turned into a shit QB overnight. There's more to the puzzle here even though everyone just thinks clamoring for McScooter is the answer. The dude will get killed behind our OL with how long he holds onto the football.

 

I don't think Andy has much of a chance this year to be looked at as a good QB, but I don't think it's entirely his fault either. He's proven that he can excel with a good line, OC, and some weapons. We're missing 2 of those things this year. I think we need a new HC, OC, 3+ new linemen, AND a new QB before we'd see a championship with the core of this team. McCleatus (am I doing this right?) ain't going to fix the line and playcalling on his own.

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35 minutes ago, omgdrdoom said:

From 2012 - 2015 Andy's 2nd best or best quarter every year has been the 4th. I'll give him more than 2 games before I claim he's completely garbage now, but I do think he's pretty broken with the current state of the team being considered as well. People are waaaaay overreacting to these first 2 games. I mean, I'm bummed out about it too and at this point (assuming we're going to have a top 5 pick in the draft) I'd be totally OK with Marvin, Zampese, and Andy all finding new jobs (after this season for Andy, the others can fuck off right now), BUT I'm also not 100% sure that Andy magically turned into a shit QB overnight. There's more to the puzzle here even though everyone just thinks clamoring for McScooter is the answer. The dude will get killed behind our OL with how long he holds onto the football.

 

I don't think Andy has much of a chance this year to be looked at as a good QB, but I don't think it's entirely his fault either. He's proven that he can excel with a good line, OC, and some weapons. We're missing 2 of those things this year. I think we need a new HC, OC, 3+ new linemen, AND a new QB before we'd see a championship with the core of this team. McCleatus (am I doing this right?) ain't going to fix the line and playcalling on his own.

The reality is good quarterbacks find a way to be effective.  I have seen Manning, Brees, Favre, the Rapist and Brady play with far less talent on offense and make it to the Superbowl.  This is Andy's 7th year.  Yesterday, he displayed ZERO leadership, an inability to read the defense, an inability to deliver an accurate pass and  worst he didn't make plays.  Someone mentioned he didn't call any audibles.  How can it be possible that a 7 year starter isn't changing plays at the LOS once he sees the defense?

 

I am beginning to believe Andy Dalton only succeeded because Andrew Whitworth was the actual offensive team leader and Gruden and Hue Jackson were pretty good at hiding his weaknesses and playing to his strengths ( and were both good o coordinators).  Now that Dalton is expected to be the offensive leader and make more in game decisions, he is being exposed for what he is:  A mid tier system QB who needs a lot of help to be good (not great).  

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1 minute ago, SF2 said:

The reality is good quarterbacks find a way to be effective.  I have seen Manning, Brees, Favre, the Rapist and Brady play with far less talent on offense and make it to the Superbowl.  This is Andy's 7th year.  Yesterday, he displayed ZERO leadership, an inability to read the defense, an inability to deliver an accurate pass and  worst he didn't make plays.  Someone mentioned he didn't call any audibles.  How can it be possible that a 7 year starter isn't changing plays at the LOS once he sees the defense?

 

I am beginning to believe Andy Dalton only succeeded because Andrew Whitworth was the actual offensive team leader and Gruden and Hue Jackson were pretty good at hiding his weaknesses and playing to his strengths ( and were both good o coordinators).  Now that Dalton is expected to be the offensive leader and make more in game decisions, he is being exposed for what he is:  A mid tier system QB who needs a lot of help to be good (not great).  

I think that's pretty fair except I'd say he did show us greatness in spurts when he had a good OL, good OC, and good receiving threats around him. 2015 is our new 2005 in "what could have been" scenarios. But alas, we're 2 seasons removed from that already...

 

I guess I'll just say that everyone can bash Andy as much as they'd like but be careful what you wish for if you think ol' McScoots on the bench is the answer to the team's current problem. Spoiler alert - he's not.

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25 minutes ago, omgdrdoom said:

I think that's pretty fair except I'd say he did show us greatness in spurts when he had a good OL, good OC, and good receiving threats around him. 2015 is our new 2005 in "what could have been" scenarios. But alas, we're 2 seasons removed from that already...

 

I guess I'll just say that everyone can bash Andy as much as they'd like but be careful what you wish for if you think ol' McScoots on the bench is the answer to the team's current problem. Spoiler alert - he's not.

I agree, I don't think McCarron is the answer at this point although it can't hurt.  I don't see the team winning in Green Bay and 0-3 teams make the playoffs 3% of the time. Might as well give him a shot but Marvin won't do it since this is his last year if he does. 

 

The answer was to NOT to let Whit and Zietler walk and then, once they DID, the next obvious move was to pick a veteran tackle up in FA before the draft.

 

Since that didn't happen the next move is NOT drafting a shiny object at #9.  After two games there is NO way they ever saw an NFL caliber strarter in CED in practice.  There is no way they saw Andre Smith as an option. I don't care what anyone says I have never seen CED play even passable football nor has Andre played starter quality ball for 2 years.

 

Should have traded down and picked the 25 year old OT from UTAH Garrett Bolles and used the additional pick to get best available guard.   

 

Hopeing CED and Fisher would find Jesus before the first game was not a strategy.

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27 minutes ago, omgdrdoom said:

I think that's pretty fair except I'd say he did show us greatness in spurts when he had a good OL, good OC, and good receiving threats around him. 2015 is our new 2005 in "what could have been" scenarios. But alas, we're 2 seasons removed from that already...

 

I guess I'll just say that everyone can bash Andy as much as they'd like but be careful what you wish for if you think ol' McScoots on the bench is the answer to the team's current problem. Spoiler alert - he's not.

 You have no idea if McCarron is or isn't the answer, that's yet to be determined.  What we do know, however, is that Dalton is not.  This team needs a QB with a little pocket presence, who's no going to freak out when his first option is covered.  It needs a QB who's not going to leave the pocket and run straight into pressure and be sacked.

 

The line hasn't been all that good, but they're made to look worse with no awareness Andy doing what he does.  And there were many times the line gave him plenty of time, only to have Dalton hold on to the ball and not take any chance as to not throw another INT.  His confidence is shot, and he was never all that good to begin with.  I'd bench him sooner than later before the defense completely lays into the guy as they've started to do with Dunlap, Kirkpatrick and Adam Jones' comments.  

 

2015 only happened because of Hue Jackson. Without a top OC who knows how to mask Andy's many limitations and weaknesses, he's showing to be exactly what he is and has been this whole time...a limited QB physically who has no mental fortitude, no leadership ability.  At least McCarron isn't a mental midget like Dalton is.  He also has great leadership qualities although he too is limited arm strength wise.  

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21 minutes ago, Khatmandude said:

 You have no idea if McCarron is or isn't the answer, that's yet to be determined.  What we do know, however, is that Dalton is not.  This team needs a QB with a little pocket presence, who's no going to freak out when his first option is covered.  It needs a QB who's not going to leave the pocket and run straight into pressure and be sacked.

 

The line hasn't been all that good, but they're made to look worse with no awareness Andy doing what he does.  And there were many times the line gave him plenty of time, only to have Dalton hold on to the ball and not take any chance as to not throw another INT.  His confidence is shot, and he was never all that good to begin with.  I'd bench him sooner than later before the defense completely lays into the guy as they've started to do with Dunlap, Kirkpatrick and Adam Jones' comments.  

 

2015 only happened because of Hue Jackson. Without a top OC who knows how to mask Andy's many limitations and weaknesses, he's showing to be exactly what he is and has been this whole time...a limited QB physically who has no mental fortitude, no leadership ability.  At least McCarron isn't a mental midget like Dalton is.  He also has great leadership qualities although he too is limited arm strength wise.  

Eh. I feel like these 2 games have just finally given you and some others ammo to throw Andy under the bus. I don't think he's amazing and he definitely needs a supporting cast to look at his best (as most NFL QBs do), but I don't think he deserves the "mental midget", "many limitations and weaknesses", and other such comments directed at the guy after what he's accomplished here. I know I know, Hue Jackson, A.J. Green, blah blah blah Andy sucks, he got carried throughout his career, blah blah blah. He's not the first and won't be the last average to good QB to get driven out of this city and certain fans will never give him the credit for being as good as he has been at times.

 

I'm right with you hoping the team starts McCarron, but I believe we want him to be the starter for vastly different reasons. I've got my "LOL told ya so" on my clipboard ready to post in about a dozen different threads when the inevitable happens.

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11 minutes ago, omgdrdoom said:

Eh. I feel like these 2 games have just finally given you and some others ammo to throw Andy under the bus. I don't think he's amazing and he definitely needs a supporting cast to look at his best (as most NFL QBs do), but I don't think he deserves the "mental midget", "many limitations and weaknesses", and other such comments directed at the guy after what he's accomplished here. I know I know, Hue Jackson, A.J. Green, blah blah blah Andy sucks, he got carried throughout his career, blah blah blah. He's not the first and won't be the last average to good QB to get driven out of this city and certain fans will never give him the credit for being as good as he has been at times.

 

I'm right with you hoping the team starts McCarron, but I believe we want him to be the starter for vastly different reasons. I've got my "LOL told ya so" on my clipboard ready to post in about a dozen different threads when the inevitable happens.

The cold hard fact is you would have to search pretty hard to find a 2 game stretch that any of the better QBs  posted anything close to this bad at home against very average competition:

 

 

image.png

 

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54 minutes ago, Khatmandude said:

 You have no idea if McCarron is or isn't the answer, that's yet to be determined.  

 

He did start 6 games & it's not like he was exactly setting the world on fire.  Maybe he develops into something greater but he's not a complete unknown.  I think his greatest asset right now is that it doesn't say "Dalton" on the back of his jersey. 

 

As to this:

 

Quote

The line hasn't been all that good

 

You have a gift for understatement.  Chipotle "isn't all that good."  This OL is half a leftover Taco Bell burrito that you forget in your sealed-up car late one summer night.  All those faults in the QB you think the offensive scheme was built to cover for?  That's been our OL, at least equally.  Everyone was happy to overlook how suspect that group has been because we had Whitworth, but behind him the talent level has been average to shit for quite some time. They haven't gone from awesome to awful simply because of Ced.  They were never awesome, they just weren't asked to do much.

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Ummmm.... The offense went downhill when Zampese took over the play calling duties. We sucked on O last year when we had Zeitler and Whit.

Occam's razor says that might be the root of the issues.

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32 minutes ago, LostInDaJungle said:

Ummmm.... The offense went downhill when Zampese took over the play calling duties. We sucked on O last year when we had Zeitler and Whit.

Occam's razor says that might be the root of the issues.

 The offense did not suck last year.  Dalton had a QB rating of 91 and snuck into the Pro  Bowl.  That after losing Sanu and Jones.

 

If we lose to Green Bay and Dalton sucks there is no reason not to give AJ a shot.  Either figure out if he is better or make him (or Dalton) more valuable to trade.  Plenty of teams with old timers at QB.

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49 minutes ago, SF2 said:

The cold hard fact is you would have to search pretty hard to find a 2 game stretch that any of the better QBs  posted anything close to this bad at home against very average competition:

 

 

image.png

 

 

I don't know. I just looked through gamelogs of most good QBs and I see shit games all over the place.

 

I'm no expert, but I don't think the fact that they weren't back to back home games against specific competition makes their shitty games much different than Andy's shitty games. That's a really hard reach setting such specific criteria to prove how Andy isn't a good QB.

 

We can't pretend the rest of the dude's career never happened and it wasn't ancient history. He's been an average or better QB since entering the league and while he's played like shit in 2017, I can't put the majority of the blame on him like a lot of people have. If we win 3 games this year and Mikey drafts a new shiny QB I'll be totally on board with it so don't take this as me loving Andy Dalton's QB performances, I just don't think dude is nearly as bad as some of you guys are making it seem.

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3 minutes ago, omgdrdoom said:

 

I don't know. I just looked through gamelogs of most good QBs and I see shit games all over the place.

 

I'm no expert, but I don't think the fact that they weren't back to back home games against specific competition makes their shitty games much different than Andy's shitty games. That's a really hard reach setting such specific criteria to prove how Andy isn't a good QB.

 

We can't pretend the rest of the dude's career never happened and it wasn't ancient history. He's been an average or better QB since entering the league and while he's played like shit in 2017, I can't put the majority of the blame on him like a lot of people have. If we win 3 games this year and Mikey drafts a new shiny QB I'll be totally on board with it so don't take this as me loving Andy Dalton's QB performances, I just don't think dude is nearly as bad as some of you guys are making it seem.

I don't think he is that bad but if we go 0-3 there is no reason NOT to give McCarron a shot.  Season pretty much over at 0-3.

 

What I saw yesterday was a skittish nervous 7 year player on our side while the rookie who was taking an ass whoopin on the other team stood in there and made a few plays.

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52 minutes ago, SF2 said:

 The offense did not suck last year.  Dalton had a QB rating of 91 and snuck into the Pro  Bowl.  That after losing Sanu and Jones.

 

If we lose to Green Bay and Dalton sucks there is no reason not to give AJ a shot.  Either figure out if he is better or make him (or Dalton) more valuable to trade.  Plenty of teams with old timers at QB.

I love it when NFL.com does the work for me...

 

"The Bengals took a nose-dive last season across the board under Zampese, including sinking from seventh to 24th in points per game from 2015 to 2016. After generating an embarrassing nine total points, 258.0 yards per game, 79 rushing YPG, with four sacks per game in two losses to open the 2017 season, Lewis decided to make a change."

 

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20 minutes ago, LostInDaJungle said:

I love it when NFL.com does the work for me...

 

"The Bengals took a nose-dive last season across the board under Zampese, including sinking from seventh to 24th in points per game from 2015 to 2016. After generating an embarrassing nine total points, 258.0 yards per game, 79 rushing YPG, with four sacks per game in two losses to open the 2017 season, Lewis decided to make a change."

 

Again, the  team  let their #2 and #3 receiver go and only had Tyler Eifert start 2 games last year.  Dropping in points per game should not have come as a surprise to anyone regardless of how good the OC called plays.   In fact they were 11th in yards per game despite losing 3 offensive starters but couldn't get the ball into the endzone with only AJ Green as a legitimate target.

 

What should be a surprise is how horrible they started this season.  No wait, that shouldn't be a surprise.  I mean when you let quality offensive starters leave your team and replace them with 2nd year busts, cast offs and journeymen what could possibly go wrong?   

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