Bengals1181 Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 [quote name='sparky151' post='749017' date='Feb 24 2009, 12:50 PM']If you're saying the coaches were going to bench Ghiaciuc, fine. If you are suggesting that we go with Cook as our starting center, you're bonkers. Cook hurt himself in warmups. Doesn't exactly inspire confidence does it? If he was all that, he would have seen more playing time before that game too. Let him compete for a roster spot with the other scrubs, but he's obviously not the answer.[/quote] I'm not saying we should go with Cook. You said the coaches thought Bluto was our best center. If they were going to bench him, at one point they obviously didn't think he was. That's all I was saying. I'm all for getting a free agent center and letting Cook, Santucci, and Crummey learn and develop behind them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvin Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 the only free agent center that would not require a draft pick this year would be brown. there's no reason to sign a 30+ center, and ignore one of the deepest center drafts in recent memory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vol_Bengal Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 [quote name='TrustNMarvin' post='749069' date='Feb 24 2009, 03:43 PM']the only free agent center that would not require a draft pick this year would be brown. there's no reason to sign a 30+ center, and ignore one of the deepest center drafts in recent memory.[/quote] What does a center require, via FA??? They're way low on the totem pole of offensive line, actually just about any position aside from the specialties really. If you do nothing but get the center position locked up from "outside last year's roster" you've accomplished a lot and are able to address other needs... Does anyone know Brown's wanted numbers yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldschooler Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 [quote name='Vol_Bengal' post='749087' date='Feb 24 2009, 02:33 PM']What does a center require, via FA??? They're way low on the totem pole of offensive line, actually just about any position aside from the specialties really. If you do nothing but get the center position locked up from "outside last year's roster" you've accomplished a lot and are able to address other needs... Does anyone know Brown's wanted numbers yet?[/quote] I don't know what he is asking, but this was in an article I posted above . .. [quote]The Tampa Bay Buccaneers are paying center Jeff Faine a total of $37.5 million on a six-year pact, including $15 million in guaranteed money. It’s the richest center contract in NFL history and it’s still less than the guard deals.[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldschooler Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 [url="http://www.profootballtalk.com/2009/02/24/fins-to-chase-jason-brown/"][size=5][color="#d81718"]FINS TO CHASE JASON BROWN?[/color][/size][/url] Posted by Mike Florio on February 24, 2009, 3:21 p.m. EST So if the Ravens don't re-sign center/guard [url="http://www.profootballtalk.com/2009/02/24/fins-to-chase-jason-brown/#"]Jason Brown[img]http://images.intellitxt.com/ast/adTypes/mag-glass_10x10.gif[/img][/url], where might he land? How about Miami? According to Jeff Darlington of the [i]Miami Herald[/i], speculation "[url="http://www.miamiherald.com/sports/breaking-news/story/919279.html"][color="#d81718"]continued to build[/color][/url]" at the Scouting Combine in Indianapolis that the Dolphins will pursue Brown as a replacement for Samson Satele. Darlington writes that several league sources believe the Fins are hoping for Brown to not re-sign with the Ravens and to enter free agency on Friday. A cynical mind might be tempted to think that the Dolphins already have been talking to Brown's agent, Harold Lewis, about a possible deal. Of course, such communications would constitute tampering. Then again, last year the Dolphins had a deal in place with guard Justin Smiley [url="http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/02/29/smiley-signs-with-fins/"][color="#d81718"]only 27 minutes into the free-agency period[/color][/url]. Maybe this time around the Fins will be a bit more discreet, waiting at least until 1:00 a.m. EST on Friday. [url="http://www.profootballtalk.com/2009/02/24/fins-to-chase-jason-brown/"]http://www.profootballtalk.com/2009/02/24/...se-jason-brown/[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akiliMVP Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 [quote name='Vol_Bengal' post='749087' date='Feb 24 2009, 04:33 PM']What does a center require, via FA??? They're way low on the totem pole of offensive line, actually just about any position aside from the specialties really. If you do nothing but get the center position locked up from "outside last year's roster" you've accomplished a lot and are able to address other needs... Does anyone know Brown's wanted numbers yet?[/quote] Best guess for Brown would be 7-8 million per year. Word is he wants Alan Faneca money, which is 5 years 40 million. Highest paid center in the NFL is Jeff Faine, 6 years 37.5 million. He'll be somewhere in between that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Bengal Migration| Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 [quote name='akiliMVP' post='749096' date='Feb 25 2009, 06:41 AM']Best guess for Brown would be 7-8 million per year. Word is he wants Alan Faneca money, which is 5 years 40 million. Highest paid center in the NFL is Jeff Faine, 6 years 37.5 million. He'll be somewhere in between that.[/quote] Sounds like we'd have to pony up the money we didn't spend on Housh. Not a small price tag, for certain, but the impact on the O might just be worth it. It sure as hell would be nice to see Carson play 16 games again. Running for 4pyc for the first time since Braham went down wouldn't suck either.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akiliMVP Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 [quote name='Bengal Migration' post='749115' date='Feb 24 2009, 05:53 PM']Sounds like we'd have to pony up the money we didn't spend on Housh. Not a small price tag, for certain, but the impact on the O might just be worth it. It sure as hell would be nice to see Carson play 16 games again. Running for 4pyc for the first time since Braham went down wouldn't suck either..[/quote] Hell they spent damn near 6 million per season (5 year, 29.5 million to be exact) for Antwan Odom. I could see them pony up a little more for Jason Brown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sparky151 Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 Brown would cost about what Andrews would have last year. Of the two, I'd rather have Brown and let Andrews walk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scharm Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 Why would you pay that much for Brown when there is a good chance to land a center that is better in the draft? I Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bengals1181 Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 [quote name='scharm' post='749159' date='Feb 24 2009, 07:22 PM']Why would you pay that much for Brown when there is a good chance to land a center that is better in the draft? I[/quote] proven success against the teams in our division, still young, and no rookie learning curve? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldschooler Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 [quote name='scharm' post='749159' date='Feb 24 2009, 06:22 PM']Why would you pay that much for Brown when there is a good chance to land a center that is better in the draft?[/quote] Personally, I would rather grab one in the draft. But the reason you would pay Brown that money, is because he is proven in this division. And draft picks aren't proven at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bengalsfansince68 Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 [quote name='Bengals1181' post='749162' date='Feb 24 2009, 07:31 PM'][color="#0000FF"]proven success against the teams in our division, still young, and no rookie learning curve?[/color][/quote] And allows us to focus on other parts of the team equation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scharm Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 [quote name='oldschooler' post='749163' date='Feb 24 2009, 07:33 PM']Personally, I would rather grab one in the draft. But the reason you would pay Brown that money, is because he is proven in this division. And draft picks aren't proven at all.[/quote] So is Ray Lewis, So is Bart Scott. Mike Goff is proven in this divsion and the league. Would you pay 6/7 million for him? Is Brown all that much better? Goff would do more good for this franchise by being versatile and not costing you 6/7 mil a year. You don't pay Faneca money to a center like Brown. Jason Brown is the typical example of how Free Agency is just a bunch of hot air. A name fans have latched on to and now he's a 6/7 million dollar a year guy. If your throwing around that type of coin, go get an impact player not a center. Especially with a loaded center draft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USN Bengal Posted February 25, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 [quote name='scharm' post='749169' date='Feb 24 2009, 07:48 PM']So is Ray Lewis, So is Bart Scott. Mike Goff is proven in this divsion and the league. Would you pay 6/7 million for him? Is Brown all that much better? Goff would do more good for this franchise by being versatile and not costing you 6/7 mil a year. You don't pay Faneca money to a center like Brown. Jason Brown is the typical example of how Free Agency is just a bunch of hot air. A name fans have latched on to and now he's a 6/7 million dollar a year guy. If your throwing around that type of coin, go get an impact player not a center. Especially with a loaded center draft.[/quote] I guess it's all how you look at the importance of the center scharm. He is the QB of the o-line, calls the blocking scheme for the line, protects your franchise player. Look what we did with Braham at center versus Ghuiciuc... isn't it obvious? A center is worth more than a guard in my opnion, always has been and always will be. Paul Brown thought highly enough of centers and of their obvious importance that he drafted one as the first ever pick of our Bengals. If that isn't evidence enough of the HUGE difference maker a proven center is, then there is no way in hell you would understand any other explanation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bengalsfansince68 Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 [quote name='USN Bengal' post='749189' date='Feb 24 2009, 09:35 PM'][color="#0000FF"]A center is worth more than a guard in my opnion, always has been and always will be.[/color][/quote] Agreed 100% Jason Brown can excel at both. I really want Brown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BENGALS666 Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 I can't believe I'm reading post by Bengals fans downplaying the value of Centers.. The minute was Rich Braham was gone this offense became disfunctional. With Carson Palmer as your QB a big bad 3-4 ready C is absolutely essential.. If you can sign a top 7 or 8 FA C for the price of Odom, sign him... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akiliMVP Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 [quote name='bengalsfansince68' post='749164' date='Feb 24 2009, 08:34 PM']And allows us to focus on other parts of the team equation.[/quote] EXACTLY! You get a top young (25) center who has proven he can stay healthy and play at a high level against 3-4 nose tackles. Any of the top centers could easily suck or be injury prone, we don't know. You know what you have with Brown and aren't forced to take a center in the draft. Hell I'd rather let Benson walk and just sign Jason Brown if they think Benson's contract will make Brown unaffordable (is that a word?). Take a tackle in round 1 (Monroe) and running back in round 2 (Andre Brown = Matt Forte 2.0) and the offense is set for years. LT - Monroe LG - Whitworth C - Brown RG - Williams RT - Collins That's a damn good looking line Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBZ Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 I agree that Brown is one guy that may be worth spending the cash...Then you can take BPA on the O-Line and move from there. BZ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scharm Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 [quote]I guess it's all how you look at the importance of the center scharm.[/quote] [quote]I can't believe I'm reading post by Bengals fans downplaying the value of Centers.. The minute was Rich Braham was gone this offense became disfunctional.[/quote] Well, tell me something how come the best Center prospect will never go top 10 in the NFL today? Why? It's not how I look at it, it's reality. It's not also just about the value of the Center position it's about what you are paying, the prospect you are paying, and what other options exist. 6/7 million a year for Jason Brown sounds stupid to me. He's not even the best Center on the market. He may have more upside but he isn't proven and doesn't have the resume of other guys available. This years draft class could boast 5-6 eventual starters (pending on which draft guru you want to believe). I don't devalue the center position at all. Rich Brahm played for a 1 million a couple seasons ago. I'm not even sure Jason Brown is that much better than Brahm. I'm sorry Jason Brown represents the typical bullshit you find this time of year with FA, 1 player becomes a must have and a solution to all their problems. Whitworth just signed a deal averaging around 7 mil (?) He pretty much can play every spot on that line (except C). I agree, the Bengals need an upgrade and good quality Center, they don't need to have a 6-8 million dollar center lining up to 7 million dollar guard. When neither player has ever been to a pro bowl. Just my take. It's not about the value of the center position completely, it's more about who and what else you can do. I don't see it and I hope the bengals don't see it either if the sight is 6/7 million a year for Jason Brown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USN Bengal Posted February 25, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 [quote name='scharm' post='749242' date='Feb 25 2009, 07:43 AM']Well, tell me something how come the best Center prospect will never go top 10 in the NFL today? Why? It's not how I look at it, it's reality. It's not also just about the value of the Center position it's about what you are paying, the prospect you are paying, and what other options exist. 6/7 million a year for Jason Brown sounds stupid to me. He's not even the best Center on the market. He may have more upside but he isn't proven and doesn't have the resume of other guys available. This years draft class could boast 5-6 eventual starters (pending on which draft guru you want to believe). I don't devalue the center position at all. Rich Brahm played for a 1 million a couple seasons ago. I'm not even sure Jason Brown is that much better than Brahm. I'm sorry Jason Brown represents the typical bullshit you find this time of year with FA, 1 player becomes a must have and a solution to all their problems. Whitworth just signed a deal averaging around 7 mil (?) He pretty much can play every spot on that line (except C). I agree, the Bengals need an upgrade and good quality Center, they don't need to have a 6-8 million dollar center lining up to 7 million dollar guard. When neither player has ever been to a pro bowl. Just my take. It's not about the value of the center position completely, it's more about who and what else you can do. I don't see it and I hope the bengals don't see it either if the sight is 6/7 million a year for Jason Brown.[/quote] You say he's not proven, and I agree partially... he's not proven to the level of a Saturday or Birk as per Pro-Bowl nominations. Pro-Bowl nominations don't really mean that much to me, because it's controlled by fans who will vote in pieces of crap. He is also the top rated available FA center by a couple of different pundits, for whatever that is worth. He's proven that he's better than Ghiapet that's for damn sure, but then again, my still dead grandmother could do better than him. I also agree that unless he has the pedigree of a Saturday, then he's not worth the big bucks... unless you know he will be protecting the big bucks guy. It all comes down to the current market and if you think he can be the best we could get for years to come. It's also obvious that the market isn't going to drop in years to come and top of the line centers price tags will only go up. I sure as hell wouldn't want a rookie to come in and have to face Ngata, Hampton, and Rogers with Carson Palmer's ass on the line. Would you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldschooler Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 [quote][size=5][b]Ravens' Brown seeks guard's paycheck[/b][/size] [size=4][b]Team considers him a center, which pays less[/b][/size] By Jamison Hensley | jamison.hensley@baltsun.com February 25, 2009 Where Jason Brown ends up in free agency could be determined by where he lines up on the field. It is believed the Ravens want to pay Brown as a center while the versatile offensive lineman is seeking to be paid as a guard. The difference in positions could be $2million per season, which might push Brown to test the free-agent market Friday. It has been heavily rumored the Miami Dolphins are interested in Brown if he becomes available. "We believe Jason Brown is a great offensive lineman," said Harold Lewis, Brown's agent, who declined to talk specifically about the negotiations. "Whether he plays center for the Ravens or guard for another team in the NFL, he's an offensive lineman and he's going to be paid as an offensive lineman. I don't think he has to be categorized. "When you have that versatility, you should get rewarded for it, and not which is the lower of the two." Lewis, also the agent for linebacker Bart Scott, said Monday that a deal for one of his players could get done before free agency begins. Indications from a source with knowledge of the negotiations said yesterday that the Ravens and Scott are closing in on a deal that could be done this week. When asked last night whether he were close to a deal with Scott, Ravens general manager Ozzie Newsome said: "I wouldn't say that. Nothing is imminent. We've made progress on several fronts, and we're moving in the right direction." Brown, a 2005 fourth-round pick, moved into the starting lineup in 2006 when he replaced injured Edwin Mulitalo. He started 28straight games at guard, forming a strong left side with Pro Bowl tackle Jonathan Ogden. When the Ravens shuffled their offensive line last season, Brown shifted to center, where he played all 16 games. The team envisions Brown as its long-term center and is unlikely to pay him as a guard because it has three starter-quality ones on the roster (Ben Grubbs, Marshal Yanda and Chris Chester). But if Brown reaches free agency, other teams could see him more as a guard than a center. Besides the Dolphins, the Jacksonville Jaguars and Washington Redskins are expected to be interested. When asked about Brown at the NFL combine last weekend, Newsome talked about the possibility of losing players in free agency. "My philosophy has always been right player, right price," Newsome said. "We do a good job of putting a value on what we think that player is worth for us. I always tell the players ... if there is a chance for them to go out and help their families, then go do it." Brown, 25, is generally considered the top offensive lineman headed to free agency. "I can tell you right now that I'm confident that there will be teams that will be looking at Jason as a guard and there will be teams that will be looking at him as a center," Lewis said. The less lucrative position is center. The highest-paid center in the NFL is the Tampa Bay Buccaneers' Jeff Faine, whose contract pays $6.25 million per season. He received a $12 million signing bonus last season on a contract that runs through 2013. The Chicago Bears' Olin Kreutz and Dallas Cowboys' Andre Gurode, both of whom signed their deals in 2007, are the next two highest-paid centers. Kreutz's deal averages $5.8 million a season, and Gurode's contract averages $5 million. The price goes up for guards in free agency. Last season, Alan Faneca signed a four-year contract with the New York Jets that averages $8 million per season. Two years ago, a handful of guards (Eric Steinbach, Derrick Dockery, Leonard Davis and Kris Dielman) received deals worth about $7 million a season. Of this group, only Dielman has appeared in multiple Pro Bowls. The difference in pay is surprising, because centers generally have more responsibilities than guards. Centers make the calls for the line and need to help out on both sides. "[Center is] the quarterback of the offensive line," Lewis said. "I think there should be a premium on that."[/quote] [url="http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/football/bal-sp.ravens25feb25,0,5792694.story"]http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/footbal...0,5792694.story[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scharm Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 [quote]I sure as hell wouldn't want a rookie to come in and have to face Ngata, Hampton, and Rogers with Carson Palmer's ass on the line. Would you?[/quote] vs having 13 mil a year tied up into a guard and center that are not considered among the best at their respective positions? Yes, I would. Is the AFC North the only division in the NFL that plays D-line? Clearly these rookie Centers are going to be drafted and a number of them are going to be asked to play as rookies. [quote]Pro-Bowl nominations don't really mean that much to me, because it's controlled by fans who will vote in pieces of crap. He is also the top rated available FA center by a couple of different pundits, for whatever that is worth.[/quote] If you are going to question the Pro Bowl selection process, how can you put faith in pundits rankings of FAs? [quote]He's proven that he's better than Ghiapet that's for damn sure, but then again, my still dead grandmother could do better than him.[/quote] So what? I don't think I've ever claimed they don't need a center. I don't think I've ever claimed Jason Brown wouldn't be a good one to have. I question the amount people are willing to pay especially when there could be a number of starters available with more upside that will be cheaper available during the draft. [quote]It all comes down to the current market and if you think he can be the best we could get for years to come. It's also obvious that the market isn't going to drop in years to come and top of the line centers price tags will only go up.[/quote] No. This is incorrect. It's bullshit. Everyone was quick to point to Rich Brahm. Who was Rich Brahm? He wasn't anything near the best or even among the next level. He was a solid starter to Fringe Starter. You don't need to dump 6/7 million a year into your center to have a capable O-Line. If everyone is so concerned with the protection of Palmer the Tackles are more important and should be getting that money if they are throwing it around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 It isnt just about protecting Palmer on the edges, its about protecting the pocket at the point of attack so that he can step up into his throws and get the accuracy he hasnt had since Braham left back. That would be HUGE to the passing game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USN Bengal Posted February 25, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 [quote name='scharm' post='749300' date='Feb 25 2009, 12:16 PM']vs having 13 mil a year tied up into a guard and center that are not considered among the best at their respective positions? Yes, I would. [color="#FF0000"]I'd be willing to bet that if you ask Carson Palmer about who he'd rather play behind, a rookie or Brown/Saturday/Birk for 6-7 million a year, he's pick the vets every time.[/color] Is the AFC North the only division in the NFL that plays D-line? Clearly these rookie Centers are going to be drafted and a number of them are going to be asked to play as rookies. [color="#FF0000"] You put a rookie center against the stealer and rat defenses... you get Carson fucking killed.[/color] If you are going to question the Pro Bowl selection process, how can you put faith in pundits rankings of FAs? [color="#FF0000"] I didn't put any faith in the pundits rankings, as a matter of fact you might also want to take a comprehension class scharm, as I CLEARLY stated that the Pro-Bowl selection is crap and I questioned the worth of the pundits input.[/color] So what? I don't think I've ever claimed they don't need a center. I don't think I've ever claimed Jason Brown wouldn't be a good one to have. I question the amount people are willing to pay especially when there could be a number of starters available with more upside that will be cheaper available during the draft. [color="#FF0000"]Never said you did claim that we didn't need a center, or that you said Brown wouldn't be good to have... where is this defensive posture coming from? I FULLY comprehended your post about questioning the money people are talking about throwing at a vet center. Get a grip.[/color] No. This is incorrect. It's bullshit. Everyone was quick to point to Rich Brahm. Who was Rich Brahm? He wasn't anything near the best or even among the next level. He was a solid starter to Fringe Starter. You don't need to dump 6/7 million a year into your center to have a capable O-Line. If everyone is so concerned with the protection of Palmer the Tackles are more important and should be getting that money if they are throwing it around. [color="#FF0000"]Tackles are more important? Do the tackles call out the protection scheme? No. Braham called out the scheme and kept Carson protected, he RAN the O-line, as a good quality center should. So instead of trying to fix the problem LONG TERM, you want to put an UNPROVEN BAND-AID on the center position and put Carson Palmer and the running game at risk behind a rookie. Makes a shitload of sense... if you're brain dead.[/color][/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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