Marvin Lewis should be fired

[Actium]

[quote name='ThurmanMunster' post='610896' date='Dec 17 2007, 06:40 PM']well no shit, but it hasnt been on the active roster for most of this season.[/quote]

disagree that the ones on the injured list are what's keeping us back

we should be able to win with the talent in place. and it also concerns me that there are so many injuries...the conditioning must be atrocious. it's always something with Marvin...I'm done giving him pass after pass. Does that change anything with him...no. But I am not going to regard him as a tragic genius

[globetrotter]

[quote name='cwing' post='610909' date='Dec 17 2007, 08:11 PM']Cowher was nearly fired after a few rocky years as he stuck with Kordell. they stuck wiht him and he won a SB.
Schottenheimer can not win the big game and has been fired by how many teams????????? Cleveland, KC, SD, others?
Belicheck was once the head coach at Cleveland --- you think they are happy they fired him.
Fisher was on the hot seat. Another losing season and he is gone ------- they go to the SB.
Dungy fired at TB. Wins SB in Indy.
Chucky forced out in Oakland, wins SB in TB.

The NFL is a rocky road with many ups and downs -------- Marvin may or may not recover from this. I believe he will. If they maintain the key players and get 75% of those guys back healthy, add one or two guys through the draft or through FA this team will be in the playoffs and jsut may play inot late jan early Feb next season.

If we lose key guys and don't get the right ones back --------- maybe it dooms Marvin. Only time will tell.[/quote]

I think the injury situation is absolutely overblown. On Defense LB was tough but how does LB make us get more sacks from the DL? Although Geathers could have had more time there. And we got ourselves into the LB situation. We had Earl Everett, Matt Muncy and Edge Hartwell all camp and then cut them to make way for Marshall, Dhani Jones and Schlegal. Our injuries were to Ahmad Brooks who was a huge Question mark and who knows if Lando Carlinebackeran is not better regardless, Jeanty who is good but not great. The tackles on offense were problematic but we got ourselves into that situation as well by not resigning Steinbach and not going after veteran backups.

[Le Tigre]

[quote name='cwing' post='610909' date='Dec 17 2007, 08:11 PM']Cowher was nearly fired after a few rocky years as he stuck with Kordell. they stuck wiht him and he won a SB.
Schottenheimer can not win the big game and has been fired by how many teams????????? Cleveland, KC, SD, others?
Belicheck was once the head coach at Cleveland --- you think they are happy they fired him.
Fisher was on the hot seat. Another losing season and he is gone ------- they go to the SB.
Dungy fired at TB. Wins SB in Indy.
Chucky forced out in Oakland, wins SB in TB.

The NFL is a rocky road with many ups and downs -------- Marvin may or may not recover from this. I believe he will. If they maintain the key players and get 75% of those guys back healthy, add one or two guys through the draft or through FA this team will be in the playoffs and jsut may play inot late jan early Feb next season.

If we lose key guys and don't get the right ones back --------- maybe it dooms Marvin. Only time will tell.[/quote]

Take a look at Romeo. He was a bad Game #2 against us in Cleveland from the abyss. They hang 51 on us...a fortunate insertion of Derick Anderson...clicking offensive line...solid emergence of Edwards/Jurevicious/Soldja...rebound of Jamal...opportunistic but not spectacular defense...off the page special teams...and voila: playoffs.

Is Romeo any smarter than he was a year ago? Or even since the first game of the season? And...he made no changes in his staff other than the DC.

Word up: "many ups and downs".

ML should unload Chucky and all of his underlings other than Croyle. I will back ML for another year...as this one in no way shape or form, could ever happen again.

[STRAYCAT]

If he is in the same position this time next year....sorry he will be gone. But if we end up 9-7 we will drink the koolaid again.

[|OneHeartBeat|]

[quote name='Le Tigre' post='610919' date='Dec 17 2007, 08:43 PM']Take a look at Romeo. He was a bad Game #2 against us in Cleveland from the abyss. They hang 51 on us...a fortunate insertion of Derick Anderson...clicking offensive line...solid emergence of Edwards/Jurevicious/Soldja...rebound of Jamal...opportunistic but not spectacular defense...off the page special teams...and voila: playoffs.

Is Romeo any smarter than he was a year ago? Or even since the first game of the season? And...he made no changes in his staff other than the DC.

Word up: "many ups and downs".

ML should unload Chucky and all of his underlings other than Croyle. I will back ML for another year...as this one in no way shape or form, could ever happen again.[/quote]

The stains success is b/c of what they did this past offseason. They had a terrible line and went out and got Steiney in free agency, draftted Thomas, had no running game so they brought in Jamal. Thats a couple of high profile FA's that went to a bad team and its made a huge difference for them this year.

[Marvin]

I applaud the stalwarts that back marvin, true fans indeed. As many have indicated though there are some serious leadership issues this team is facing. The injuries have killed this team, but that excuse only goes so far. Why can't the players that have been healthy enough to play perform at even a reasonably respectable level, especially on defense. Missed assignments, back peddaling in pass coverage and as the ball carrier approaches, ineffective blitzing, virtually no pressure on the opposing qb, the laundry list could go on but the downfalls have certainly been brought to light around here (as if there not obvious to any self respecting football fan). The offense does not get a pass either. Chad Johnson and Carson Palmer have not been hurt this year and yet for the majority of the games they have not been "on the same page". I don't like that our head coach seems unwilling to take responsibility for anything, that is not how a leader behaves, is it any wonder that this team implodes at the most critical moments, when the general is condescending, unfallible and generally disagreeable. Staying with rudi, hurt or not, has been a mistake, not getting through to d-jax, or chad points to a lack of respect for the head coach. It doesn't look like marvin is ok with whats going on but don't those bags under his eyes lead you to believe that it has gotten out of his control?

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='globetrotter' post='610917' date='Dec 17 2007, 08:35 PM']I think the injury situation is absolutely overblown. On Defense LB was tough but how does LB make us get more sacks from the DL? Although Geathers could have had more time there. And we got ourselves into the LB situation. We had Earl Everett, Matt Muncy and Edge Hartwell all camp and then cut them to make way for Marshall, Dhani Jones and Schlegal. Our injuries were to Ahmad Brooks who was a huge Question mark and who knows if Lando Carlinebackeran is not better regardless, Jeanty who is good but not great. The tackles on offense were problematic but we got ourselves into that situation as well by not resigning Steinbach and not going after veteran backups.[/quote]


It doesnt make more sacks from the DL, however with Brooks ability to be disruptive, that [i]might[/i] increase Geathers, he did have that good game against Bmore, but who knows if it was because Bmore sucks this year or if it was because Brooks' disruption allowed for Geathers to run free. I will say i wish we had Pollack or a Pollack type, in Marvin's D the SAM backer is huge for putting his arm down to rush the passer, that has been sorely missed, actually we never really have had that.

[bengals8580]

how has he done at the end of the year, when everything is on the line? terrible
his first year, lost to cleveland at home to get us into the playoffs. 2nd year, lost at home to buffalo forcing another 8-8 season. The next, lost at home to buffalo again which would of given us a 1st round bye. Lost the last 3 games, including at home against pitt to make the playoffs.

[oldschooler]

[quote name='bengals8580' post='611258' date='Dec 18 2007, 05:54 PM']how has he done at the end of the year, when everything is on the line? terrible
his first year, lost to cleveland at home to get us into the playoffs. 2nd year, lost at home to buffalo forcing another 8-8 season. The next, lost at home to buffalo again which would of given us a 1st round bye. Lost the last 3 games, including at home against pitt to make the playoffs.[/quote]

First off, the 2004 season, when they lost to Buffalo,
it was the game after they lost Carson and Kitna started.
And the Bengals won their last 2 games to finish 8-8.

Against the Bills in 2005, I`m sure Marvin wanted
Carson to throw 2 INTs, one that was a pick 6
when they down by 3 points, and were trying to
tie or take the lead.

And anyway, Marvin didn`t miss a kick, snap or tackle
in any of those last 3 games last season.

It`s a stupid arguement, really.

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='bengals8580' post='611258' date='Dec 18 2007, 06:54 PM']how has he done at the end of the year, when everything is on the line? terrible
his first year, lost to cleveland at home to get us into the playoffs. 2nd year, lost at home to buffalo forcing another 8-8 season. The next, lost at home to buffalo again which would of given us a 1st round bye. Lost the last 3 games, including at home against pitt to make the playoffs.[/quote]


can't lay everything on the coach. Players are the ones that make the mistakes that cost us those games. Seems to me the team was coached well enough last year, but special teams blew the last 2 games.

[BengalsOwn]

[quote name='oldschooler' post='611262' date='Dec 18 2007, 07:07 PM']First off, the 2004 season, when they lost to Buffalo,
it was the game after they lost Carson and Kitna started.
And the Bengals won their last 2 games to finish 8-8.

Against the Bills in 2005, I`m sure Marvin wanted
Carson to throw 2 INTs, one that was a pick 6
when they down by 3 points, and were trying to
tie or take the lead.

And anyway, Marvin didn`t miss a kick, snap or tackle
in any of those last 3 games last season.

It`s a stupid arguement, really.[/quote]

Talk about a stupid ass argument.

I'm sure Shula didn't want his players to suck ass, as well as Lebeau. Doesn't mean they deserved to keep their jobs.

[oldschooler]

[quote name='BengalsOwn' post='611266' date='Dec 18 2007, 06:13 PM']Talk about a stupid ass argument.

I'm sure Shula didn't want his players to suck ass, as well as Lebeau. Doesn't mean they deserved to keep their jobs.[/quote]


Did you really bring Shula into this conversation ?
Are you trying to act like he was ever a good coach ?:
And it was just his crappy top 10 picks that were sucking ?

Marvin had this team a play away from the Playoffs last season.
For whatever reason, that play wasn`t made.
Do you want to blame Shayne missing a FG
on Marvin ? Do you want to blame a bad
snap by St Louis on Marvin ? Do you want
to blame Brian Simmons and Tory James
not tackling Holmes on a slant pass on Marvin ?

That was my point. And it`s a stupid
arguement to blame it on him.

[LudwigVan Kubrick]

Blaming Marvin Lewis... I just don't get it. How bout getting the man some help and then see how he does when provided the proper resources.

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='LudwigVan Kubrick' post='611277' date='Dec 18 2007, 07:36 PM']Blaming Marvin Lewis... I just don't get it. How bout getting the man some help and then see how he does when provided the proper resources.[/quote]

I've been impressed with Marvin's drafting, and the way he's been able to turn things around despite being hamstrung in many areas by the front office.

[claptonrocks]

Ive cussed out Lewis more than once this year for what I thought was a stupid mistake on his part.
Ive been mad at him for thinking he lost control of the team at times.
Im pissed cuz they have a losing record..
I imagine every fan of every team that goes thru a losing season feels the same way.

That said so does Lovie Smith, Andy Reid, John Fox, Ken Whisenhunt, Eric Mangini.
All these coaches are percieved as very good HC's
What made them bad all of a sudden?

I say keep Lewis and let him build this team into a winner.. He isnt far off imo.

[bubba]

I know its from Profootball talk, but.


[quote]CHAD, T.J. "OUT OF CONTROL"

A league source tells us that there is growing animosity in the Bengals locker room toward receivers Chad Johnson and T.J. Houshmandzadeh.

Per the source, both are yelling "all the time" at quarterback Carson Palmer, but coach Marvin Lewis doesn't say or do anything about it. Players are also upset that the two receivers are trying to "run the team."

The situation reminds us of the latter days of the Denny Green era in Minnesota, where receivers Cris Carter and Randy Moss were berating quarterback Daunte Culpepper and operating under a separate set of rules.[/quote]

[Actium]

[quote name='claptonrocks' post='611312' date='Dec 18 2007, 08:35 PM']Ive cussed out Lewis more than once this year for what I thought was a stupid mistake on his part.
Ive been mad at him for thinking he lost control of the team at times.
Im pissed cuz they have a losing record..
I imagine every fan of every team that goes thru a losing season feels the same way.

That said so does Lovie Smith, Andy Reid, John Fox, Ken Whisenhunt, Eric Mangini.
All these coaches are percieved as very good HC's
What made them bad all of a sudden?

I say keep Lewis and let him build this team into a winner.. He isnt far off imo.[/quote]

Lovie made it to the SB, so he has playoff wins under his belt. He gets a pass. Plus he's been in the playoffs multiple years.

Andy Reid = ditto

John Fox = ditto

Ken Whisenhunt- rookie HC, no one thinks he's great, just has a lot of potential

Eric Mangini = media hype, not that great a coach

[-GoBengals-]

tom cruise

[|Bunghole|]

[quote name='NASTYNATI' post='610751' date='Dec 17 2007, 01:58 PM']or like Cam Cameron, Norv Turner, or Ken Whisenhunt. A new headcoach isnt always the answer.

The dolphins up until week 15 everyone thought would go winless, Norv Turner has done nothing with a team that went 14-2 last season, and Ken Whisenhunt has basically kept the cards where they have been the last few seasons around average.[/quote]
Uhhh, the Chargers, after a slow start are going to win their division....dude.

[|Bunghole|]

[quote name='Le Tigre' post='610919' date='Dec 17 2007, 08:43 PM']Take a look at Romeo. He was a bad Game #2 against us in Cleveland from the abyss. They hang 51 on us...a fortunate insertion of Derick Anderson...clicking offensive line...solid emergence of Edwards/Jurevicious/Soldja...rebound of Jamal...opportunistic but not spectacular defense...off the page special teams...and voila: playoffs.

Is Romeo any smarter than he was a year ago? Or even since the first game of the season? And...he made no changes in his staff other than the DC.

Word up: "many ups and downs".

ML should unload Chucky and all of his underlings other than Croyle. I will back ML for another year...as this one in no way shape or form, could ever happen again.[/quote]
The 2007 Browns are a mirror image of the 2005 Bengals....all offense, no defense, overrated and one and done in the playoffs.

[|Bunghole|]

[quote name='oldschooler' post='611262' date='Dec 18 2007, 07:07 PM']First off, the 2004 season, when they lost to Buffalo,
it was the game after they lost Carson and Kitna started.
And the Bengals won their last 2 games to finish 8-8.

Against the Bills in 2005, I`m sure Marvin wanted
Carson to throw 2 INTs, one that was a pick 6
when they down by 3 points, and were trying to
tie or take the lead.

And anyway, Marvin didn`t miss a kick, snap or tackle
in any of those last 3 games last season.

It`s a stupid arguement, really.[/quote]
I prefer to think of it as a systemic problem with this franchise, but I hope your optimism rules the day at some point in the not too distant future.....

[bengals8580]

a .500 record is not good, anyway u look at it. u make ur excuses with injuries or saying the commish hates the bengals. no matter what, marvin lewis is .500..its not completely his fault. this organization will never be a winner until they have an owner that is commited to winning. as long as he's making money, nothing will change. the seats are filled, were buying the merch. mikey loves it. half the fans of this team are so happy the bengals arent 2-14 and accept going 8-8, and thats the reason nothing will change. and some ppl say that marvin saved this franchise, well i say he hasnt. the bengals are still 1 of the worst franchises in all of professional sports. Its the bengals and cardinals for the pit. its sad, but it starts from the top. nothing changes til the man in charge changes

[Phatcat]

[quote name='LudwigVan Kubrick' post='611277' date='Dec 18 2007, 08:36 PM']Blaming Marvin Lewis... I just don't get it. How bout getting the man some help and then see how he does when provided the proper resources.[/quote]


Agreed. I said in another post several days ago, I do think Marvin needs more help. And I think Marvin is the only guy in a position to put pressure on Mike Brown to implement some organizational changes.

After watching Brian Kelly (UC HC) push UC into changes, it certainly makes me think Marvin should continue to do the same. For those not familiar with Brian Kelly, he basically wanted a committment from UC that they are willing to build a top Div1 program / a winning program. He differentiated this from a winning team which could happen every so often.

Things he accomplished with his new contract:

Higher salaries for all the assistant coaches to put them in a competitive situation to keep assistants and not bolting for better paying jobs.

New practice facilities for the football team

Indoor practice facility

And improving the stadium for increased revenue (luxury boxes, more seating, better concessions, and overall facilities)

------------------------------

I believe Marvin knows where the organizational deficiencies are. My thoughts:

Better Training / Medical staff - perhaps need more personnel, just too few spread too thin

Indoor practice facility

Bring back in an advance scout. I believe in 2005 was the only year we had this.

More defensive specialists in scouting. I think we do a far better job on Offense.

Perhaps add another person like Schottenheimer to asist in GM matters where he could aid both Mike Brown and Marvin. Not a GM, per se because I don't see this happening.

Overall, I still have confidence in Marvin and I this is the year Marvin needs to increase the pressure on Mike to make some changes to the organization. As I said before Marvin will leave before Mike asks him. He is not going to stay around if he feels he does not have the right organization structure and facilities to be successful - just like Brian Kelly as the UC head coach.

[|kennethmw|]

I posted this elsewhere, but thought it deserved to be here as well

I'm also SO tired of hearing the " only 1 winning season since marvin has been coach" Bullshit as well. Lets look at the 5 years. 2003, we were coming off of a 2-14 season, we go 8-8, the most improvement of any team in the league that year. EXCEEDED EXPECTATIONS. In the offseason, we replace the comeback player of the year, with an unproven, although highly regarded, 2nd year QB that had never taken a snap. We go 8-8, and are in the playoff hunt until the last game. EXCEEDED EXPECTATIONS. In 2005, we go 11-5, win the AFC North and had a chance to go deep in the playoffs, until the second play of the 1st playoff game, when our franchise QB goes down on a questionable hit, that creates a new rule about hitting QB's. EXCEEDED EXPECTATIONS. In 2006, with a franchise QB coming back from a knee injury that he was not supposed to come back from as quickly as he did and while playing a first place schedule, and losing your first round draft choice of the previous year to a neck injury, your first round draft choice of 2004 to an ankle injury, and the runner up for defensive rookie of the year to, ok, being a dumbazz, we end up a missed kick from the 2nd most accurate kicker in league history away from the playoffs. Okay we didn't exceed expectations, but we probably at least met expectations. In 2007, we have more injuries to one position than any team in the league, and end up with a linebacking corp that was for most of the season castoffs from other teams, as well as an O line that did not have the same starters in the same position for the first half of the season an is still playing without an all pro right tackle in Big Willie, as well as a bell cow running back the previous 3 seasons who has played on a bad hamstring that won't fully heal until he has at least a couple of months of true rest. MISSED EXPECTATIONS, but with the injuries did we really? Do I have some concerns about the management and coaching of the team, YES! Would I like to see some changes, and some free agents brought in especially on the D? HELL YES!! But, am I willing to give Marvin a pass on this season? once again, YES! I think the nucleus of this team, especially on the O side is good, and healthy, I think the D is probably 2 players and a Defensive Coordinator away from being mid teens. So, in retrospect, 3 years EXCEEDED EXPECTATIONS, 1 year met Expectations, and 1 year MISSED EXPECTATIONS. Do you "realists" think we should really fire our head coach for this?

[Actium]

[quote name='kennethmw' post='611453' date='Dec 19 2007, 11:57 AM']I posted this elsewhere, but thought it deserved to be here as well

I'm also SO tired of hearing the " only 1 winning season since marvin has been coach" Bullshit as well. Lets look at the 5 years. 2003, we were coming off of a 2-14 season, we go 8-8, the most improvement of any team in the league that year. EXCEEDED EXPECTATIONS. In the offseason, we replace the comeback player of the year, with an unproven, although highly regarded, 2nd year QB that had never taken a snap. We go 8-8, and are in the playoff hunt until the last game. EXCEEDED EXPECTATIONS. In 2005, we go 11-5, win the AFC North and had a chance to go deep in the playoffs, until the second play of the 1st playoff game, when our franchise QB goes down on a questionable hit, that creates a new rule about hitting QB's. EXCEEDED EXPECTATIONS. In 2006, with a franchise QB coming back from a knee injury that he was not supposed to come back from as quickly as he did and while playing a first place schedule, and losing your first round draft choice of the previous year to a neck injury, your first round draft choice of 2004 to an ankle injury, and the runner up for defensive rookie of the year to, ok, being a dumbazz, we end up a missed kick from the 2nd most accurate kicker in league history away from the playoffs. Okay we didn't exceed expectations, but we probably at least met expectations. In 2007, we have more injuries to one position than any team in the league, and end up with a linebacking corp that was for most of the season castoffs from other teams, as well as an O line that did not have the same starters in the same position for the first half of the season an is still playing without an all pro right tackle in Big Willie, as well as a bell cow running back the previous 3 seasons who has played on a bad hamstring that won't fully heal until he has at least a couple of months of true rest. MISSED EXPECTATIONS, but with the injuries did we really? Do I have some concerns about the management and coaching of the team, YES! Would I like to see some changes, and some free agents brought in especially on the D? HELL YES!! But, am I willing to give Marvin a pass on this season? once again, YES! I think the nucleus of this team, especially on the O side is good, and healthy, I think the D is probably 2 players and a Defensive Coordinator away from being mid teens. So, in retrospect, 3 years EXCEEDED EXPECTATIONS, 1 year met Expectations, and 1 year MISSED EXPECTATIONS. Do you "realists" think we should really fire our head coach for this?[/quote]

yes, divorce Marvin for barrenness. He's great and we wanted it to work out, but he simply can't give us the playoff-win baby we so desperately want.