FA Centers

[USN Bengal]

[quote name='bengalsfansince68' post='749390' date='Feb 25 2009, 05:38 PM']USN Bengal' date='Feb 25 2009, 05:31 PM' post='749388']
[color="#0000FF"]you get the younger vet who will anchor your line for years[/color]

Thanks for the moment of clarity, Navy Guy.[/quote]

Just goes to show that the old adage is true;

"Even a blind squirrel finds a nut now and then."

LOL!

[|kennethmw|]

[quote name='USN Bengal' post='749388' date='Feb 25 2009, 06:31 PM']We don't need a guard, do we? Goff would be nice for depth, but why don't we address a GLARING need first?

We need a tackle in a lot of peoples eyes, and there doesn't look to be any in FA that will be a huge upgrade for us now that Jordan Gross and Vernon Carey have resigned with their respective teams.

We ALL know we need a center, and to look what's out there that are at a PROVEN NFL LEVEL... there are 4.

Brown, Birk, Groves, and Saturday.

Saturday and Birk are 33.

Groves and Brown are 25/26.

Saturday has a Super Bowl ring and tons of playoff experience.

Birk has playoff experience.

Brown has playoff experience.

Groves has played.

Brown, Saturday, and I believe Birk have all played guard at one point too.

Let's see...

Our professional choicestwo 33 year olds, one guy who might not be an upgrade to Ghiacuic, and Brown who IS an upgrade and has played in our division.

Or a rookie to protect Carson Palmer and call the blocking schemes.

Common sense prevails, you get the younger vet who will anchor your line for years, protecting your franchise investment, rather than taking a chance with an unknown rookie.[/quote]

USN, I understand where you and most of the guys are with Brown, but I still don't know that I want to make him the highest paid center in the league. We all know that at some point last season, the coaching staff considered replacing G with Cook. If they think he might be the answer, then maybe you go and get the 33 yr old center and have him teach the kid. Especially if you can get a Birk or Saturday for 3-4 mill instead of the 6-8 that Brown wants. Or do they think that a Rookie can do what Mangold has done in NY. I know many of us want a big splash in FA, and I wouldn't mind one, but I also wouldn't bitch if they used the cap room to to get three or four second tier guys, and fill more holes than just one.

[bengalsfansince68]

C has been our most glaring hole ever since Richie.

I'm tired of waiting!!!

[bengaled]

[quote name='scharm' post='749374' date='Feb 25 2009, 04:50 PM']Who said he was? He gives them options on draft day which is supposedly a big benefit for overpaying Jason Brown according to some.

IMO, he would be improvement over GQ if they had to have him play center. That's worse case. He also frees up Whitworth to move to RT.

Quickly, tell me the difference between Goff and Brown as far as quality of play. Goff has been among explosive running games his entire career.[/quote]
has goff even played center since the time when he lost the job and was moved to guard?

[sparky151]

[quote name='scharm' post='749322' date='Feb 25 2009, 01:49 PM']Koz (he was 80th round pick it seems), Brilz and Brahm (Both cast offs). Not sure who Kenny had during 81 his MVP season but it wasn't Bob Johnson I don't think.[/quote]

In 81, we had Blair Bush at center. We had 3 first round centers in a row, from Johnson to Bush to Rimington.

Scharm, I'm with the others 7 mil for Brown isn't a bad deal at all. Look at it this way. Last year our first choice offensive line was Jones-Whitworth-Ghiaciuc-Williams-Andrews. Suppose we sign Brown to an 8 mil a year deal, move Whitworth to RT, draft a guard in the 3rd round. Then we'd have Collins-Rookie-Brown-Williams-Whitworth. That line collectively isn't any more expensive than what we had last year, it's just got a more expensive center and cheaper LT.

[scharm]

[quote name='bengaled' post='749423' date='Feb 25 2009, 06:44 PM']has goff even played center since the time when he lost the job and was moved to guard?[/quote]

I don't know how many starts he had at center. I am confident that a veteran like Goff can certainly be an upgrade over GQ.

[scharm]

[quote]We don't need a guard, do we? Goff would be nice for depth, but why don't we address a GLARING need first?[/quote]

I think the need is better O-Line play and specifically run blocking.

[quote]We need a tackle in a lot of peoples eyes, and there doesn't look to be any in FA that will be a huge upgrade for us now that Jordan Gross and Vernon Carey have resigned with their respective teams.[/quote]

Goff gives them options. He can clearly address a line spot thus moving another member to another spot like tackle.

Then your down to 1 spot. Which is exactly the same senario as if you sign Brown.

[quote]We ALL know we need a center, and to look what's out there that are at a PROVEN NFL LEVEL... there are 4.[/quote]

Then there is a rare draft that has (pending on who you read) 5 to 6 possible starters and 3 to 4 of them being immediate contributors.

That's a flooded Center market and tell me how that translates making Jason Brown 6/7 million dollar player?

[quote]Common sense prevails, you get the younger vet who will anchor your line for years, protecting your franchise investment, rather than taking a chance with an unknown rookie.[/quote]

So you are against drafting a tackle at pick no. 6? Because no one really cares about a rookie filling that spot although it is a tougher spot to play because you are typically on an island.

[scharm]

[quote]Suppose we sign Brown to an 8 mil a year deal, move Whitworth to RT, draft a guard in the 3rd round.[/quote]

Suppose you sign a cheaper guard, move Whit to RT, and draft Center?

That gives you more cap room to push to other positions (like resigning Andrews) and probalbly a better line and more depth.

Collins, Goff, Rookie, Williams, Whitworth

You'll have a tough time resigning Andrews and extending Collins with big cap room in Whitworth and Brown.

[bengalsfansince68]

[quote name='scharm' post='749440' date='Feb 25 2009, 07:35 PM'][color="#0000FF"]You'll have a tough time resigning Andrews and extending Collins with big cap room in Whitworth and Brown.[/color][/quote]
Signing Stacey the dancin bear is not a big concern for me. I'd like to see Whit & Brown anchored at LG & Center for six years or so. I believe Whit is best suited to a road grader LG and Brown may be the best C option available.

[scharm]

[quote name='bengalsfansince68' post='749448' date='Feb 25 2009, 07:50 PM']Signing Stacey the dancin bear is not a big concern for me. I'd like to see Whit & Brown anchored at LG & Center for six years or so. I believe Whit is best suited to a road grader LG and Brown may be the best C option available.[/quote]

You can still anchor your line with similar quality and have cap room to push to other positions very easyily. There is not a need to have a 7 million dollar center to have a good line.

Jason Brown isn't the be all end all of Centers, not by a long shot.

[bengalsfansince68]

[quote name='scharm' post='749450' date='Feb 25 2009, 07:57 PM'][color="#0000FF"]Jason Brown isn't the be all end all of Centers, not by a long shot.[/color][/quote]
Scharmy, you have made the same point multiple times.
Nobody said Brown is an end all...I said he looked like he could be the best option to me.
I know you're a brilliant capologist and all, I get that!!
I'll still pass on Mike Goff...
but thank you for your input, sir.

[akiliMVP]

[quote name='Squirrlnutz' post='749347' date='Feb 25 2009, 04:13 PM']I'm not disagreeing with you...but how do we know that? He didn't play against the Ravens...the Ravens haven't faired well against the Steelers in recent years. They also used 4 OTs in some sets to run the ball and protect the QB.

I'm not saying he isn't the best on the market, but if one is selling his production against 3-4's as the best thing about him, I would need to see some more evidence of this.[/quote]
Just from reading what Raven's fans are saying on other boards about how important he is to re-sign and how good he has played against the monster nose tackles. They love him and don't want him to go.

[scharm]

[quote]What am I supposed to believe? Hell Scharm, I have read hundreds and hundreds of your opinions[/quote]

You've answered your own question. Believe the source you continue to read.

Anyone on this board claiming they know Jason Brown is a top 5 center is full of shit. It's impossible to know.

The reality is and this is truth: Everyone here wants an upgrade to Center because GQ sucked, Rich Brahm was solid.

Everything a Center does is intangible and highly dependent on surrounding cast, which is a common theme among O-Linemen. Very few watch, they don't pay attention until a penalty is called or a QB is sacked.

I'm just saying I'd love to have Jason Brown, but if it takes the numbers people are throwing around it probalbly wouldn't be the best idea considering everything that is available currently. Then in a few years when Jason Brown levels out to be just a solid Center we won't have to trash him like we all do currently with Andrews because he got stuck with a Franchise tag but is only a solid tackle.

I'm also saying it isn't a good idea to have a bunch of cap room tied to a guard and center with 1 of your tackles unproven, the other in question due to injury and contract. You make a Center a 7 million dollar man along with Whit a 7 million dollar man it's going to be hard to fill the critical spots if Collins/Andrews don't pan out, and it will be hard to retain them if they do.

[oldschooler]

From John Thornton's blog . . .



[quote][size=5][b]Free Agent Emails[/b][/size]
February 25th, 2009 | [url="http://www.allproblogger.com/?cat=3"]NFL[/url]

[img]http://www.allproblogger.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/459121m.jpg[/img]

[b]Jason Brown[/b]





Many Bengals fans keep asking me about the possibility o[b]f Ravens C Jason Brown[/b] becoming a Bengal. I talked about this about two weeks ago before the combine. I believe he can become a Bengal but it is going to cost you a lot of money. Serious money. I mentioned before that Brown’s agent is my former agent [b]Harold Lewis[/b]. Harold is a great agent. He is a smooth talker like most agents. He will fight to get you every dollar he can get.



It is going to be up to the player to tell Harold when he is comfortable with the contract that is on the table. Or else Harold is going to move on to the highest bidder. In my case six years ago, Harold told the Bengals to get my contract to a certain point and we would be ready to sign and not go on any other visits. I told Marvin Lewis the same thing while I was on my way to the Cardinals for a visit. Cincinnati got my contract to where the other top guys in free agency were and they put the ball back in our court to sign. Harold then went up a few more million. Marvin then called me and said, “Hey, I did what you asked, I don’t think we can go much higher because we are trying to sign two other guys as well.(LB Kevin Hardy, CB Denard Walker)” I said OK, I will tell Harold I’m ready to sign. After my visit to Arizona while sitting on the plane, I instructed Harold to finalize my deal with Cincy and have it done when I landed back home in Nashville.

When I stopped in Chicago for my layover, Harold called me and asked why I had been talking to Marvin and that I was screwing up his negotiations. That pissed me off. So I told him that this is my decision and this is the contract that I wanted and to get it done. So when I landed in Nashville, the deal was done. We were all happy and excited. Harold told me that he kept pushing Cincy to up the offer after we had talked and they took the deal off the table, but he got them to put it back on around the time I landed. That pissed me off even more because that was my money that he was playing with. Harold and I eventually split two before the 2005 season. I was very thankful to him for getting me that contract but I wanted to move on.



So in terms of Jason Brown, Harold will be looking to get a ground breaking deal. If you [url="http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/football/bal-sp.ravens25feb25,0,5792694.story"][color="#660000"]read between the lines in this newspaper article[/color][/url], he is not looking to be paid like a center. If the Bengals are willing to pay Jason like that, it would be a surprise. I don’t think they rate him as that good of a player to make him a top paid lineman. But if the Bengals are in the business of handing out big money, Jason Brown could be your new center.[/quote]




[url="http://www.allproblogger.com/?p=858#more-858"]http://www.allproblogger.com/?p=858#more-858[/url]

[scharm]

I wonder who John Thorton votes for the Pro Bowl at Center?

[gatorclaws]

[quote name='oldschooler' post='749549' date='Feb 26 2009, 08:04 AM']From John Thornton's blog . . .








[url="http://www.allproblogger.com/?p=858#more-858"]http://www.allproblogger.com/?p=858#more-858[/url][/quote]

That agent sounds like a cock to me. I understand trying to get the most money you can for your client, but he's a lying piece of shit. If you say we'll sign at X amount and the team offers it to you, you should sign and not bump up your demands.

[|Bengal Migration|]

[quote name='gatorclaws' post='749553' date='Feb 26 2009, 11:10 PM']That agent sounds like a cock to me. I understand trying to get the most money you can for your client, but he's a lying piece of shit. If you say we'll sign at X amount and the team offers it to you, you should sign and not bump up your demands.[/quote]
The agent gets paid a percentage. A bigger deal = more money for not only his client, but himself, as well. No doubt that was the motivation involved... greedy bastard putting his own paycheck above his client's desires.

[Squirrlnutz]

The way its shaping up to me is that Brown will go to a team without a 50 million dollar OT or OG and become one of the highest paid OL in the league.

We have a 50 million dollar OT who might ride the bench...I doubt he's comin here.

[akiliMVP]

[quote name='scharm' post='749526' date='Feb 26 2009, 08:19 AM']You've answered your own question. Believe the source you continue to read.

Anyone on this board claiming they know Jason Brown is a top 5 center is full of shit. It's impossible to know.

The reality is and this is truth: Everyone here wants an upgrade to Center because GQ sucked, Rich Brahm was solid.

Everything a Center does is intangible and highly dependent on surrounding cast, which is a common theme among O-Linemen. Very few watch, they don't pay attention until a penalty is called or a QB is sacked.

I'm just saying I'd love to have Jason Brown, but if it takes the numbers people are throwing around it probalbly wouldn't be the best idea considering everything that is available currently. Then in a few years when Jason Brown levels out to be just a solid Center we won't have to trash him like we all do currently with Andrews because he got stuck with a Franchise tag but is only a solid tackle.

I'm also saying it isn't a good idea to have a bunch of cap room tied to a guard and center with 1 of your tackles unproven, the other in question due to injury and contract. You make a Center a 7 million dollar man along with Whit a 7 million dollar man it's going to be hard to fill the critical spots if Collins/Andrews don't pan out, and it will be hard to retain them if they do.[/quote]
In today's NFL, 7 million per season is barely above average it seems. The Bengals are going to have a shit load of money to spend, like 30 million. They couldn't possibly spend it all just re-signing their free agents like Hobson claims, unless they give T.J. 10 + million per season and Benson a bigger contract then Brandon Jacobs, neither of which will happen. This is the season where they actually have the money to make a splash. Go for the guy that would be a long term solution at a huge need.

It may seem like overspending now, but a few years from now it will seem paltry. Plus when your staring at Ryan Cook as your starting center for next season, and you don't know if the top 2 centers will be there with your 2nd round pick, you make a move to ensure the position doesn't continue to suck.

[bengalsfansince68]

[quote name='akiliMVP' post='749577' date='Feb 26 2009, 09:34 AM']It may seem like overspending now, but a few years from now it will seem paltry.[/quote]
Very good point, sir.
In addition, sometimes the owner has to step up and make a statement to both the players and the fans, despite it costing a few bucks.
That statement is way, way, long overdue.

[scharm]

[quote name='bengalsfansince68' post='749581' date='Feb 26 2009, 09:40 AM']Very good point, sir.
In addition, sometimes the owner has to step up and make a statement to both the players and the fans, despite it costing a few bucks.
That statement is way, way, long overdue.[/quote]

Make that same statement by signing Bart Scott. Don't overpay a center.

[bengalsfansince68]

[quote name='scharm' post='749647' date='Feb 26 2009, 11:51 AM'][color="#0000FF"]Make that same statement by signing Bart Scott. Don't overpay a center.[/color][/quote]
I'd be quite happy with either.

[scharm]

[quote name='bengalsfansince68' post='749649' date='Feb 26 2009, 11:55 AM']I'd be quite happy with either.[/quote]

So really you just want to see a "big splash" in FA, you don't really care if it's Jason Brown or whoever?

I can buy that. I can see that POV, I would rather have the Bengals sign Jason Brown to 80 million a year vs do nothing.

However, I hope the something happens and I just don't buy into making C a highly paid position. You can find a good enough center and still have a good line without commiting that type of cash, but if it's all or nothing then give me Brown at 7 million vs nothing.

[bengalsfansince68]

[quote name='scharm' post='749652' date='Feb 26 2009, 12:01 PM'][color="#0000FF"]So really you just want to see a "big splash" in FA, you don't really care if it's Jason Brown or whoever? [/color][/quote]
Thanks for the morning condescension but I'll tell you...
If Eric Steinbach was worth his 7 mills to Cleveland, Jason Brown will be worth 7 mills to Cincinnati.
IMO

[bengalsdave985]

RAVENS CUT OFF TALKS WITH JASON BROWN
Posted by Mike Florio on February 26, 2009, 12:06 p.m. EST
Albert Breer of SportingNews.com reports, at the PFT safe haven site, that the Baltimore Ravens have cut off talks with free-agent-to-be Jason Brown.

Specifically, the Ravens have informed Brown that the player isn’t in their plans for 2009.

Brown, a center in Baltimore, could also play guard with a new team.

One team that reportedly will be sniffing around Brown come midnight (if not earlier . . . if not already) is the Dolphins. Last year, Miami had a deal with guard Justin Smiley less than 30 minutes into the free-agency period. This year, Brown could be the next guy to negotiate a multi-multi-million-dollar contract from scratch, with no advance discussion or dialogue or communication of any kind, within an hour after the period for having permissible discussion or dialogue or communication of any kind begins.