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Duluoz

LSU's 4 and 5 Receiver Offensive Sets

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The past couple weeks I've been treating myself to all the Joe Burrow highlights available on YouTube, and couldn't help but noticing how unique LSU's offense is. OC Steve Ensminger and Joe Brady were like mad scientists with all the outside the box schemes, sets and creativity all of which makes me wonder:

 

1) Did Joe Burrow look so good just because of Steve Ensminger's high-powered offense ?

2) Can Cincy replicate the LSU offensive schemes?

3) Should Cincy consider hiring  Steve Ensminger as its OC ?

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1. No.

2. Yes.

3. No.

 

LSU didn't do anything with its sets the Bengals don't already do. They were a base 11 offense (1 RB and 1 TE) same as the Bengals like to run under ZT and Callahan.  The so-called 4 and 5 receiver sets you are noticing are only that way because you are seeing the TE (Moss or Sullivan last year) and RB (Edwards-Hellaire) as a part of those 4 and 5 receiver looks (splitting helaire out and putting five pass catching options into the route trees on some plays). LSU was NOT a run and shoot 4 or 5 WR offense - so the adjustment you are worried about (like Klingler coming from the Houston Cougars' run and shoot) does not apply.

 

Burrow's accuracy has been WELL documented by PFF and pretty much every draft analyst and scout. It's ridiculous how pinpoint he is. It's not like his receivers were running wide the fuck open all the time - or that he had a clean pocket all the time. Neither are true. He was next level at understanding coverages and making the correct decisions on where to go with ball and where to put it and then could mostly put it where he wanted. All of that translates to the NFL and is not scheme specific.  Further, because the Bengals also run 11 personnel the keys and reads he is already used to should be easily built upon. 

 

The alleged brain power behind LSU's year was Joe Brady - who has been hired in Carolina. Not sure I have heard anyone ask that Ensminger make the leap - he's a college lifer and into his 60s now, I think . Not the usual profile for someone to jump to leading an NFL offense. I trust Callahan, myself. 

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33 minutes ago, membengal said:

1. No.

2. Yes.

3. No.

 

LSU didn't do anything with its sets the Bengals don't already do. They were a base 11 offense (1 RB and 1 TE) same as the Bengals like to run under ZT and Callahan.  The so-called 4 and 5 receiver sets you are noticing are only that way because you are seeing the TE (Moss or Sullivan last year) and RB (Edwards-Hellaire) as a part of those 4 and 5 receiver looks (splitting helaire out and putting five pass catching options into the route trees on some plays). LSU was NOT a run and shoot 4 or 5 WR offense - so the adjustment you are worried about (like Klingler coming from the Houston Cougars' run and shoot) does not apply.

 

Burrow's accuracy has been WELL documented by PFF and pretty much every draft analyst and scout. It's ridiculous how pinpoint he is. It's not like his receivers were running wide the fuck open all the time - or that he had a clean pocket all the time. Neither are true. He was next level at understanding coverages and making the correct decisions on where to go with ball and where to put it and then could mostly put it where he wanted. All of that translates to the NFL and is not scheme specific.  Further, because the Bengals also run 11 personnel the keys and reads he is already used to should be easily built upon. 

 

The alleged brain power behind LSU's year was Joe Brady - who has been hired in Carolina. Not sure I have heard anyone ask that Ensminger make the leap - he's a college lifer and into his 60s now, I think . Not the usual profile for someone to jump to leading an NFL offense. I trust Callahan, myself. 

 

With you on this except for the bolded.  This is the same OC that forgot Mixon was on the team until sometime in November.

 

I do like that he said RT is an open competition, though I'm not sure why that doesn't apply to the rest of the OL, or the entire team.  IMHO it's not something that should even need saying.  Of course it's an open competition, what else would starting spots be based on?

 

 

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34 minutes ago, membengal said:

1. No.

2. Yes.

3. No.

 

LSU didn't do anything with its sets the Bengals don't already do. They were a base 11 offense (1 RB and 1 TE) same as the Bengals like to run under ZT and Callahan.  The so-called 4 and 5 receiver sets you are noticing are only that way because you are seeing the TE (Moss or Sullivan last year) and RB (Edwards-Hellaire) as a part of those 4 and 5 receiver looks (splitting helaire out and putting five pass catching options into the route trees on some plays). LSU was NOT a run and shoot 4 or 5 WR offense - so the adjustment you are worried about (like Klingler coming from the Houston Cougars' run and shoot) does not apply.

 

Burrow's accuracy has been WELL documented by PFF and pretty much every draft analyst and scout. It's ridiculous how pinpoint he is. It's not like his receivers were running wide the fuck open all the time - or that he had a clean pocket all the time. Neither are true. He was next level at understanding coverages and making the correct decisions on where to go with ball and where to put it and then could mostly put it where he wanted. All of that translates to the NFL and is not scheme specific.  Further, because the Bengals also run 11 personnel the keys and reads he is already used to should be easily built upon. 

 

The alleged brain power behind LSU's year was Joe Brady - who has been hired in Carolina. Not sure I have heard anyone ask that Ensminger make the leap - he's a college lifer and into his 60s now, I think . Not the usual profile for someone to jump to leading an NFL offense. I trust Callahan, myself. 

Great points. I wouldn't say I'm  necessarily "worried" that Burrow is going to be another Klingler, but the thought has passed through my mind, for obvious reasons.  Not sure I accept, or even understand, your explanation that "LSU was NOT a run and shoot 4 or 5 WR offense - so the adjustment you are worried about (like Klingler coming from the Houston Cougars' run and shoot) does not apply."  Regardless of what name you give it, LSU flooded the field with receivers, much like Houston did, just not exactly.

 

And yes, Burrow is ridiculously accurate,  but his receivers were also extremely talented, at least a couple of them were. Ja'marr Chase will likely be the first WR taken in the 2021 Draft and ran routes and made catches that Joe Burrow's going to miss. AJ and Tyler are talented in their own rights, but Ja'marr and JB seemed to have a magical chemistry.

 

For the record, I think Joe Burrow's going to make us forget Boomer Esiason and Kenny Anderson as he re-writes the Bengals QB record book, but we've got months to kill before we get to enjoy watching him in a Cincy uni, so let's kick around all the "what ifs" for a while.

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1 hour ago, Duluoz said:

 

And yes, Burrow is ridiculously accurate,  but his receivers were also extremely talented, at least a couple of them were. Ja'marr Chase will likely be the first WR taken in the 2021 Draft and ran routes and made catches that Joe Burrow's going to miss. AJ and Tyler are talented in their own rights, but Ja'marr and JB seemed to have a magical chemistry.

 

On that note, I question AJ's motivation playing under the franchise tag.  Sure he's a pro and I think he'll want to show he's still got it, but I also don't expect him to do things like stick around after hours working with Joe.  TBH I'm getting the impression AJ is ready to move on.   I expect Burrow to be harassed quite a bit behind this OL & it would be nice for him to have that go-to guy dialed in.  Sorry to say I don't think that's AJ.

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Ensminger has been at LSU for several years when their offense was stone age. It was adding Brady last year and Burrow stepping up that made it so effective. 

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50 minutes ago, T-Dub said:

 

On that note, I question AJ's motivation playing under the franchise tag.  Sure he's a pro and I think he'll want to show he's still got it, but I also don't expect him to do things like stick around after hours working with Joe.  TBH I'm getting the impression AJ is ready to move on.   I expect Burrow to be harassed quite a bit behind this OL & it would be nice for him to have that go-to guy dialed in.  Sorry to say I don't think that's AJ.

If you are correct, let's hope Tee comes along quickly like AJ did. I am aware of the disparity of draft position between the two, but at 33OA Tee is a borderline first round talent.

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43 minutes ago, Griever said:

If you are correct, let's hope Tee comes along quickly like AJ did. I am aware of the disparity of draft position between the two, but at 33OA Tee is a borderline first round talent.

 

I don't put much stock in draft position anyway but I do hope he plays well given some of the other options we passed on there.  

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4 hours ago, Duluoz said:

Great points. I wouldn't say I'm  necessarily "worried" that Burrow is going to be another Klingler, but the thought has passed through my mind, for obvious reasons.  Not sure I accept, or even understand, your explanation that "LSU was NOT a run and shoot 4 or 5 WR offense - so the adjustment you are worried about (like Klingler coming from the Houston Cougars' run and shoot) does not apply."  Regardless of what name you give it, LSU flooded the field with receivers, much like Houston did, just not exactly.

You are misunderstanding what you are watching. Run and shoot concepts with four or five wides is a different style of offense than what LSU ran - and its a difference that matters with respect your stated concern.

 

LSU’s primary offensive sets came to them last year through Brady who brought them from the Saints.  It is a 3 WR , 1 RB, 1 TE offense. That is the same 11 personnel that the Bengals have as their base offensive set.

 

The bengals could have put Mixon into routes more (or Gio) and let the TE out too and had five receivers in any given route if they so choose - just like LSU did. There’s no magic there and nothing different. It’s up to ZT, Callahan, turner and Burrow as to how comfortable he will be behind this line in not holding a RB or TE back for extra protection. Burrow is really adept at identifying the free rusher , and the bengals have already asked Burrow to given them his ten favorite plays from last year, so hopefully they have more plays with Mixon/Gio or Uzomah/sample out in routes along with the three wides - but there is literally nothing stopping them from doing what LSU was doing except themselves. There’s nothing that has to change from the pro style offense (saints based) that burrow is already used to.

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3 hours ago, T-Dub said:

 

On that note, I question AJ's motivation playing under the franchise tag.  Sure he's a pro and I think he'll want to show he's still got it, but I also don't expect him to do things like stick around after hours working with Joe.  TBH I'm getting the impression AJ is ready to move on.   I expect Burrow to be harassed quite a bit behind this OL & it would be nice for him to have that go-to guy dialed in.  Sorry to say I don't think that's AJ.

I can totally understand this opinion but I think it'll motivate him to do just the opposite. This guy clearly wants another big pay day. Even if he doesn't want it from us, I think he's going to be highly motivated to prove to everyone he's still a top receiver in this league so he gets that from whomever. I think he's going to be in the best shape he's been in his life and come out extremely fired up and ready to go. Time will tell I suppose.

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1 hour ago, membengal said:

You are misunderstanding what you are watching. Run and shoot concepts with four or five wides is a different style of offense than what LSU ran - and its a difference that matters with respect your stated concern.

 

LSU’s primary offensive sets came to them last year through Brady who brought them from the Saints.  It is a 3 WR , 1 RB, 1 TE offense. That is the same 11 personnel that the Bengals have as their base offensive set.

 

The bengals could have put Mixon into routes more (or Gio) and let the TE out too and had five receivers in any given route if they so choose - just like LSU did. There’s no magic there and nothing different. It’s up to ZT, Callahan, turner and Burrow as to how comfortable he will be behind this line in not holding a RB or TE back for extra protection. Burrow is really adept at identifying the free rusher , and the bengals have already asked Burrow to given them his ten favorite plays from last year, so hopefully they have more plays with Mixon/Gio or Uzomah/sample out in routes along with the three wides - but there is literally nothing stopping them from doing what LSU was doing except themselves. There’s nothing that has to change from the pro style offense (saints based) that burrow is already used to.

I'll be the first to admit I watch NFL football as an unsophisticated, casual fan.  To anyone who has ever played football, at any level, and been properly coached, my understanding of what I see taking place on the field would be that of a 6th or 7th grader...think of Trump's understanding of foreign affairs and you'll get what I mean.

 

So...on that note, I'll take your word that confusing David Klingler's Houston Run & Shoot offense with Joe Burrow's offense at LSU is foolish, and will only lead to fears that have no basis. But I don't know how often I've noticed the Bengals lining up 5 WRs on any given play, a setup LSU seems to do on a regular basis....I'm sure someone will come back with "The Bengals line up 5 WRs on every 3rd or 4th and long, dummy..."

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LSU didn’t line up 5 WRs. They had 5 guys in routes but they were not all WRs.  What you are describing is what Texas Tech was running under Kingsbury (and why Mahomes needed a year to learn an nfl

style offense) - but LSU was not that kind of offense. They did their damage out of 11 personnel - same type set that is the bengals bread and butter. If the bengals don’t deploy their personnel in a way that maximizes what burrow does well, that’s on them.

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I like AJ Green just like everyone else.  I hope he is back to 85%-90%  of his prime.  But given his age, his injury history and the fact he hasn't played in 1 1/2 years I would be leery of offering a long term deal for him especially if he is wanting a lot of up front guaranteed money.  I have no problem of giving him a pro bowl receiver salary if he is back but it has to be structured in a way the Bengals can walk away from it if they want.

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3 hours ago, membengal said:

LSU didn’t line up 5 WRs. They had 5 guys in routes but they were not all WRs.  What you are describing is what Texas Tech was running under Kingsbury (and why Mahomes needed a year to learn an nfl

style offense) - but LSU was not that kind of offense. They did their damage out of 11 personnel - same type set that is the bengals bread and butter. If the bengals don’t deploy their personnel in a way that maximizes what burrow does well, that’s on them.

The Bengals can only do what the AVAILABLE personnel for each game allows them. 

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5 hours ago, SF2 said:

The Bengals can only do what the AVAILABLE personnel for each game allows them. 

This

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11 hours ago, westside bengal said:

I like AJ Green just like everyone else.  I hope he is back to 85%-90%  of his prime.  But given his age, his injury history and the fact he hasn't played in 1 1/2 years I would be leery of offering a long term deal for him especially if he is wanting a lot of up front guaranteed money.  I have no problem of giving him a pro bowl receiver salary if he is back but it has to be structured in a way the Bengals can walk away from it if they want.

 

I would guess that these sort of contract details are why they ended up having to tag him.

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21 hours ago, membengal said:

LSU didn’t line up 5 WRs. They had 5 guys in routes but they were not all WRs.  What you are describing is what Texas Tech was running under Kingsbury (and why Mahomes needed a year to learn an nfl

style offense) - but LSU was not that kind of offense. They did their damage out of 11 personnel - same type set that is the bengals bread and butter. If the bengals don’t deploy their personnel in a way that maximizes what burrow does well, that’s on them.

One of the LSU replays I was watching recently (Florida or Auburn) one of the TV guys kept harping about the uniqueness of their 5 receiver sets, which is what prompted this post.

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4 hours ago, Duluoz said:

One of the LSU replays I was watching recently (Florida or Auburn) one of the TV guys kept harping about the uniqueness of their 5 receiver sets, which is what prompted this post.

They didn't know how to describe what they were seeing. 

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2 hours ago, membengal said:

They didn't know how to describe what they were seeing. 

Criminy...these guys make huge salaries to tell us dopes what we're seeing on the field, with all the technical Xs and Os, and you're saying they're incompetent? Might as well watch with the volume off then.

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Goodberry before his stepping away from the Locked On pod made the same point here:

 

 

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7 hours ago, membengal said:

Goodberry before his stepping away from the Locked On pod made the same point here:

 

 

 

I really hope he's wrong about that. Our OL needs all the help it can get & while Mixon is an ok receiver, taking him out of the backfield is not playing to his strengths.

 

Neither of our TE's have looked like anything to base an offense around, either.

 

I saw enough Square Peg game planning last year. Burrow should be adapting to what the team does well, not the other way around.  That shouldn't be difficult for someone so perfect in every way.

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Disagree.  His processing and decision making are elite. Five in pattern accentuates that, and makes the defense show its hand. On top of that , he’s able to slide and move in and out of the pocket to deal with pressure and still make elite accurate throws. That pops on the film and is something that Dalton was terrible at. So if he needs to buy an extra second or make a rusher miss, he can. Remember, he faced the same percentage of pressure last year that dalton did (29%).

 

also, I’ve heard several coaches on pod interviews this offseason say that one on one blocking is in some instances easier because less chance of communication errors.

 

they won’t be five into the pattern all the time, but I expect and hope for WAY more of it then with dalton who was a panicky mess when his first read wasn’t open.

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