Vol_Bengal Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 Say we take a center in the second round... what will his contract be in the slot we'll be picking? I don't know the answer to that. But, Brown is still young, has shown the ability to compete in this league (yes a draft pick can as well, but you have a known quantity in the guy), and he could be had at a price that, to me is worth it for the offensive captain 1A. The qb is 1, the center is right behind him. I'd be interested to see how much difference there would be between what you'd pay a 2nd rounder / year as a cap hit and Brown / year as a cap hit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squirrlnutz Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 [quote name='Vol_Bengal' post='749313' date='Feb 25 2009, 02:03 PM']Say we take a center in the second round... what will his contract be in the slot we'll be picking? I don't know the answer to that. But, Brown is still young, has shown the ability to compete in this league (yes a draft pick can as well, but you have a known quantity in the guy), and he could be had at a price that, to me is worth it for the offensive captain 1A. The qb is 1, the center is right behind him. I'd be interested to see how much difference there would be between what you'd pay a 2nd rounder / year as a cap hit and Brown / year as a cap hit.[/quote] C Ryan Kalil was drafted in round 2 (#59) in 07 by the Panthers and he signed a four-year, $2.98 million contract. [url="http://www.rotoworld.com/Content/playerpages/player_main.aspx?sport=Nfl&id=4189"]http://www.rotoworld.com/Content/playerpag...Nfl&id=4189[/url] So with #38 + yearly inflation we're maybe looking at a 4 year 4-4.5 mil contract for a C. I don't think the team can go wrong with signing a guy like Brown or drafting a young C. Granted brown is proven, but any of the Cs we could land are clearly better than Bluto and could potentially be better than Brown...so for 6 million less per year, I'm ok with the gamble of drafting a rookie and not chasing after Brown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vol_Bengal Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 [quote name='Squirrlnutz' post='749316' date='Feb 25 2009, 02:15 PM']C Ryan Kalil was drafted in round 2 (#59) in 07 by the Panthers and he signed a four-year, $2.98 million contract. [url="http://www.rotoworld.com/Content/playerpages/player_main.aspx?sport=Nfl&id=4189"]http://www.rotoworld.com/Content/playerpag...Nfl&id=4189[/url] So with #38 + yearly inflation we're maybe looking at a 4 year 4-4.5 mil contract for a C. I don't think the team can go wrong with signing a guy like Brown or drafting a young C. Granted brown is proven, but any of the Cs we could land are clearly better than Bluto and could potentially be better than Brown...so for 6 million less per year, I'm ok with the gamble of drafting a rookie and not chasing after Brown.[/quote] Good to know. I didn't realize the drop off in money was that steep that early in the second round. Assuming we drafted one there, I wouldn't have a problem saving that money to spend elsewhere... provided it gets used! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turningpoint Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 IMo we should sign Brown and give him the exact contract the browns gave Stienbach. We put put him at gaurd if we had an injury also, it makes total sense to sign this guy and would be stupid not too. $7mill a year might seam expensive now, but in 5 years it will be cheap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scharm Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 [quote name='Jamie_B' post='749307' date='Feb 25 2009, 12:31 PM']It isnt just about protecting Palmer on the edges, its about protecting the pocket at the point of attack so that he can step up into his throws and get the accuracy he hasnt had since Braham left back. That would be HUGE to the passing game.[/quote] Again, Brahm?????? He was not the league's best center, he was not a 6/7 million a year player. Just because you had GQ doesn't mean you have to go all the way to the other extreme and start throwing money at a center either. Believe me, it's possible to protect Palmer with a just a good center. Good Centers can be had for a lot cheaper than what Jason Brown is hinting at. People like to spout off about Bob Johnson and Paul Brown. Well look at all the Bengal Pro Bowl QBs and who their Centers where. Not a single pro bowl amongst them. What they were is smart, tough, behind the scenes guys. It's very doable. Koz (he was 80th round pick it seems), Brilz and Brahm (Both cast offs). Not sure who Kenny had during 81 his MVP season but it wasn't Bob Johnson I don't think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kochman Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 [quote]Steelers | Saturday wants to sign Wed, 25 Feb 2009 05:52:09 -0800 John Harris, of the Pittsburgh Tribune-Review, reports Indianapolis Colts impending free-agent C Jeff Saturday wants to join the Pittsburgh Steelers. "I talked to Jeff after the Super Bowl, and he said if you can get me there, that would be beautiful," said Pittsburgh-based agent Ralph Cindrich. "This is a Rooney-type of guy if ever there was one." Saturday said he would even move to the guard position if he were to join the team. "He's happy to play guard. He started in the league at guard. He told me, 'I'll play anywhere,' " Cindrich said.[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scharm Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 [quote]Tackles are more important?[/quote] If they aren't. Then why are they typically paid higher? Why is the talk at the top of the draft about Monroe, Smith, Oher and not this year's outstanding class of Centers? Yeah, tackles are more important and they are also harder to find. That's why you don't go throwing huge money at a center that isn't even at the top of his position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akiliMVP Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 [quote name='scharm' post='749324' date='Feb 25 2009, 02:54 PM']If they aren't. Then why are they typically paid higher? Why is the talk at the top of the draft about Monroe, Smith, Oher and not this year's outstanding class of Centers? Yeah, tackles are more important and they are also harder to find. That's why you don't go throwing huge money at a center that isn't even at the top of his position.[/quote] People get a shit load of money when they aren't the best at their position all the time. He's only 25 and one of the top 5 or 6 centers in the NFL. In 2 or 3 years, he could very well be the best. Here's why I think giving Brown 7 million a year would be brilliant: Age - He's only 25 Skill - One of the top 5-6 in the NFL. Great against 3-4 nose tackles. Potential - He's young and will only get better. Durability - He's proven that he's not injury prone. Need - Pretty obvious. Experience - One of the most important aspects of a center. I wouldn't be pissed if they decided to draft a center, but I would rather they use the vast amount of cap money they have to sign a proven young future pro bowl center and focus on other needs for the draft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvin Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 why do you keep saying he's not "at the top of his position"? for his age and experience i'd say he's one of the best centers in the league. who is "at the top of his position"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 [quote name='akiliMVP' post='749326' date='Feb 25 2009, 02:08 PM']People get a shit load of money when they aren't the best at their position all the time. He's only 25 and one of the top 5 or 6 centers in the NFL. In 2 or 3 years, he could very well be the best. Here's why I think giving Brown 7 million a year would be brilliant: Age - He's only 25 Skill - One of the top 5-6 in the NFL. Great against 3-4 nose tackles. Potential - He's young and will only get better. Durability - He's proven that he's not injury prone. Need - Pretty obvious. Experience - One of the most important aspects of a center. I wouldn't be pissed if they decided to draft a center, but I would rather they use the vast amount of cap money they have to sign a proven young future pro bowl center and focus on other needs for the draft.[/quote] x2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squirrlnutz Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 [quote name='akiliMVP' post='749326' date='Feb 25 2009, 03:08 PM']People get a shit load of money when they aren't the best at their position all the time. He's only 25 and one of the top 5 or 6 centers in the NFL. In 2 or 3 years, he could very well be the best. Here's why I think giving Brown 7 million a year would be brilliant: Age - He's only 25 Skill - One of the top 5-6 in the NFL. [b]Great against 3-4 nose tackles.[/b] Potential - He's young and will only get better. Durability - He's proven that he's not injury prone. Need - Pretty obvious. Experience - One of the most important aspects of a center. I wouldn't be pissed if they decided to draft a center, but I would rather they use the vast amount of cap money they have to sign a proven young future pro bowl center and focus on other needs for the draft.[/quote] I'm not disagreeing with you...but how do we know that? He didn't play against the Ravens...the Ravens haven't faired well against the Steelers in recent years. They also used 4 OTs in some sets to run the ball and protect the QB. I'm not saying he isn't the best on the market, but if one is selling his production against 3-4's as the best thing about him, I would need to see some more evidence of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scharm Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 [quote name='TrustNMarvin' post='749328' date='Feb 25 2009, 02:09 PM']why do you keep saying he's not "at the top of his position"? for his age and experience i'd say he's one of the best centers in the league. who is "at the top of his position"?[/quote] Because he isn't. He's a name people have latched onto because he's an available center. So now the logic is pay him 6/7 million a year? I don't buy it. He's a solid player trying to cash in on his unrestricted Free Agency his contract isn't going to make him better. [quote]People get a shit load of money when they aren't the best at their position all the time. He's only 25 and one of the top 5 or 6 centers in the NFL. In 2 or 3 years, he could very well be the best.[/quote] Sure. Just the same there are GREAT O-Lines with Centers not making jack shit compared to the other guys. I don't buy in paying that money to a guy at his level with the options available. Why would you pay that when there's good chance to land a better one in the draft or even FA. It's arguable he isn't even the best available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvin Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 [quote name='scharm' post='749362' date='Feb 25 2009, 05:12 PM']Because he isn't. He's a name people have latched onto because he's an available center. So now the logic is pay him 6/7 million a year? I don't buy it. He's a solid player trying to cash in on his unrestricted Free Agency his contract isn't going to make him better. Sure. Just the same there are GREAT O-Lines with Centers not making jack shit compared to the other guys. I don't buy in paying that money to a guy at his level with the options available. Why would you pay that when there's good chance to land a better one in the draft or even FA. It's arguable he isn't even the best available.[/quote] i get that your not sold on him, but what are the better options? everyone else available in FA would necessitate drafting one anyways. and like many have said it's risky sticking carson behind a rookie. birk made 6 million last year and saturday 5, so it's not like we'll be saving that much money signing one of them and on top of it we'd have to spend a second or third round draft choice. even though the price tag is high, sign him long term and use the pick on another area of need. as has been pointed out in 2-3 years brown's "mega" deal will be more than reasonable especially if there's a couple uncapped years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scharm Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 [quote]who is "at the top of his position"?[/quote] That's the point isn't it? Who? The reality is you can take 18/19 different centers from the league and start playing word games to make them a top 5/6 center. From a Bengals fans POV we know they need one, we also know the former one wasn't good, and the guy he replaced was often under rated and overlooked until he got injured. Everything a Center does is intangible. People claiming this center is top 5 that one is top 5 is a bunch of bullshit unless they are sitting in a film grading it with the O-line coach. What isn't bullshit is the Center is a piece of an overall unit and it's been proven and proven again in Cincinnati that you can have a workman like Center and still have a great O-Line. I don't dump 6/7 million into Brown because he isn't head and shoulders above anyone, he's just mixed in a group of good, there are several good centers available through FA and the draft. I'm sorry let someone break the bank and I'll take the chance that Brown does become "THE BEST CENTER" and I'd rather have a good solid center and push the cap to another position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scharm Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 [quote name='TrustNMarvin' post='749364' date='Feb 25 2009, 04:20 PM']i get that your not sold on him, but what are the better options? everyone else available in FA would necessitate drafting one anyways. and like many have said it's risky sticking carson behind a rookie. birk made 6 million last year and saturday 5, so it's not like we'll be saving that much money signing one of them and on top of it we'd have to spend a second or third round draft choice. even though the price tag is high, sign him long term and use the pick on another area of need. as has been pointed out in 2-3 years brown's "mega" deal will be more than reasonable especially if there's a couple uncapped years.[/quote] I'd go after Mike Goff or hope the market for Saturday isn't as hot. Goff is a solid guard. He can probalbly pick up the other spots. He would open the draft board on draft day because he has played Center for the bengals before. He gives you options as a starting guard, then moving a player to tackle or if you don't get the Center you desire you can maybe risk giving one of your younger guys a chance and if that doesn't work he's your emergency plan and he'd be better than GQ. Ultimately I wouldn't have that much money in the Center position. Centers don't move positions, and despite what everyone thinks there isn't that much impact from the what everyone considers the very best and a solid one. I think having Rich Brahm proved that. Just get one that isn't horrible and I don't spend 6/7 million to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bengalsfansince68 Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 In my opinion, Mike Goff is clearly not the answer to our center problem. Signing a player who is not far from a nursing home sounds like a Mike Brown plan to save a few precious bucks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvin Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 honestly i never thought i'd be pushing for a 7 million dollar center, but alas. i also think goff is a good idea. he can be had for much less than the three top FA centers, and can play both positions. another issue though is the age of birk, saturday and goff, 32,33 and 33 respectively. i guess it would be a quick fix, but i think everyone agrees that continuity on the o-line is paramount, i would just hate to be constantly shuffling and reshuffling because we sign guys that are on the back nine of their careers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBandJoeyV Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 What about Jake Grove from the Raiders? He probably is a second tier FA that should be an upgrade over Ghiapet. Anyone know anything about him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scharm Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 [quote name='bengalsfansince68' post='749369' date='Feb 25 2009, 04:44 PM']In my opinion, Mike Goff is clearly not the answer to our center problem. Signing a player who is not far from a nursing home sounds like a Mike Brown plan to save a few precious bucks.[/quote] Who said he was? He gives them options on draft day which is supposedly a big benefit for overpaying Jason Brown according to some. IMO, he would be improvement over GQ if they had to have him play center. That's worse case. He also frees up Whitworth to move to RT. Quickly, tell me the difference between Goff and Brown as far as quality of play. Goff has been among explosive running games his entire career. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvin Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 he played for the raiders so the bengals would look like the walton's of nfl franchises at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bengalsfansince68 Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 [quote name='scharm' post='749374' date='Feb 25 2009, 04:50 PM'][color="#0000FF"]Quickly, tell me the difference between Goff and Brown as far as quality of play. [/color][/quote] I can't really compare their quality of play because I can't sit in a film room to break them down. Which, by the way, is probably true of most those, on this board and others, who choose to offer their many, many opinions. It's the internet. What am I supposed to believe? Hell Scharm, I have read hundreds and hundreds of your opinions and I don't have a clue which ones are fact and which are purely conjecture. While this too, is my opinion, I believe it as if it were a well known fact. In the NFL, when you hit 30, you are getting old. When you get to 33 you are older yet and when players hit 35, most are completely done. I'd give the young veteran player Jason Brown his 6 mill long before I even begin to consider Mike Goff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvin Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 [quote name='bengalsfansince68' post='749383' date='Feb 25 2009, 06:14 PM']I can't really compare their quality of play because I can't sit in a film room to break them down. Which, by the way, is probably true of most those, on this board and others, who choose to offer their many, many opinions. It's the internet. What am I supposed to believe? Hell Scharm, I have read hundreds and hundreds of your opinions and I don't have a clue which ones are fact and which are purely conjecture. While this too, is my opinion, I believe it as if it were a well known fact. In the NFL, when you hit 30, you are getting old. When you get to 33 you are older yet and when players hit 35, most are completely done. I'd give the young veteran player Jason Brown his 6 mill long before I even begin to consider Mike Goff.[/quote] unfortunately i think it'll be closer to 8 million Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bengalsfansince68 Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 [quote name='TrustNMarvin' post='749386' date='Feb 25 2009, 05:20 PM'][color="#0000FF"]unfortunately i think it'll be closer to 8 million[/color][/quote] Negotiating him down to six is key, but pay him if we have to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USN Bengal Posted February 25, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 We don't need a guard, do we? Goff would be nice for depth, but why don't we address a GLARING need first? We need a tackle in a lot of peoples eyes, and there doesn't look to be any in FA that will be a huge upgrade for us now that Jordan Gross and Vernon Carey have resigned with their respective teams. We ALL know we need a center, and to look what's out there that are at a PROVEN NFL LEVEL... there are 4. Brown, Birk, Groves, and Saturday. Saturday and Birk are 33. Groves and Brown are 25/26. Saturday has a Super Bowl ring and tons of playoff experience. Birk has playoff experience. Brown has playoff experience. Groves has played. Brown, Saturday, and I believe Birk have all played guard at one point too. Let's see... Our professional choicestwo 33 year olds, one guy who might not be an upgrade to Ghiacuic, and Brown who IS an upgrade and has played in our division. Or a rookie to protect Carson Palmer and call the blocking schemes. Common sense prevails, you get the younger vet who will anchor your line for years, protecting your franchise investment, rather than taking a chance with an unknown rookie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bengalsfansince68 Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 [quote name='USN Bengal' date='Feb 25 2009, 05:31 PM' post='749388'] [color="#0000FF"]you get the younger vet who will anchor your line for years[/color] Thanks for the moment of clarity, Navy Guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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