JBandJoeyV Posted October 28, 2013 Report Share Posted October 28, 2013 To start the season I thought he was probably the 15th or 16th best QB in the league. Off the top of my head, I honestly couldn't tell you where I'd put him on a list right this second other than to say its higher than 15, and probably less than 10. Also worth noting is that not every QB is a fit for this system. ie., Stafford would not be a good QB in this system. And fwiw stats are different. To explain an example I used last year. Dalton had better stats than Eli Manning last year, but you couldn't really say in the grand scheme that Dalton is a better QB than Eli given each's cumulative careers. Well if you are gonna go off wins hes 6-2 and has the third best record in the AFC. If you are gonna go on stats he is 4th in TDs, 6th in quarterback rating, 7th in yards per game. THIS season, so far he is a top 10 QB. Whether or not overall he is, I dont know. But he is obviously improving and now has a quarter back rating at 99. To have a QB rating over 100 for the course of a season, you have to be pretty darn close to elite. What matters most though is that he is doing everything we could expect the guy to do and even more. So his deep ball isnt fricking perfect? Oh noes. He is still doing everything else pretty damn well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orange 'n Black Posted October 28, 2013 Report Share Posted October 28, 2013 Jesus. So how do we decide if Dalton is "top 10?" I can't quantify your feelings so I'll just give you some numbers. YPG - #10 YPA - #9 Comp% - #7 Yards - #6 TDs - #11 Passer Rating - #11 QBR - #7 Looks like top 10 to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bengals1181 Posted October 28, 2013 Report Share Posted October 28, 2013 Jesus. So how do we decide if Dalton is "top 10?" I can't quantify your feelings so I'll just give you some numbers. YPG - #10 YPA - #9 Comp% - #7 Yards - #6 TDs - #11 Passer Rating - #11 QBR - #7 Looks like top 10 to me. to add, those were BEFORE today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted October 28, 2013 Report Share Posted October 28, 2013 never. unless you are a crazy person. Elite QB's get it done with or without an elite group around them, Dalton cant even consistently get it done with a pile of elite talent on both sides of the ball. he STILL underthrows wide open receivers, 3 times today, also beating GOOD teams would be a solid start, as well, not making dumbass plays would also be a solid step in the right direction.. the INT short pass was stupid. SANU deep pass that he dropped diving should have been an easy in stride TD. The deep pass green caught should have been an easy in stride TD The deep pass down the sideline to green he had his guy by 7-8 yards... underthrown... still most ended up good, hell great plays, but these are passes that are TD's for elite QB's.. he doesnt show up in big games. we scored 6 points against the browns... he doesnt play particularly well from behind, just about every "comeback" victory we have had has involved a HUGE defensive play/series, or the defense scoring, and sometimes the other team or our special teams totaolly fucking up (lions, defense hold, punter shanked, green bay, defense caused fumble, and ran back for game winning score, and stopped GB after scoring go ahead TD. Then the one game we punt returned to the 50, got two average easy passes to green and kicked a FG. hell Nugent hit a 54 yarder for the win against the Lions, so it took good defensive stops, bad special teams for the lions, and a great long FG... we have a great team. but Dalton is the flat time on the Porsche. when elite QB's get even one great player, they go off (manning this year, Brady when he had moss) elite QB's destroy teams, on their own, and get what, 49 TD's for brady and moss,.. elite QB's get 30+ td's with rotating RB's and unrestricted free agent WR's they get from no where, Aaron rodgers doesnt have HALF the talent dalton does, and still smokes teams. Elite QB's make magical comebacks, like brady against the saints, and like Stafford today against the cowboys, and like Manning..all the time... it takes dalton shredding a bad jets team, getting 5 TD passes to even break into the top half of the league in TD passes. didnt brady go YEARS without having a game with no TD's, and dalton had two in a row, this year? i would love to have an elite QB. we are superbowl contenders with an elite QB... the AFC is weak this year aside from 2-3 teams, we can easily get that first palyoff win at home this year, but at some point, we are going to face a team that can put up pints and has a decent defense.. we can play with those teams unless the defense scores. when you defense outscores your offense in the playoffs, its a bad sign.. when you have multiple pro bowl offensive weapons and your defense out scores your offense... its a RELLY bad sign... I dont know why people think I have some grudge against dalton, i just dont see him as a top 10 QB. and in todays NFL you need a top 10 QB to win for real. win when it matters, and be a real contender... He was mediocre in a safe offense in college and struggles with the same things in year that that he struggled with as a rookie. didnt he have a 4 TD game his rookie year? there has been minimal progress as a QB.. he came into the league a leader and a smart QB. all of the same shortcomings are still there and are what will untimately stop the teams progress.. wish i was wrong... i guess its nice to have a short memory and a deep homeristic hope to be right about loving the guy... but im not on that boat with most people... his biggest problem should be picking which badass talent he should get the ball too... but its missing wide open players...STILL... elite qb... not even close... ANYWAY...I fly to Florida wednesday morning, look for me on TV thursday... Good friggin god dude. It's like an elite QB has to go for 100% completions and never an interception before you stop whining about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bengals1181 Posted October 28, 2013 Report Share Posted October 28, 2013 Will Brinson @WillBrinson9m Andy Dalton's last four games: 89 for 131 (67.9%) 1246 yards (311.5 per game) 11 TD 2 INT. Dayum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted October 28, 2013 Report Share Posted October 28, 2013 I assume Brady isn't elite this year. The only elite QB this year is Manning? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackie Treehorn Posted October 28, 2013 Report Share Posted October 28, 2013 Don't feed the trolls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBandJoeyV Posted October 28, 2013 Report Share Posted October 28, 2013 to add, those were BEFORE today. Yeah, after today he is top 7 in almost every stat I believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B.A.B. Posted October 28, 2013 Report Share Posted October 28, 2013 He's been playing like a top 5-8 QB. Who knows what we'll all be thinking by season's end Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelWeston Posted October 28, 2013 Report Share Posted October 28, 2013 I consider Elite to be guys who are surefire first ballot hall of famers....Brady-Manning-Rodgers-Brees I don't think you can consider him amongst those guys.There is a second level of very very good QBs Matt Ryan, Matt Stafford, (I think Andrew Luck is on the fast track to this group but needs much more time).Then you have a group of guys who have just done it longer but might not be that much better Roethlisberger, Romo, Rivers, EliIf we are talking career Elite I think he falls right after those guys.Statistically he has been the best QB in the NFL over the last 3 games. To be called elite you have to do it more then 3 games in my mind. I certainly am excited to watch him solidify his spot. I would love to see him climb up to that elite level.Maybe if you asked me who would I take over Dalton that would be a different question. Definitely the four elite Manning-Brees-Brady-Brees. Definitely Matt Ryan. I would lean heavily towards Stafford and Luck. Probably Eli. I would have to think very hard about everyone else in the league but Rivers, Big Ben and Romo would all be tough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBandJoeyV Posted October 28, 2013 Report Share Posted October 28, 2013 I consider Elite to be guys who are surefire first ballot hall of famers....Brady-Manning-Rodgers-Brees I don't think you can consider him amongst those guys. There is a second level of very very good QBs Matt Ryan, Matt Stafford, (I think Andrew Luck is on the fast track to this group but needs much more time). Then you have a group of guys who have just done it longer but might not be that much better Roethlisberger, Romo, Rivers, Eli If we are talking career Elite I think he falls right after those guys. Statistically he has been the best QB in the NFL over the last 3 games. To be called elite you have to do it more then 3 games in my mind. I certainly am excited to watch him solidify his spot. I would love to see him climb up to that elite level. Maybe if you asked me who would I take over Dalton that would be a different question. Definitely the four elite Manning-Brees-Brady-Brees. Definitely Matt Ryan. I would lean heavily towards Stafford and Luck. Probably Eli. I would have to think very hard about everyone else in the league but Rivers, Big Ben and Romo would all be tough. I would take Manning over Dalton just cause I think he would give us a better shot to win a SB this year. But hes old and I'm not sure if Id give up a guy that will get you to the playoffs every year for a guy that probably only has 1-2 shots left. Same with Brady. It would obviously be extremely tough to turn them down though. Brees and Rodgers no brainers. Matt Ryan as well. Luck probably too. Rivers probably would be the last one id take over dalton. The rest? Meh. I think Dalton is more of a winner than Stafford is. Stafford makes a lot of mistakes. Eli has shown the ability to win rings and has the ability to do what needs to be done in the playoffs. But you have to be able to get there. Eli never has been a very good regular season QB. Look at his career stats, they speak for themselves. Not to mention hes probably nearing the downside of his career whereas Andy is only 3 years in. Romo is a good qb, but he isnt really a winner either. Age taken into consideration, I'd choose Dalton for this team. I dont think Id trade dalton for big ben either at this stage in their respective careers. Anyways if I had to rate guys: Elite Manning Brady Brees Rodgers Matt Ryan Solid careers but best days likely behind them Big Ben Eli Young guys that will have a chance to move into elite once guys like manning and brady retire Andrew Luck Andy Dalton Colin Kaepernick Guys that will put up big stats but probably never win a ring Romo Rivers Stafford Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rumble In the Jungle Posted October 28, 2013 Report Share Posted October 28, 2013 If you base it on today only he's the only elite guy lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBandJoeyV Posted October 28, 2013 Report Share Posted October 28, 2013 If you base it on today only he's the only elite guy lol See Drew Brees and Aaron Rodgers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alleycat Posted October 28, 2013 Report Share Posted October 28, 2013 Wow. This ranks high on my list of what I would call useless threads. You know what Dalton is? He's the guy that Jay Gruden and Marvin Lewis and Mike Brown went out and drafted because they thought he would best fit the new kind of offense that they were trying to build. He had proven character, moxy, leadership, accuracy, and most importantly decision making (oh yeah, and he was a WINNER) at TCU. Elite? Who the fuck cares? He's a damn fine QB who may be the perfect fit for what we are building. And comparable guys like Brees and Rogers weren't even in his stratosphere at this point in their careers, which is to say, there is no reason to suspect that he won't continue to improve. Or to suspect that the other pieces they have gradually been putting in place around him won't do the same (see: Jones, Marvin). Sniveling little bitches who are still complaining about him don't actually watch other games, and other "elite" QB's, apparently. Because those guys make a lot of mistakes and underthrows and misfires as well. So they certainly must not be "elite"... Someone earlier in this thread listed Big Ben as a third Tier QB. LMAO. If that guy isn't a first ballot Hall of Famer I don't know who is. You know why? He's got the championships. And that, boys and girls, is the only thing that matters. As for me, I'm getting my popcorn ready. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Alice Posted October 28, 2013 Report Share Posted October 28, 2013 Stats to chew on... In his EIGHTH season, Tom Brady threw for 50 touchdowns. His career high before that? 28. Andy Dalton threw for 27 last year and is on pace for 32 this year. Tom Brady 'leading the Patriots to Super Bowl titles' is revisionist history. In '01, Brady became, UNDOUBTEDLY, the WORST starting quarterback to win a Super Bowl. In fact, he didn't 'become Tom Brady' until '07 - 3 years AFTER New England's last championship. Peyton Manning may well be the greatest quarterback ever. EV-ER. After 4 seasons in the league, what was his win-loss record? 32-32. His first playoff win? Year SIX. Andy Dalton's 'legacy' won't be clear for another decade. The bottom line is that he's still a young quarterback. There seemed to be a lot of folks out there during the offseason that believed Dalton had regressed in his second season. That's ludicrous. The 2011 Bengals played a bullshit schedule and won some games with smoke and mirrors. That team really, truly, had no business in the playoffs. In 2012, they moved up an echelon and belonged in the playoffs. They just laid an egg. Don't treat the second loss to Houston like something that it wasn't. On the road against a really good Houston team, they were 2 or 3 plays from winning that game. The 2013 Bengals WILL, at the very least, have homefield advantage in the first round. And they will have earned it. Even if they go out after one game, the team, Andy Dalton included, is trending upward. If you doubt it, you're blind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Bunghole| Posted October 28, 2013 Report Share Posted October 28, 2013 This "elite" argument is very simple to me. Dalton isn't, and very well will never likely be considered to be an "elite" QB. The answer is equally obvious: WHO CARES? As long as he keeps winning us games and is the undisputed leader of our offense, nothing else really matters. I would take Dalton every day and on Sundays if we were to win ONE stinking Superbowl over Dan Marino every time. Peyton Manning is probably the BEST quarterback I have ever watched play,,,and his lone SB ring was back in 2007. His brother isn't HALF the QB Peyton is, yet he has TWO rings. Rothlisberger has TWO (rapey) rings. The thing that most folks ignore is the TEAM around the QB. If you really look deeper into the SB winning QB's, you will see either an incredible defense (Rats, 2000) and incredible offense (Rams, 1999) or most likely, a serious BALANCE on both sides of the football. THIS is what makes me happy as a Bengals fan. Marvin Jones is likely going to be hot waiver wire pickup in FF after today. He will NEVER reproduce those TD numbers...EVER. But next week it will be somebody else. What I see that is encouraging is Dalton simply taking what the defense is allowing. Today it was Marvin Jones...Thursday it will be Green...or Gresham, or Sanu...or our run game will go off. This team is PERFECTLY positioned to make a run.I'd suggest enjoying the ride rather than lamenting Andy Dalton....whom threw for FIVE touchdowns today, you fucking haters! WHO DEY!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvin Posted October 28, 2013 Report Share Posted October 28, 2013 I always chuckle when you make posts like this and just completely make up stats and try and pass them off as accurate. I think it some kind of talisman. And I hope the good voodoo continues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Elflocko| Posted October 28, 2013 Report Share Posted October 28, 2013 Stats to chew on... In his EIGHTH season, Tom Brady threw for 50 touchdowns. His career high before that? 28. Andy Dalton threw for 27 last year and is on pace for 32 this year. Tom Brady 'leading the Patriots to Super Bowl titles' is revisionist history. In '01, Brady became, UNDOUBTEDLY, the WORST starting quarterback to win a Super Bowl. In fact, he didn't 'become Tom Brady' until '07 - 3 years AFTER New England's last championship. Peyton Manning may well be the greatest quarterback ever. EV-ER. After 4 seasons in the league, what was his win-loss record? 32-32. His first playoff win? Year SIX. Andy Dalton's 'legacy' won't be clear for another decade. The bottom line is that he's still a young quarterback. There seemed to be a lot of folks out there during the offseason that believed Dalton had regressed in his second season. That's ludicrous. The 2011 Bengals played a bullshit schedule and won some games with smoke and mirrors. That team really, truly, had no business in the playoffs. In 2012, they moved up an echelon and belonged in the playoffs. They just laid an egg. Don't treat the second loss to Houston like something that it wasn't. On the road against a really good Houston team, they were 2 or 3 plays from winning that game. The 2013 Bengals WILL, at the very least, have homefield advantage in the first round. And they will have earned it. Even if they go out after one game, the team, Andy Dalton included, is trending upward. If you doubt it, you're blind. You've obviously never hear of Ben Rapistberger.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Bunghole| Posted October 28, 2013 Report Share Posted October 28, 2013 You've obviously never hear of Ben Rapistberger.... Or referees that enabled his rapey bullshit in the Seattle SB "win". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Alice Posted October 28, 2013 Report Share Posted October 28, 2013 Ben Roethlisberger had the worst 'winning performance', but as a second year quarterback, he was light years ahead of where Brady was when he the Pats beat the Rams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted October 28, 2013 Report Share Posted October 28, 2013 Don't feed the trolls. I would think he was trolling if he didn't put so much effort into his post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BengalBacker Posted October 28, 2013 Report Share Posted October 28, 2013 I hope and expect Dalton to be here a long time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CTBengalsFan Posted October 28, 2013 Report Share Posted October 28, 2013 I dont know why people think I have some grudge against dalton It'd probably because you staked out your position early, and have refused to budge an inch and give Dalton any credit whatsoever. You pick apart every single incompletion as if he's the only QB who throws them. You downplay any stat that makes him look good and cling desperately to anything that makes him look bad. This is Bob Bratkowski in reverse, you don't defend everything he does, you rip apart everything he does. You still complain that he hasn't beat good teams, yet this year we have only one win against a team under .500 and have beaten Rodgers and Brady, two of your favorite "elite" QBs. He may never be in the Manning/Brady/Rodgers/Brees tier, but he can be in the one below it. And he's our franchise QB, so you might as well warm up to the guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted October 28, 2013 Report Share Posted October 28, 2013 Lets take a loot at his two and a half seasons shall we? *= projected - Year 1 - Year 2 - Year 3 Completion % - 58.1 - 62.3 - 65.6* Yards per game - 212.4 - 229.3 - 281.1* Yards per reception - 6.6 - 6.9 - 8.1* Touchdowns - 20 - 27 - 32* Interceptions - 13 - 16 - 14* Passer rating - 80.4 - 87.4 - 99.0* Tell me Dalton is not BECOMING elite.. The guy has only improved in his three seasons with us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted October 28, 2013 Report Share Posted October 28, 2013 I would MUCH rather have a 32TD 290ypg Dalton than some fly by night QB some teams are starting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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