Esiason On Dalton

[fluhartz]

[quote name='Squirrlnutz' timestamp='1359567435' post='1211919']
We're running a Mickey mouse offense because we still can't run the ball efficiently on the ground, our OC thinks he's still in the arena league, our protection in the pocket is still not as good as it needs to be, our playmakers single handedly kill drives with drops, and we made a 5' 6" CFL cast off the focal point of our offense for too long...and after all that our QB needs to get better.

Since CO legalized weed, Go's done lost his mind.

During our most competent stretch of football we ran the ball effectively and efficiently, and our offense played in rhythm as our second option in the passing game (Sanu) was where he was supposed to be and made important conversions when AJ was taken out of the play. During all the other games we didn't run effectively and our 2nd WR was no where to be found and when he did make an appearance he was often watching a DB run back an INT because he wasn't in the correct spot.

[b]For someone who lumped so much blame for a QBs struggles on his WRs back in 2010...I'm stunned that you don't seem to think it played a role in Andy "struggling" to the tune of two of the best statistical seasons to start a career.[/b]

...or perhaps I'm not stunned and your agenda is just more clear.
[/quote]


Only when it helps their side of the argument.

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1359570003' post='1211939']
[b]To show Daton's not as bad as some make him out to be[/b]. I dont have an issue with that, I have an issue with the putting him on the same level as the top guys for any stat, same as I have issue with those who use the stats he's at the bottom of the league in to say he is that bad, and I've repeatadly said I dont think he is bad as some make him out to be, nor is he as good. He's middle of the pack. Both sides in this argument are equally annoying.
[/quote]

that wasn't it at all.

The reason he chose that stretch of 4 games was that it was pretty much the only 4 games of the season that the offense had a legitimate #2 WR option and a credible running game. When Dalton had both of those things, things we can all agree any young quarterback needs, he played the best football of his career. Every young QB needs a good supporting cast, and every QB outside of 4-5 (most of whom will be in the HOF) needs a balanced running game as a complement.

That was the point, and why those 4 games were "cherry-picked." It wasn't just about defending Dalton. It was pointing out how he played when he had a credible cast around him.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Bengals1181' timestamp='1359570226' post='1211941']
that wasn't it at all.

The reason he chose that stretch of 4 games was that it was pretty much the only 4 games of the season that the offense had a legitimate #2 WR option and a credible running game. When Dalton had both of those things, things we can all agree any young quarterback needs, he played the best football of his career.

That was the point, any why those 4 games were "cherry-picked."
[/quote]

and that's fine and I've said repeatadlly that next year is the year he should have both of those for 16 games and that we should wait and see till next year, but that next year there should be [b]NO EXCUSES[/b] for him, but for both sides of this argument, people need to slow down on putting him at top 6, or bottom 6.

[fluhartz]

[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1359570003' post='1211939']


To show Daton's not as bad as some make him out to be. I dont have an issue with that, I have an issue with the putting him on the same level as the top guys for any stat, same as I have issue with those who use the stats he's at the bottom of the league in to say he is that bad, and I've repeatadly said I dont think he is bad as some make him out to be, nor is he as good. He's middle of the pack. Both sides in this argument are equally annoying.
[/quote]

I do think he is a middle of the road QB now.. He is also only going in to his 3rd year. He can grow a lot..

The only reason I defend him so much, is because of all of the "oh fuck.. ANDY is the suck", "can't fucking throw it five yards" , "we need a new QB with a rocket laser arm" bullshit you read on here every day...
It makes me tired...

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1359570386' post='1211943']
and that's fine and I've said repeatadlly that next year is the year he should have both of those for 16 games and that we should wait and see till next year, but that next year there should be [b]NO EXCUSES[/b] for him, but for both sides of this argument, people need to slow down on putting him at top 6, or bottom 6.
[/quote]

no one has him in the top 6 or the bottom 6. JBJV has made it clear multiple times what he meant by the "top 6" comment, and while I wouldn't have put it in those words, you either know what he meant and are ignoring it, or are completing missing the point.

[EnglishBengal]

I agree with Boomer. This is what I've being thinking all along - he does care and he's not screwing around. This is true, and this is why I want Dalton as our QB. Palmer was selfish and too laid back at times. Give Dalton the ammo (weapons) and this conversation will null and void.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='fluhartz' timestamp='1359570524' post='1211944']
I do think he is a middle of the road QB now.. He is also only going in to his 3rd year. He can grow a lot..

The only reason I defend him so much, is because of all of the "oh fuck.. ANDY is the suck", "can't fucking throw it five yards" , "we need a new QB with a rocket laser arm" bullshit you read on here every day...
It makes me tired...
[/quote]

We see equal amounts of He's the one of the only QBs to throw so many TDs in the 1st 2 years, sillyness too.

Both sides need to calm down.

[JBandJoeyV]

[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1359570386' post='1211943']


and that's fine and I've said repeatadlly that next year is the year he should have both of those for 16 games and that we should wait and see till next year, but that next year there should be [b]NO EXCUSES[/b] for him, but for both sides of this argument, people need to slow down on putting him at top 6, or bottom 6.
[/quote]

Once again you are acting like I said he was a top 6 qb. Never said that nor would I ever at this point.

I said he has played stretches of football or at least a stretch where he has shown the potential of a top qb. He has the ability but obviously needs to improve on the consistency and what not.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Bengals1181' timestamp='1359570529' post='1211945']
no one has him in the top 6 or the bottom 6. JBJV has made it clear multiple times what he meant by the "top 6" comment, and while I wouldn't have put it in those words, you either know what he meant and are ignoring it, or are completing missing the point.
[/quote]

I know what he meant, and I'm saying (again) the words "top 6" shouldnt have been typed.

[quote name='JBandJoeyV' timestamp='1359570924' post='1211948']
Once again you are acting like I said he was a top 6 qb. Never said that nor would I ever at this point.

I said he has played stretches of football or at least a stretch where he has shown the potential of a top qb. He has the ability but obviously needs to improve on the consistency and what not.
[/quote]
[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1359570941' post='1211949']
I know what he meant, and I'm saying (again) the words "top 6" shouldnt have been typed.
[/quote]

[JBandJoeyV]

[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1359570981' post='1211949']


I know what he meant, and I'm saying (again) the words "top 6" shouldnt have been typed.
[/quote]

But over and over you are inferring that I meant he was a top 6 qb. You are taking two words and completely taking them out of context.

Whatever I'm done with this argument.

[bubba]

How many playoff games did big tall strong armed Carson Palmer win for us ?

[JBandJoeyV]

[quote name='bubba' timestamp='1359571334' post='1211952']
How many playoff games did big tall strong armed Carson Palmer win for us ?
[/quote]

8 and a Super Bowl.

Oh wait that was in my madden 2005 game...

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='JBandJoeyV' timestamp='1359571040' post='1211951']
But over and over you are inferring that I meant he was a top 6 qb. You are taking two words and completely taking them out of context.

Whatever I'm done with this argument.
[/quote]

Not what I'm saying, I'm saying just stay away from those words untill he earns it.

[quote name='bubba' timestamp='1359571334' post='1211952']
How many playoff games did big tall strong armed Carson Palmer win for us ?
[/quote]

At this point the same as Dalton has.

[Actium]

[quote name='Dalton4HOF' timestamp='1359564133' post='1211904']
when were we supposed to start caring what Esiason had to say?
[/quote]

Like we do with most talking heads, whenever they say something we happen to agree with.

(Caring to be discarded once opinions clash on another issue)

[Jason]

[quote name='Dalton4HOF' timestamp='1359565453' post='1211909']
putting up "veteran numbers"(whatever the fuck thats supposed to mean, I'll take luck, rg3, wilson numbers all day everyday) with pro bowlers all around you is one thing.

being a decent QB who is capable of hitting receivers in stride on deep routes is another.

[b]how can you ignore the mickey mouse offense we are running[/b] because of his down field accuracy problems? how many wide open TD passes have to sail over greens head or out of bounds forcing the defense into tough spots(you know, being top 3 in points given up the last 15 games of the season) until fans realize back pendling into the palyoffs to get embrarrassed over and over isnt due to "rookie learning" or "a sophmore slump"... we drafted the QB who awas arleady smart enough to play NOW, but lacked the physical ability. luck, rg3, and wilson made rookie mistakes, dalton hasnt really, but those other three have double the ability as football players, and its brutally obvious. which is why they were mostly high picks, if dalton has the ability of those guys he would have been a top 5 1st round pick.

the QB position is holding back the offense. even at the shitty pro bowl, QB's who had a week to work on plays were able to hit green in stride, its sad to watch guys who never played with him before having a better more accurate connection.

dalton isnt getting any taller faster or stronger.. he is what he is.. we play a safe, conservative passing game, relying on YAC from receivers to make plays.

dalton is ranked 22nd in the league in QBR for a reason. he isnt doing anything special in the passing game.

im not sure what the point of given dalton credit for grsham being #1 in TE YAC is, or giving him credit for the amazing 58 yard runs after a 3 yard screen pass that hawkins had..

sounds like a LONG reach to justify liking a QB to me. andy dalton is 26th in average air yards per pass attempt. meaning only the shitty of shittiest QB's threw the ball fewer yards in the air than he did..wanna see that list?


B.Weeden
J.Locker
M.Hasselbeck
C.Ponder MIN
C.Henne JAX
K.Kolb ARZ
B.Gabbert
M.Cassel KC
M.Sanchez NYJ
B.Quinn KC 10
J.Skelton ARZ
R.Lindley ARZ

glad he could edge out those guys.. and none of those guys have Aj green or Gresham.. and certainly NONE of them had the 2nd best drive starting position given to them by the defense like dalton did.

if Dalton had the same stats as he does with the 2005 bengals defense and the 2010 WR's it would be solid. but he has all of the help around him a QB could ask for. a top 5 defense, and pro bowl receiving talent. and the line isnt getting him killed like the bears, etc..

i cant wait to go 9-7 and get destroyed in the playoffs again next year!!!!1111
[/quote]

The 49ers used our mickey mouse offense to win 5 super bowls. Joe Montana didn't exactly have a canon.

The WCO has won several championships.

[|SF2|]

I have to admit, watching Kapernick, RGIII and Wilson play is very entertaining. Watching the Bengals offense the last 5 years has been mostly boring (Carson elbow injury).

Sure, the two or three deep passes to Green a game perk me up some but I rarely get the sense that our offense is just picking a team apart like you see many times with Manning, Rodgers, Brees and Brady.

I like Andy but the truth is he reminds me very much of Jon Kitna quite a bit of the time. Passes a bit behind players, overthrowing wide open receivers, etc.. You can bash Carson all you want but in 2005, he tore teams apart in many games.

Some of it is certainly on Gruden and Gresham had quite a few drops but we would go 3 or 4 straight series in many games and the O looked completely inept. In particular, the mostly horrible 3rd quarters our offense played really bothered me. Why did this team suck so bad in the 3rd quarter?

The Dallas game in particular was brutal. You could tell by the way they were playing the last 30 minutes that Dallas had a good chance to win. The offense was completely out of sync, Dalton got sacked what 4 or 5 times and everyone looked like they were playing in slow motion.

I guess we will have to hope that Dalton and Gruden continue to improve since that is the only option.

[|SF2|]

[quote name='Jason' timestamp='1359576449' post='1211994']
The 49ers used our mickey mouse offense to win 5 super bowls. Joe Montana didn't exactly have a canon.

The WCO has won several championships.
[/quote]

One thing you need to remember about Montana was that he was a very mobile QB. He didn't run forward much but they rolled him out to the right and left time after time during his days in SF. He was able to extend plays and Rice and Taylor were the masters of coming back for the ball when the play broke down as were the running backs. Andy pretty much stays in a stationary pocket until it breaks down.

Also, I am calling Bullshit on this being a West Coast Offense similar to the 49ers in their Heyday. SF running backs regularly amassed over 1000 yards RECEIVING for the team with Craig having a 1000 yard season all by himself once. Furthermore, anyone who lined up in the SF backfield was expected to catch the ball if necessary to include their fullback Tom Rathman who averaged over 310 yards a season over 8 years receiving. Craig averaged 63 receptions a year while there. Watters around 50.

Last year our backfield accounted for 256 yards receiving.

[JBandJoeyV]

Am I the only one that doesn't recal Andy overthrowing a bunch of wide open receivers? I remember the one from the playoff game but I Feel like people are taking memories from the last game and extrapolating it over the course of the full season.

Does anyone know if there is a way to get a video of every pass Andy made all season? Like somewhere you can download it or something without having to go through and watch every game?

I remember Andy missing passes but I don't think he missed wide open receivers as much as half of you are claiming.

[|SF2|]

[quote name='JBandJoeyV' timestamp='1359578436' post='1211999']
Am I the only one that doesn't recal Andy overthrowing a bunch of wide open receivers? I remember the one from the playoff game but I Feel like people are taking memories from the last game and extrapolating it over the course of the full season.

Does anyone know if there is a way to get a video of every pass Andy made all season? Like somewhere you can download it or something without having to go through and watch every game?

I remember Andy missing passes but I don't think he missed wide open receivers as much as half of you are claiming.
[/quote]

I know I saw plenty of passes thrown to the sideline that ended up out of bounds particularly to AJ. I don't remember the precision sideline pass being a staple of the 49ers when they ran the WCO to be honest. We don't use the RB much in the passing game either. I think this is the WCO in name only.

[JBandJoeyV]

[quote name='SF2' timestamp='1359578949' post='1212003']


I know I saw plenty of passes thrown to the sideline that ended up out of bounds particularly to AJ. I don't remember the precision sideline pass being a staple of the 49ers when they ran the WCO to be honest. We don't use the RB much in the passing game either. I think this is the WCO in name only.
[/quote]

I recal him missing green on the sidelines on deep balls several times but I don't remember aj being wide open. Those are really tough throws that even the good qbs only hit about 35 percent of the time. Obviously dalton needs to get better at that though but I think you are talking about maybe 1-2 passes a game tops.

The rest I agree with but that is due more to play calling IMO then dalton. I really hope we get a RB that can be used in the passing game that can put up like 400 yards or so receiving. That's not a ton but would really make a big difference.

[Khatmandude]

Hahaha.....now it's AJ's fault he's running too closely down the sidelines for Dalton's shitty throws ahahhahaha. I think the football field is at fault too...how can it be just 55 yds wide? That's not on Dalton, that's on the football field when he throws it out of bounds. And don't get me started on the football.

I think Jamie said it best....and I'm not afraid to admit it, both sides go too far. He's a middle of the pack at best QB right now but we all want to see him be top 6. Let's hope he can improve significantly from last year....because if you're objective about it, he needs to.

[texbengal]

[quote name='SF2' timestamp='1359576521' post='1211995']
I have to admit, watching Kapernick, RGIII and Wilson play is very entertaining. Watching the Bengals offense the last 5 years has been mostly boring (Carson elbow injury).

The Dallas game in particular was brutal. You could tell by the way they were playing the last 30 minutes that Dallas had a good chance to win. The offense was completely out of sync, Dalton got sacked what 4 or 5 times and everyone looked like they were playing in slow motion.

I guess we will have to hope that Dalton and Gruden continue to improve since that is the only option.
[/quote]

The Dallas game was brutal in the second half, but they were getting a ton of yards in the first half running the ball... And they weren't scoring in the red zone. Maybe you forgot the TD pass that AJ dropped, the catchable one that Gresham dropped in the the end zone (a play a Pro Bowl TE should make), and the other dropped passes that would have made a difference in the game as far as sustaining drives, etc. - easily catchable passes to Hawk and AJ in the second half fit that category.

Not saying Dalton doesn't have to improve - same with Gruden. But in that game, the combination of not sticking to the run game and Dalton being betrayed by Gresham, AJ, and Hawk was a huge reason they lost. At least 6 drops that I remember.

[oldschooler]

It's like fucking Ground Hog Day around here anymore.

Same shit over and over and over ...

Someone stop this fucking ride so I can get off!

First Bengals QB to lead his team to the Playoffs in back to back seasons since Ken Anderson.
30 fucking years!!!! One of 3 QBs to ever throw for 47 TDs in his first 2 seasons!!! And this was all
with a first time NFL OC, Rookie WRs, inconsistent TE, an O-line that had 3 different Centers start,
a Rookie Guard and a 2nd year Guard that was supposed to start the season on the bench!!!

You would think he was Akili Smith be reading what some of you have to say over and over and over
day after fucking day!

What the fuck is wrong with some of you people?

Fucking retarded reading this shit all the time.

Get some fucking perspective or shut the fuck up already.
My God.

[quote name='texbengal' timestamp='1359579790' post='1212010']
The Dallas game was brutal in the second half, but they were getting a ton of yards in the first half running the ball... And they weren't scoring in the red zone. Maybe you forgot the TD pass that AJ dropped, the catchable one that Gresham dropped in the the end zone (a play a Pro Bowl TE should make), and the other dropped passes that would have made a difference in the game as far as sustaining drives, etc. - easily catchable passes to Hawk and AJ in the second half fit that category.

Not saying Dalton doesn't have to improve - same with Gruden. But in that game, the combination of not sticking to the run game and Dalton being betrayed by Gresham, AJ, and Hawk was a huge reason they lost. At least 6 drops that I remember.
[/quote]

[texbengal]

[quote name='Khatmandude' timestamp='1359579784' post='1212009']
Hahaha.....now it's AJ's fault he's running too closely down the sidelines for Dalton's shitty throws ahahhahaha. I think the football field is at fault too...how can it be just 55 yds wide? That's not on Dalton, that's on the football field when he throws it out of bounds. And don't get me started on the football.

I think Jamie said it best....and I'm not afraid to admit it, both sides go too far. He's a middle of the pack at best QB right now but we all want to see him be top 6. Let's hope he can improve significantly from last year....because if you're objective about it, he needs to.
[/quote]

Yes, I think Andy is currently the middle of the pack, but let's not pretend that AJ doesn't have to improve, too. He had a pretty significant amount of drops - more than he had his first year, to my eyes - and I've heard the "he runs too close to the sidelines on long passes" comment in several different places. Gresham's drops - don't get me started, and for that matter, his ball security sucks. And let's face it, Hawkins was a total non-factor for the last 6 or so games last season.

Having Sanu back, Jones' development, AJ's improvement (hopefully Gresham's, too), and an improved interior OL - in addition to Dalton and Gruden's growth - should mean a more effective offense, and better numbers all around.

[|kennethmw|]

[quote name='oldschooler' timestamp='1359580271' post='1212012']
It's like fucking Ground Hog Day around here anymore.

Same shit over and over and over ...

Someone stop this fucking ride so I can get off!

First Bengals QB to lead his team to the Playoffs in back to back seasons since Ken Anderson.
30 fucking years!!!! One of 3 QBs to ever throw for 47 TDs in his first 2 seasons!!! And this was all
with a first time NFL OC, Rookie WRs, inconsistent TE, an O-line that had 3 different Centers start,
a Rookie Guard and a 2nd year Guard that was supposed to start the season on the bench!!!

You would think he was Akili Smith be reading what some of you have to say over and over and over
day after fucking day!

What the fuck is wrong with some of you people?

Fucking retarded reading this shit all the time.

Get some fucking perspective or shut the fuck up already.
My God.





[/quote]