Props to Zac

[|BlackJesus|]

2 hours ago, High School Harry said:

If this was one of The Chosen franchises, Zac's Coach if the Year trophy would already have the plaque engraved

 

If the Bengals win out, I think he would win Coach of the Year.

 

But they likely have to do so to guarantee it.

[dex]

18 hours ago, Jamie_B said:

If we get in the playoffs and win a game or two Zack deserves coach of the year votes. He has not made Browning run the Burrow offense, he has tailored it (no pun intended) to what Browning does best. 

 

That's the sign of a good coach.

Great new Paul Dehner article analyzing the Jake Browning led offense. One excerpt:

 

1. Taylor is not running the ball more. All those carries filling the box score have come in putting away wins and goal-line situations. When extracting to true neutral downs, you can see the propensity to pass dipped only marginally.

2. The difference is rooted in how they are executing the offense. The shift from shotgun to under center has been seismic. With a fully healthy Burrow from Week 5 to Week 11, they were in shotgun 88 percent of the time. With Browning, that’s changed to right at the league average. They leaned even further into it against Indianapolis at only 57 percent shot

3. With the increase of under-center has come the increase of play-action. The Bengals used 14 percent more play action against Indianapolis than they did with a healthy Burrow.

All these factors have led to a dramatic rise in explosive plays which have been the overriding difference in the offense. The actual run production has stayed at a fairly consistent level on neutral downs.

[Jamie_B]

2 minutes ago, dex said:

Great new Paul Dehner article analyzing the Jake Browning led offense. One excerpt:

 

1. Taylor is not running the ball more. All those carries filling the box score have come in putting away wins and goal-line situations. When extracting to true neutral downs, you can see the propensity to pass dipped only marginally.

2. The difference is rooted in how they are executing the offense. The shift from shotgun to under center has been seismic. With a fully healthy Burrow from Week 5 to Week 11, they were in shotgun 88 percent of the time. With Browning, that’s changed to right at the league average. They leaned even further into it against Indianapolis at only 57 percent shot

3. With the increase of under-center has come the increase of play-action. The Bengals used 14 percent more play action against Indianapolis than they did with a healthy Burrow.

All these factors have led to a dramatic rise in explosive plays which have been the overriding difference in the offense. The actual run production has stayed at a fairly consistent level on neutral downs.

 

This is exactly why Burrow needs to get a full camp and preseason to work on being under center more.

[Cricket]

19 hours ago, Jamie_B said:

…He [Taylor] has not made Browning run the Burrow offense, he has tailored it (no pun intended) to what Browning does best. 

Unfortunately, he didn’t figure that out until AFTER the game against Pissturd.  
 

🦗

[Jamie_B]

9 minutes ago, Cricket said:

Unfortunately, he didn’t figure that out until AFTER the game against Pissturd.  
 

🦗

 

Yeah, hopefully we can make up for it in 2 weeks.

[dex]

1 minute ago, Jamie_B said:

 

Yeah, hopefully we can make up for it in 2 weeks.

Another thing that the Dehner article points out is that, while Browning has posted mind-boggling numbers when not under pressure, his stats have been very poor when he is pressured. Obviously all QBs are better when not being pressured, it's just that Browning's splits (small sample size, I know) have been far wider than the average NFL QB. Like night-and-day different. 

 

This becomes important since the defenses Browning faces going forward do tremendous jobs of forcing pressure. Can the OL and TEs continue to keep a clean pocket against stronger defenses? That factor will be huge on Saturday and going forward.

[Jamie_B]

2 minutes ago, dex said:

Another thing that the Dehner article points out is that, while Browning has posted mind-boggling numbers when not under pressure, his stats have been very poor when he is pressured. Obviously all QBs are better when not being pressured, it's just that Browning's splits (small sample size, I know) have been far wider than the average NFL QB. Like night-and-day different. 

 

This becomes important since the defenses Browning faces going forward do tremendous jobs of forcing pressure. Can the OL and TEs continue to keep a clean pocket against stronger defenses? That factor will be huge on Saturday and going forward.

 

 

IIRC when not under pressure Burrow had stats in almost every category at the #1 or #2 spot.

 

This is exactly why I wanted to get in the top 10 and get a RT of the future that could slide into LT when OBJ is gone. Then get a good guard to replace Volson in round 2.

 

This team would be almost unbeatable if we could keep Joe upright and if we could run the ball like we currently are. All of that comes down to getting better on the Oline.

[Jamie_B]

By the way the article @dex referred to

 

Bengals offensive rebirth: What changed, what hasn’t, what’s next - The Athletic

 

This can not be understated. 

 

“The more you can do, the more looks you present to the defense and the more that all those looks have multiple things you can run out of those formations or those sets, I think it makes it difficult,” Browning said of increased usage under center.

[Jamie_B]

And this....

 

Gaining a lift from less true pass sets and exposures to empty, protection shined. They only allowed three pressures against the Colts, according to PFF, a season low. They also snapped a 42-game streak of allowing at least one sack.

[HavePityPlease]

1 hour ago, dex said:

Another thing that the Dehner article points out is that, while Browning has posted mind-boggling numbers when not under pressure, his stats have been very poor when he is pressured. Obviously all QBs are better when not being pressured, it's just that Browning's splits (small sample size, I know) have been far wider than the average NFL QB. Like night-and-day different. 

 

This becomes important since the defenses Browning faces going forward do tremendous jobs of forcing pressure. Can the OL and TEs continue to keep a clean pocket against stronger defenses? That factor will be huge on Saturday and going forward.

 

I assume Dehner's stats take in all the snaps Browning has taken?  I only say this because against the Stealers (and the fill-in against the Ravens) he was clearly hampered by still feeling out the offense and the pressure was coming from everywhere in both games - he was holding the ball in those situations to avoid bigger problems.  In the last two he's both been pressured less *and* when he's had blitzers basically right inside his facemask he's completed tough passes several times.  I bet we see this stat get better in the next games as long as they stick to these overall play style choices.

 

I was especially impressed with his pass to Boyd somewhere near our 5 yard line in this last game... it was late in the progression and some Colt LB was coming at him untouched and full speed and Browning waited until the last possible second.  It was really something.  Compare that to someone like a Zach Wilson who would have chucked-and-ducked (or just ducked) for sure.

[T-Dub]

I would give a lot more credit to Zac if it didn't take Burrow getting pummeled to IR again and the necessity of running the offense with a backup QB for him to make these changes.

 

I'm certainly glad he did, but meanwhile our MVP is on the sideline wearing a cast.

[Jamie_B]

13 minutes ago, T-Dub said:

I would give a lot more credit to Zac if it didn't take Burrow getting pummeled to IR again and the necessity of running the offense with a backup QB for him to make these changes.

 

I'm certainly glad he did, but meanwhile our MVP is on the sideline wearing a cast.

 

 

I think the changes might have happened at least to some degree with Joe's comfort level doing them, if he had gotten a training camp and preseason.

 

That's the time when you get the reps to install new things, and a not just week to week changes, but large system changes. You saw them doing some of the under center stuff and play action stuff with Joe before he got the calve injury. I think the injury prevented us from doing that and forced us into running largely the same offense as last year.

 

Clearly we are seeing how well the Oline has been playing, at least so far, from having a QB under center, and how that has protected Browning and how it has opened up the running game. If we can get that with Joe, and get Joe comfortable playing that way, I really believe this O would be the top O in the league.

 

Lets hope Joe can FINALLY get a training camp in what will be his 5th year, this offseason.

[dex]

13 minutes ago, Jamie_B said:

 

 

Lets hope Joe can FINALLY get a training camp in what will be his 5th year, this offseason.

This cannot be overstated enough imo. Not enough people seem to reference it (both here and around the NFL in general) when evaluating Burrow's year long performance, the Bengals offensive coaches, the entire organization, etc. I think it is because Burrow has taken every opening day start in those 4 seasons, but the lack of a preseason has hurt hampered both his performance and the way the Bengals have called plays at the outset of the year.

 

Even when Burrow had only played 2 seasons in the NFL, he was already the only starting QB in the league not to have a normal offseason. Now this has gone for 2 additional seasons to the point where it's beyond ridiculous. His August luck has been abysmal. Take August of 2022 for example. He suffered a ruptured appendix right at the start of training camp, then lost at least 20 pounds of good weight during his recovery. The Bengals had 90 players in camp...which was the one player the Bengals coaches wanted this to happen to the least? Burrow. There were 90 players on 32 NFL teams, almost 300 players. Which was the only rostered player on a NFL roster to suffer a ruptured appendix in training camp?...you know who.

 

Just one fucking preseason, can things finally break Joe Burrow's way? Just want him to take every healthy rep in training camp. Is that too much to ask? It's starting to feel like it is...

[T-Dub]

30 minutes ago, Jamie_B said:

 

 

I think the changes might have happened at least to some degree with Joe's comfort level doing them, if he had gotten a training camp and preseason.

 

That's the time when you get the reps to install new things, and a not just week to week changes, but large system changes. You saw them doing some of the under center stuff and play action stuff with Joe before he got the calve injury. I think the injury prevented us from doing that and forced us into running largely the same offense as last year.

 

Clearly we are seeing how well the Oline has been playing, at least so far, from having a QB under center, and how that has protected Browning and how it has opened up the running game. If we can get that with Joe, and get Joe comfortable playing that way, I really believe this O would be the top O in the league.

 

Lets hope Joe can FINALLY get a training camp in what will be his 5th year, this offseason.

 

I do wonder how much is our OL "improving" vs the defense not knowing it's a pass play 99/100 times.  It's a pretty big advantage when pass rushers don't have to defend against the run at all.

 

 

[Shebengal]

2 minutes ago, dex said:

Just one fucking preseason, can things finally break Joe Burrow's way? Just want him to take every healthy rep in training camp. Is that too much to ask? It's starting to feel like it is...

So next season, let's not jinx him by saying stuff like, "Finally! Burrow will have a normal preseason."

 

Just sayin'...

[Jamie_B]

14 minutes ago, T-Dub said:

 

I do wonder how much is our OL "improving" vs the defense not knowing it's a pass play 99/100 times.  It's a pretty big advantage when pass rushers don't have to defend against the run at all.

 

 

 

Yup. When you get to hide the ball from running under center or can do play action pass it gives you that extra half second that makes a huge difference 

[T-Dub]

53 minutes ago, Jamie_B said:

 

Yup. When you get to hide the ball from running under center or can do play action pass it gives you that extra half second that makes a huge difference 

 

Even beyond that first step it puts some doubt in the mind of the defense.  They can't just tee off on your QB, they have to read & react.

[Jamie_B]

6 minutes ago, T-Dub said:

 

Even beyond that first step it puts some doubt in the mind of the defense.  They can't just tee off on your QB, they have to read & react.

 

 

Yup

[claptonrocks]

1 hour ago, T-Dub said:

 

I do wonder how much is our OL "improving" vs the defense not knowing it's a pass play 99/100 times.  It's a pretty big advantage when pass rushers don't have to defend against the run at all.

 

 

This...

So true.

Let the oline pound forward instead of their heels.

[dex]

1 hour ago, T-Dub said:

 

I do wonder how much is our OL "improving" vs the defense not knowing it's a pass play 99/100 times.  It's a pretty big advantage when pass rushers don't have to defend against the run at all.

 

 

Not sure why the play action worked so well against the Colts since the Bengals weren't getting many yards per carry. They only ran the ball well against one team the Jags, which might mean it was more just Jacksonville ineptitude than anything else. I would make the Bengals prove they could run the ball more effectively more often than that before I would bite on a play fake. Minnesota has been playing shockingly good defense this year. Let's see if they bite on play action.

[sparky151]

I'm not sure Burrow would want to run this offense. He clearly prefers to play from the shotgun and likes going empty. He values having more time to look over the defense for an open receiver vs carrying out fakes. He can also set and get rid of the ball faster from the gun than from under center. Bengals call the 2nd highest % of passes in the league.

[HavePityPlease]

23 minutes ago, sparky151 said:

I'm not sure Burrow would want to run this offense. He clearly prefers to play from the shotgun and likes going empty. He values having more time to look over the defense for an open receiver vs carrying out fakes. He can also set and get rid of the ball faster from the gun than from under center. Bengals call the 2nd highest % of passes in the league.

 

This is true and has been stated by Joe more than once.  I think Jaime is spot on, though, that this has to change.  It only depends on whether you believe Joe was already open to it (from at least this preseason), or he's been stubbornly insisting they DON'T do it up to now, and will continue to do so.  I've been thinking the past two games as they show Joe on the sideline, "I sure hope he sees how easy it is to move the ball if you just mix up the formations and run some play action...".

We will know pretty quickly next season re: Joe and his willingness to go under center.  I don't think it's a total coincidence that Joe has been injured the past two preseasons and seemingly in the bodily areas he was intensely working on to "improve" (i.e. in 2022:  arm strength/power = core -> burst appendix; 2023: running/scrambling = legs -> torn calf).  Time to toss the body sculpting agenda and learn some game-winning football techniques.

[HavePityPlease]

3 hours ago, Jamie_B said:

 

Yup. When you get to hide the ball from running under center or can do play action pass it gives you that extra half second that makes a huge difference 

 

2 hours ago, T-Dub said:

 

Even beyond that first step it puts some doubt in the mind of the defense.  They can't just tee off on your QB, they have to read & react.

 

To add to that, and I think it's just an extension of what you guys are saying - being under center changes attack angle for DE's.  They don't know what drop you're going to use on a pass so they can't just pick a technique and sprint, as T-Dub said they have to read & react, and they have run responsibility to contain as well.  Not only that, we've seen some (very) effective pass protections in this scheme where Browning drops back and his blind-side is completely walled off and he can just read what he sees.

[Jamie_B]

They were practicing it with him before the calve injury so I think he's willing 

[dex]

The best case is for the Bengals & Burrow to be multiple when it comes to shotgun and under center. Certainly okay for the Bengals to go empty sometimes with Burrow, depending on the circumstances. Okay go under center some too. Make defenses have to prepare for anything and everything.