The good, the bad, and the ugly - Lions

[|kennethmw|]

Dalton is an above average QB that doesn't have a very good deep ball, he's not elite and I'm not sure he ever will be.
 
The good news is I don't know that he has to be either.
 
THAT is the truth of the matter.
 
To paraphrase what the kids say these days... No Homer

He doesn't have a good deep ball except when he throws one. Stafford, he of incredible arm, had a number of shit passes trying to throw it long today. He also hit on a couple. But, when you're bitching about a couple of throws because Gannon told you to, and your QB has a 130+ rating, aren't you just bitching to be a bitch?

[Bengals1181]

Dalton had amazing touch on his passes today

 

 

IMO that's part of what separates his short/intermediate from his deep passes.  He doesn't have the same touch on his deep passes.

 

The two touch passes he had to Gresham down the field today?  They should be beating teams over the head with those plays.  Go routes to the TE's who catch the ball over defenders who haven't turned around for the ball because they're just trying to keep up with our athletic TE's. 

 

Also, I would almost start going to exclusive backshoulder throws on the deep passes, ala Eifert's TD's.  Don't always have to throw it in stride (its nice though).  Backshoulder and jumpballs can be just as good.  

 

Most of Dalton's issues deep isn't a lack of arm strength, but rather throwing it too late.  With Eifert and Green and Gresham, he can afford to throw it and trust his guys will come down with it via jump ball or backshoulder throw.  

[oldschooler]

Andy Dalton reading this thread ... 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"How's my ass taste bitches!!!"

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*Have to remind myself not to post any gifs of Hitler dancing*

[Jamie_B]

He doesn't have a good deep ball except when he throws one. Stafford, he of incredible arm, had a number of shit passes trying to throw it long today. He also hit on a couple. But, when you're bitching about a couple of throws because Gannon told you to, and your QB has a 130+ rating, aren't you just bitching to be a bitch?

 

He threw more than one today, none of them were "good" one AJ came back on and got a TD so, by that measure I guess YOU could say it was "good" (the score yes, the pass 'meh)

 

I DGAF about what Gannon's opinion is. I saw the passes with my own two eyes.

 

Come on Kenneth don't be THAT guy.

[JC]

In todays age, you don't have to be able to always hit the long ball.  Peyton has one of the quickest release times in all of the NFL and his offense is playing at a historic place.  Throwing your receiver into space is much more important in this day of age where the NFL is turning into a spread offense.  Having a respectable deep ball helps, but there isn't a QB in the league thats going to hit on all these deep passes.  The league is too fast.

 

Could he use some work in it?  Probably.  But he sure as hell hit on a couple nice ones today.  The Eifert pass might have been one of the prettiest deep balls all season in the NFL.

[|Elflocko|]

Andy Dalton reading this thread ... 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"How's my ass taste bitches!!!"

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*Have to remind myself not to post any gifs of Hitler dancing*

 

:lmao:

[Jamie_B]

 

 

IMO that's part of what separates his short/intermediate from his deep passes.  He doesn't have the same touch on his deep passes.

 

The two touch passes he had to Gresham down the field today?  They should be beating teams over the head with those plays.  Go routes to the TE's who catch the ball over defenders who haven't turned around for the ball because they're just trying to keep up with our athletic TE's. 

 

Also, I would almost start going to exclusive backshoulder throws on the deep passes, ala Eifert's TD's.  Don't always have to throw it in stride (its nice though).  Backshoulder and jumpballs can be just as good.  

 

Most of Dalton's issues deep isn't a lack of arm strength, but rather throwing it too late.  With Eifert and Green and Gresham, he can afford to throw it and trust his guys will come down with it via jump ball or backshoulder throw.  

 

 

I was with you till the last bit, I do think the arm strength thing is missing.

 

Rest of the post is spot on though. I'd love some back shoulder or jump balls.

[Bengals1181]

In todays age, you don't have to be able to always hit the long ball.  Peyton has one of the quickest release times in all of the NFL and his offense is playing at a historic place.  Throwing your receiver into space is much more important in this day of age where the NFL is turning into a spread offense.  Having a respectable deep ball helps, but there isn't a QB in the league thats going to hit on all these deep passes.  The league is too fast.

 

Could he use some work in it?  Probably.  But he sure as hell hit on a couple nice ones today.  The Eifert pass might have been one of the prettiest deep balls all season in the NFL.

 

 

 

:41:

[Oldcat]

In todays age, you don't have to be able to always hit the long ball.  Peyton has one of the quickest release times in all of the NFL and his offense is playing at a historic place.  Throwing your receiver into space is much more important in this day of age where the NFL is turning into a spread offense.  Having a respectable deep ball helps, but there isn't a QB in the league thats going to hit on all these deep passes.  The league is too fast.

 

Could he use some work in it?  Probably.  But he sure as hell hit on a couple nice ones today.  The Eifert pass might have been one of the prettiest deep balls all season in the NFL.

 

Doesn't fit the stereotype, so forget you ever saw that one.

[Orange 'n Black]

 

He threw more than one today, none of them were "good" one AJ came back on and got a TD so, by that measure I guess YOU could say it was "good" (the score yes, the pass 'meh)

 

I DGAF about what Gannon's opinion is. I saw the passes with my own two eyes.

 

Come on Kenneth don't be THAT guy.

 

The TDs to Jones and Eifert were MONEY. 

 

Are we really gonna circlejerk on how good our guy is on a prayer chuck 50 yards downfield?

[JBandJoeyV]

In todays age, you don't have to be able to always hit the long ball.  Peyton has one of the quickest release times in all of the NFL and his offense is playing at a historic place.  Throwing your receiver into space is much more important in this day of age where the NFL is turning into a spread offense.  Having a respectable deep ball helps, but there isn't a QB in the league thats going to hit on all these deep passes.  The league is too fast.

 

Could he use some work in it?  Probably.  But he sure as hell hit on a couple nice ones today.  The Eifert pass might have been one of the prettiest deep balls all season in the NFL.

 

good post and i agree with all of it.

 

I think Daltons is good enough that you have to respect it. Better yet, AJ green is so good you have to respect it no matter who is back there at QB.

 

These days though, qbs live and die by the short to medium length passes, not the deep ball. And today Dalton did that almost to perfection.

 

Ive seen him hit the deep ball enough that I know he can do it. Hopefully he can improve on it as the season goes and he can start to get closer to that elite range. Right now Id say hes pretty darn good.

[Bengals1181]

 

 

I was with you till the last bit, I do think the arm strength thing is missing.

 

Rest of the post is spot on though. I'd love some back shoulder or jump balls.

 

 

we'll agree to disagree.  He consistently overthrew guys on the deep ball last year.  It's a timing issue, not an arm strength issue.  The Bengals only try to get their deep balls in the 40-45yd range (42yds specifically per Dalton).  I have no doubt Dalton can throw it 42yds.  It's much more about timing, arc and the mental side of throwing it.

[JC]

 

Doesn't fit the stereotype, so forget you ever saw that one.

 

Wish I hadn't.  Going to be hard to top that one.  GD that was pretty.

[Jamie_B]

In todays age, you don't have to be able to always hit the long ball.  Peyton has one of the quickest release times in all of the NFL and his offense is playing at a historic place.  Throwing your receiver into space is much more important in this day of age where the NFL is turning into a spread offense.  Having a respectable deep ball helps, but there isn't a QB in the league thats going to hit on all these deep passes.  The league is too fast.

 

Could he use some work in it?  Probably.  But he sure as hell hit on a couple nice ones today.  The Eifert pass might have been one of the prettiest deep balls all season in the NFL.

 

 

Agree.

 

And that's the question, is his deep ball respectable enough to keep the S deep and not in the box.

 

I think if AJ is clearly open like was on the TD today, yes, but how often does your WR get THAT wide open too?

 

Is his deep ball respectable enough to hit AJ in stride when the CB is keeping pace but AJ is still able to catch it if its thrown. THAT Im not sure about.

 

Which may or may not limit what Gruden can do with this O. Well see.

[Jamie_B]

 

The TDs to Jones and Eifert were MONEY. 

 

Are we really gonna circlejerk on how good our guy is on a prayer chuck 50 yards downfield?

 

Read my last post as to why its a concern.

[SouthPaw]

Good deep ball =/= Good QB.

There, are we all happy now?

 

He game manages very well. He wins, which is all that matters. Sure the AJ TD was underthrown and it looked like he threw as hard as he could. But the NFL is littered with cannon-armed QBs who were failures, and with game managing ones who won stuff.

 

The people who believe his arm strength negates any good qualities are mad. And the people who can't see that we could be blowing teams out if he could laser it are also mad. Just less so, because W's are what matter.

This

[JBandJoeyV]

 

Read my last post as to why its a concern.

 

Are you gonna watch tonights game by any chance? Just curious, because two of the elite QBs (probably the best in manning, and the best up in comer in luck) are playing head to head. I'd be extremely curious to see how many passes travel more than 40, let alone 50 yards in the air. My guess is very, very few. 

I just dont think its as big of a concern as you seem to think it is. Teams dont go deep that often, and as i mentioned before, AJ is so good at getting open that the defense has to protect against the deep ball no matter what.

 

I dont think it limits the play calling at all either. Gruden called for the deep ball 4 times today which is just as much as most teams I would imagine. Dalton hit 2 of 4 for 2 TDs. Even though the TD pass to AJ wasnt perfect, it is still enough that defenses have to think about how to stop it. 

 

Just my opinions though, but Id encourage you to watch tonights game if possible. I plan on watching. It will be interesting to see how much of an effect the deep ball really has for two of the elite qbs.

[Jamie_B]

 

 

we'll agree to disagree.  He consistently overthrew guys on the deep ball last year.  It's a timing issue, not an arm strength issue.  The Bengals only try to get their deep balls in the 40-45yd range (42yds specifically per Dalton).  I have no doubt Dalton can throw it 42yds.  It's much more about timing, arc and the mental side of throwing it.

 

 

Fair enough, I hope your right and with time he can start getting better timing with his WRs, he's in his 3rd year (hi Lucid) with AJ so its kinda of time to do that.

[|kennethmw|]

He threw more than one today, none of them were "good" one AJ came back on and got a TD so, by that measure I guess YOU could say it was "good" (the score yes, the pass 'meh)
 
I DGAF about what Gannon's opinion is. I saw the passes with my own two eyes.
 
Come on Kenneth don't be THAT guy.

What was the seam pass to Gresham, a check down? Maybe the pass to Eifert was a shovel pass? Or do only the passes to Green count as deep balls? We've all watched him throw great deep balls, and we've all watched him throw shitty ones. But we've also watched other QB's do the same thing, but because he came in to the league with a story that he lacked arm strength, people are predisposed to bring it up any time he misses a deep pass. I guess it's the pessimism built in to the fan base.

[Jamie_B]

What was the seam pass to Gresham, a check down? Maybe the pass to Eifert was a shovel pass? Or do only the passes to Green count as deep balls? We've all watched him throw great deep balls, and we've all watched him throw shitty ones. But we've also watched other QB's do the same thing, but because he came in to the league with a story that he lacked arm strength, people are predisposed to bring it up any time he misses a deep pass. I guess it's the pessimism built in to the fan base.

 

 

I believe there was a stat that showed his deep ball to the outside down the sideline passes are what was lacking yes

[cwing]

Was that pass underthrown because of arm strength, or because he didn't want to lose a completion and put air under it because Green was so wide open?  What are his deep ball stats relative to other QBs?  Is this relevant if you can get first downs other ways?  How big a part is a pretty deep pass in our Offensive Coordinator's game plan?  What about the 35-40 yard pass to Eifert that was dead on?  Did he use a different arm?
 
The coaches on the team you root for have a different idea about his relative abilities and the need for them than you do, apparently, since the use Dalton and praise him to the skies.
 
The jump from Dalton's arm isn't the strongest in the league to Dalton must be replaced because he his hurting the team relative to some imaginary QB is a long one that I won't let you make without protest.

32 yder to Eifert.

[NASTYNATI]

Correct me if I'm wrong but it was two passes. TWO.

First, im a Dalton supporter... I Have been since he was drafted. The play was called 4 times today, AJ makes a good play on the first one and it resulted in a TD (which was awesome). The remaining 3 were underthrown at key times in the game. I wasnt only talking about this game, im talking about every game. Gruden will call a deep ball to AJ at least 3 times a game and almost every time its a poorly thrown ball. It was a bad part of the game and was certainly worth pointing out. I like Andy as our QB and I think he can win with this team. That said he doesnt throw a good deep ball and Gruden has a responsibility to his QB and this team to put both in situations where they will have the best chance at success. Andy played great today, the deep ball was awful though.

[JBandJoeyV]

First, im a Dalton supporter... I Have been since he was drafted. The play was called 4 times today, AJ makes a good play on the first one and it resulted in a TD (which was awesome). The remaining 3 were underthrown at key times in the game. I wasnt only talking about this game, im talking about every game. Gruden will call a deep ball to AJ at least 3 times a game and almost every time its a poorly thrown ball. It was a bad part of the game and was certainly worth pointing out. I like Andy as our QB and I think he can win with this team. That said he doesnt throw a good deep ball and Gruden has a responsibility to his QB and this team to put both in situations where they will have the best chance at success. Andy played great today, the deep ball was awful though.

 

I dont think the deep ball calls were bad. Im not sure what remaining 3 you are referring to are though. There were 4 total balls of 35 yards or more I believe. The two touchdowns and then the back to back underthrows. He hit his first 2. Calling two more later in the game arent bad play calls. Definitely not great passes, but I think thats on andy not gruden.

 

And I was one of grudens biggest haters prior to the last two weeks. He has greatly improved the last two weeks and I hope he keeps it up!

[cwing]

What was the seam pass to Gresham, a check down? Maybe the pass to Eifert was a shovel pass? Or do only the passes to Green count as deep balls? We've all watched him throw great deep balls, and we've all watched him throw shitty ones. But we've also watched other QB's do the same thing, but because he came in to the league with a story that he lacked arm strength, people are predisposed to bring it up any time he misses a deep pass. I guess it's the pessimism built in to the fan base.

Maybe the term "deep ball" needs to be defined.

Is it over 50, over 40, over 30 and is it total play yards gained or pass in the air?

[The Traveler]

One issue I had was Marvin letting the quarter end after the Dalton run and slide short of the first down. It was clear to me Dalton was short (of course had he waited a yard later, he'd be carted off the field). They should have run a play as the commercial break gave Detroit time to review the play and challenge it, resulting in a punt rather than first down. There was about 20 seconds left, plenty of time to run a quick play.