Robinson vs. Cook

[Madieu Superstar]

Just wondering if anyone tracked which drives Cook played vs. which ones Robinson played. I'm interested in how the drives played out in terms of Dalton's numbers, yards per carry, whether we scored, number of hurries, etc. If anyone has this, it would be much appreciated.

[Bengals1181]

in an article earlier, Hobson said they rotated every 2 series.


So, assuming that's right (which it isn't because the snap counts don't line up, lol):

Robinson

5 plays, TD - Cincy 30
7 plays, FG - Dallas 47
12 plays, FG - Cincy 23
5 plays, FG - Cincy 48
5 plays, punt - Cincy 20

Cook

4 plays, INT - Cincy 25
11 plays, FG - Cincy 19
5 plays, punt - Cincy 34
5 plays, punt (this included BJGE's big gainer) - Cincy 6



How much of the good play, or bad play, had to do with each, obvious takes more analysis. Robinson's drives resulted in more scores, but also typically started with much better field position.

Cook had a few mistakes, I don't remember any on Robinson.

[SocalBengalEd]

Edge Robinson. If it ain't broke why fix it. Why rush Cook back he was average to begin with. I thought the starting five were playing great before yesterday.

[Madieu Superstar]

Thanks for the reply, I wish CincyJungle would look at this more in-depth this week. Just from lazily looking, I though Robinson was playing very well yesterday though. Didn't notice Cook except for the penalties.

[gatorclaws]

Sometimes a line can be more than the sum of its parts. Perhaps Cook is better than Robinson when you look at them individually, but Robinson meshes better with the other lineman. Or perhaps Cook was just too rusty.

[Jason]

[quote name='SocalBengalEd' timestamp='1355171165' post='1191411']
Edge Robinson. If it ain't broke why fix it. Why rush Cook back he was average to begin with. I thought the starting five were playing great before yesterday.
[/quote]

Cook is better than average. He was surrounded by crap the past 2 years. He has the experience and smarts to handle the Pittsburgh and Baltimore defenses. They wanted to get him worked in before those games.

[BigDawgBengal]

I was hoping Cook would get in about 15 plays not 31. He needed to get in there and get the rust off and get back in the flow of the game. He had not played a snap all regular season and I would not want a center to have to come into a game at a crucial moment that has not had a meaningful snap since last January.

[|kennethmw|]

[quote name='Jason' timestamp='1355174528' post='1191437']
Cook is better than average. He was surrounded by crap the past 2 years. He has the experience and smarts to handle the Pittsburgh and Baltimore defenses. They wanted to get him worked in before those games.
[/quote]

I agree with you here, and you just can't get a guy up to speed now a days in just practice. With the new CBA, you can hardly hit at all and Lineman need that contact. I would expect to see something similar Thursday night.

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='BigDawgBengal' timestamp='1355178659' post='1191452']
I was hoping Cook would get in about 15 plays not 31. He needed to get in there and get the rust off and get back in the flow of the game. He had not played a snap all regular season and I would not want a center to have to come into a game at a crucial moment that has not had a meaningful snap since last January.
[/quote]

Yea 15 (25%) is what I was thinking too.

[Bengals1181]

[b] Bengals Center of Attention: Kyle Cook and Trevor Robinson[/b]






The Bengals were riding high heading into last week’s match with the Cowboys because a four-game win streak and suddenly finding a way to run the ball effectively. Many pointed to the only roster change; undrafted rookie Trevor Robinson replacing Jeff Faine at center. The rookie from Notre Dame stepped in like a seasoned veteran and provided some athleticism and cohesion in the interior of the offensive line. Kyle Cook was recovering from a preseason ankle injury and was eventually going reclaim his starting job, but how do you go about it? Robinson wasn’t hurting the team and Cook’s recovery status had questions of its own. Marvin Lewis answered that question by splitting the reps on Sunday with 30-snaps apiece. I re-watched and graded every snap of each center to see if we could find trends and possibly a direction to point a finger for Sunday’s lack of offense.



[color=#ff0000][b][i]Kyle Cook[/i][/b] [/color]


[b][i]Totals[/i][/b]

[b][i]Trevor Robinson[/i][/b]


[b][i]Totals[/i][/b]
[color=#ff0000]Total Snaps
[b]30[/b] [/color]
Total Snaps
[b]30[/b]
[color=#ff0000]Run Block Plays
[b]11[/b] [/color]
Run Block Plays
[b]9[/b]
[color=#ff0000]Pass Block Plays
[b]19[/b] [/color]
Pass Block Plays
[b]21[/b]
[b]Run[/b]
[b]Pass[/b]



[b]Run[/b]
[b]Pass[/b]

[color=#b22222]Help/Double Team
5
11
[b]16[/b] [/color]
Help/Double Team
1
11
[b]12[/b]
[color=#ff0000]One-on-one Blocks
6
8
[b]14[/b] [/color]
One-on-one Blocks
7
11
[b]18[/b]
[color=#ff0000]Winning Blocks
4
2
[b]6[/b] [/color]
Winning Blocks
3
3
[b]6[/b]
[color=#ff0000]Losing Blocks
0
1
[b]1[/b] [/color]
Losing Blocks
0
1
[b]1[/b]
[color=#ff0000]Neutral Blocks
6
6
[b]12[/b] [/color]
Neutral Blocks
4
6
[b]10[/b]
[color=#ff0000]No Contest*
1
10
[b]11[/b] [/color]
No Contest*
0
13
[b]13[/b]
[i]*No Contest: Didn't need to block anybody or pass was too quick.[/i]
[b] What Does This Show Us?[/b]

Looking at the numbers, they're very similar. Both Cook and Robinson were outmatched on only one pass play and each had six-winning blocks. Kyle Cook was called for a false start and a bogus holding call and Trevor Robinson got away with two holds that weren't called; one caused the Cowboys Defensive Coordinator to run on the field. I found it interesting that Kyle Cook was asked to work in tandem with his guards in the run game more than Robinson was. Cook looked good doing it and getting to the 2nd level on many zone runs. Because neither player really stood out when I graded each play, I decided to chart the success of the Bengals offensive while each player was in the game.
[color=#ff0000][b]Kyle Cook[/b]
[b]Totals[/b] [/color]
[b]Trevor Robinson[/b]
[b]Totals[/b]
[color=#ff0000]RB Carries
11 [/color]
RB Carries
8
[color=#ff0000]Rush Yards
74 [/color]
Rush Yards
40*
[color=#ff0000]Average
6.7 [/color]
Average
5.0
[color=#ff0000]Pass Attempts
17 [/color]
Pass Attempts
20
[color=#ff0000]Completions
10 (58.8%) [/color]
Completions
11 (55.0%)
[color=#ff0000]Hurries/Hits
4 [/color]
Hurries/Hits
5
[color=#ff0000]Sacks
2 [/color]
Sacks
1
[i]* Marvin Jones gained 37-yards on a reverse; would make it 9-carries for 77-yards (8.5)[/i]
[b] [/b]

[b] The Picture Gets Clearer. Or Does it?[/b]

I know what you're thinking - It seemed like when Kyle Cook was in the game, the Bengals offense wasn't hitting on all cylinders. That's what I thought when I watched it live also. In reality, the offense was just fine, if not better with Kyle Cook at center. Cincinnati averaged 1.7 yards more per run and completed 3.8 percent more of their passes with the veteran with their veteran center. Cook's unit did allow one more sack, but it could be attributed to Dalton more than the offensive line. Now, you could add that Marvin Jones' long reverse to Trevor Robinson's stats because he was on the field, but I was more looking at the traditional running game. It's also worth noting that all of Brian Leonard's carries came when Kyle Cook was in the game.
This game comes down to winning, losing and scoring points. Trevor Robinson's offense scored 16 of the team's 19 points on Sunday. The offense wasn't forced to punt or turn the ball over during Robinson's stint whereas Kyle Cook's offense punted twice and will be charged with Dalton's big interception.
[b] The Eye-Test[/b]

When the numbers end up being close without providing a clear-cut winner, you must trust what your eyes tell you. I see Robinson as an athletic upgrade; he's smoother, quicker, and more flexible than Cook. What I like about Cook is his toughness, fight and veteran tricks that help him win. There were a few plays where the veteran center is the last guy wrestling and making sure his defender isn't getting off the ground. To my surprise, Robinson seemed more aware of his surroundings and the game seemed slower to him; he looks like a veteran. How rusty was Cook? A few of his struggles could just be him adjusting to game-speed again. I think we'll need another week to know for sure.
[b] Breaking Down a Bengals Play[/b]

I read through the comments here on Cincy Jungle and noticed a couple people giving Kyle Cook a sack on a particular fourth quarter play. I went back to look again because I didn't initially think that was Cook's fault. Here's what happened:
[img]http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/1859555/Cook_2_Jet_medium.jpg[/img]
The Bengals come out with three-wide with the running back and tight end split out, leaving an empty backfield. Dallas counters with a 1-4-6 Nickel package (1-DL, 4-LBs, 6-DBs), but that’s meant to confuse Cincinnati. Take a look at picture No.1 again and you’ll see it’s basically a 4-3 defense after you identify the "Mike" (Middle LB). I put a (light blue) box around which defenders would be considered lineman/rushers. Then I circled each LB to show how the offense would designate them. Once that’s finished, the offense can go through with their protection. On this play, its "2 Jet" protection, a staple of the west coast offense. This gives the Bengals six-blockers (Including Brian Leonard) and their assignment is to block/slide towards the Weak-side LB (Circled in Yellow).
After the snap, Cook raises his head and looks/checks the WLB; he seems to be in coverage. Cook then snaps his head to the MLB; coverage again. With his responsibilities to block left, he checks that side again. This time, you’ll see in picture No.5, DeMarcus Ware is starting to loop behind the DT with the intentions of finding an open gap between Boling and Cook.
By this time, Kevin Zeitler is getting his lunch money taken on a very nice swim move by Anthony Spencer and it’s all over for Andy Dalton. It looks like the receivers were just starting to come free, but they needed another second of protection. Kyle Cook could’ve played it better by keeping that right arm extended/feeling for Zeitler, but in the end, the rookie RG needs to play that much better. Look how flat-footed he is in picture No.2 and how he’s lunging in picture No.4; you won’t win many one-on-one battles like that.

[url="http://www.cincyjungle.com/2012/12/12/3753536/bengals-center-of-attention-kyle-cook-and-trevor-robinson-cincinnati"]http://www.cincyjung...nson-cincinnati[/url]

[turningpoint]

Well Smith looks really good in that play, so glad the RT is finally not an issue.

[alleycat]

Wait, this CincyJungle guy is throwing out the Marvin Jones reverse for Robinson's statistics? A little bias, maybe?

I get that long runs skew stats, so why not throw out the long run BJGE had when cook was in? Then how do they look?

Cooks 74-38 (long run) = 36, or 3.6/run on 10 carries, versus Robinson's 5.0. Now that's comparing Apples to Apples (as much as possible with this sort of thing)...

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='alleycat' timestamp='1355340740' post='1192025']
Wait, this CincyJungle guy is throwing out the Marvin Jones reverse for Robinson's statistics? A little bias, maybe?
[/quote]

he said he only counted traditional running plays by the backs.


I don't know the guy, so I don't know what biases he has, but he says in the article he likes robinson more, so I doubt he has a bias towards Cook.

[alleycat]

[quote name='Bengals1181' timestamp='1355340832' post='1192026']
he said he only counted traditional running plays by the backs.


I don't know the guy, so I don't know what biases he has, but he says in the article he likes robinson more, so I doubt he has a bias towards Cook.
[/quote]

I didn't mean it in favoritism terms, just statistical bias. As I mentioned in the edited portion at the end of my post, it's pretty hard to get this sort of thing right.

[scharm]

I appreciate the effort to grade the performance. I love to hear good things about another young undrafted player. However.....

The writing is on the wall, IMO. The spliting of the snaps points to the job landing back with Kyle in short order. Now maybe it doesn't stay that way in the offseason or next season.

I'm just saying coaches decisions tell truth and it looks a pure attempt to get Kyle back in the lineup full time as soon as possible.

[T-Dub]

Yeah, better do it again tomorrow night so they have a clearer picture.

[Squirrlnutz]

Pretty sure the same people who have marveled at Robinson's job thus far and are convinced he should take every snap at C the rest of the year are the same people who would have the most to bitch about if we gave up 6 sacks to the Steelers and blew a shot at the playoffs.

I'm not sure i would have given Cook as many snaps as they did, but I still believe its in the team's best interest to have him back at C full time by the PIT game.

[bubba]

[quote name='T-Dub' timestamp='1355342909' post='1192042']
Yeah, better do it again tomorrow night so they have a clearer picture.


[/quote]
Ugh ! Unfortunately they will.

[T-Dub]

Pretty sure pulling your starting center during a win streak for someone that hasn't played all year because you're scared he can't handle the Ravens/Steelers is the worst possible message you could send your team.

[alleycat]

[quote name='T-Dub' timestamp='1355343206' post='1192045']
Pretty sure pulling your starting center during a win streak for someone that hasn't played all year because you're scared he can't handle the Ravens/Steelers is the worst possible message you could send your team.
[/quote]
+1
The other worst message is that you don't value performance above all else. Playing it safe with vets is one thing, but burying the talent on your team in service of that credo is another.

Look at our WR situation this year. Of all the receivers in camp (other than AJ and Hawkins), who was really exciting/intriguing? Sanu and Marvin Jones. But we were going to stick with our two vets (never mind that NEITHER had really had much regular season WR experience). The new guys get in half way through the season, and immediately flash when they do. Sure, they've made some mistakes, but the other guys can't even sniff the field - and one of them was cut!

Teams like the Steelers and Pats excel because they are plugging in new talent, regardless of experience. Guys like Mike Wallace and Antonio Brown made pretty instant impacts, but they would have been riding the pine here behind Armon Binns and Brandon Tate until they "paid their dues.," or some other old-fashioned logic.

Again, I say, if you aren't going to keep Robinson in and/or groom him to be your Starter, draft a center with one of the first two picks because Kyle Cook has already shown that he is below average, and O-Line's (along with the D), win Superbowls.

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='alleycat' timestamp='1355344235' post='1192053']

Look at our WR situation this year. Of all the receivers in camp (other than AJ and Hawkins), who was really exciting/intriguing? Sanu and Marvin Jones. But we were going to stick with our two vets (never mind that NEITHER had really had much regular season WR experience). The new guys get in half way through the season, and immediately flash when they do. Sure, they've made some mistakes, but the other guys can't even sniff the field - and one of them was cut!

[/quote]


poor example unless you know how they were in practice (we've heard Sanu was struggling). Sanu also wasn't anything special in the preseason and Jones success was against 3rd and 4th stringers.

[scharm]

[quote name='alleycat' timestamp='1355344235' post='1192053']

+1
The other worst message is that you don't value performance above all else. Playing it safe with vets is one thing, but burying the talent on your team in service of that credo is another.

Look at our WR situation this year. Of all the receivers in camp (other than AJ and Hawkins), who was really exciting/intriguing? Sanu and Marvin Jones. But we were going to stick with our two vets (never mind that NEITHER had really had much regular season WR experience). The new guys get in half way through the season, and immediately flash when they do. Sure, they've made some mistakes, but the other guys can't even sniff the field - and one of them was cut!

Teams like the Steelers and Pats excel because they are plugging in new talent, regardless of experience. Guys like Mike Wallace and Antonio Brown made pretty instant impacts, but they would have been riding the pine here behind Armon Binns and Brandon Tate until they "paid their dues.," or some other old-fashioned logic.

Again, I say, if you aren't going to keep Robinson in and/or groom him to be your Starter, draft a center with one of the first two picks because Kyle Cook has already shown that he is below average, and O-Line's (along with the D), win Superbowls.
[/quote]

Great. We have a hell of an O-line with Cook and/or Robinson and have a top 10 D.

Awesome.

[alleycat]

[quote name='Bengals1181' timestamp='1355344499' post='1192054']
poor example unless you know how they were in practice (we've heard Sanu was struggling). Sanu also wasn't anything special in the preseason and Jones success was against 3rd and 4th stringers.
[/quote]
So if a guy is flashing against 3rd and 4th stingers, and that isn't enough to bump him up, how do you ever find out?

I've been clamoring for us to use Peerman for years. He was crushing those 3rd and 4th stringers, but could never see the field - despite rather pedestrian performances from other RB's. Someone gets hurt, he FINALLY gets his chance, and he flashes.

[alleycat]

[quote name='scharm' timestamp='1355344689' post='1192058']
Great. We have a hell of an O-line with Cook and/or Robinson and have a top 10 D.

Awesome.
[/quote]

You build a line from the inside out. When the weak link of your O-Line is the center, you have a problem. Other than that, I'll grant you, we have a pretty damn fine O-Line, and I'd bet we'd instantly be top 3 if we had the likes of a Pouncey at Center.

[Squirrlnutz]

4 game winning streak. Nothing to do with our opponents, nothing to do with Dalton's decision making improving, nothing to do with Sanu emerging for 3 games to settle the #2 WR spot, nothing to do with the D gel-ing, contesting passes more than before, plugging holes etc.

Instead, everything to do with the center. Its fucking magic and we better not change it.