OC "haters" explain to me....

[Homer_Rice]

Here are a couple of cliches that have some pertinence, I think.

 

--This team lives by the sword and dies by the sword.

--The qualities that make them outstanding are also the qualities that can hurt them the most.

 

I suppose I'm a bit of a contrarian here. Despite some head-scratching from time to time, I'm enjoying the hell out of this team this year. I understand some of the frustration that underlies much of the nit-picking that happens here, but I'm not sure that it's always warranted given the big picture. Imo, barring something catastrophic, this team is--and will be--a contender for the short to medium term (i.e. the next 3-5 years.)

 

Not a football guru, so I'll draw on some experience which I do have and for which I have "some skins on the wall." (And this should ring true for anyone who has had to master the intricacies of a complex productive process and lead a sizable number of people.) A leader's performance is generally determined by two characteristics: an ability to "predict/forecast" the future (both immediate and longer term) and a developed facility for putting the right person in the right place at the right time. Of course there are a lot of smaller decisions that are crucial and important along the way, but it really boils down to these two elements. If one gets these mostly right, then the test of excellence is also twofold: First, when things are proceeding normally then the results should be incredibly good. Second, and more importantly, when a cog falls off the wheel somewhere (and this shit happens all the time) then how well does the group recover and overcome critical immediate deficiencies?

 

Considering the first two qualities:

 

1 ) What is the dynamic of the front office? Better or worse than before? Do they manage the superstructure of the team well?

2 ) Do Marvin and the rest of the coaching staff understand football? Are they able to translate this understanding into a well-developed strategy for winning the "war" and are they capable of making the tactical decisions, under duress, which puts them into a position to win "battles"?

3 ) Do they have the correct mix of "labor power" to execute their plan(s) on both the strategic and tactical levels? Just how good are they at putting the right person in the right place at the right time?

 

Considering the latter two qualities:

 

1 ) How does the team perform when all is going well?

2 ) How well does the team overcome adversity, whether it be in the form of mistakes in execution on specific plays, unexpected injuries which have medium to long-term implications, or simply living with and correcting the deficiencies which stem from inexperience? Are they minimizing the downside as these issues are dealt with and (hopefully) developed into strengths?

 

When one looks at matters from this perspective, then I have to say that for the most part this team is doing it right. The front office is much improved, Lewis and the coaching staff are superior to previous Bengal incarnations (and even better than previous Lewis incarnations), and the quality of players is impressively good.

 

It would be nice to win every week in the fashion with which this team beat down the Jets. But that's a pretty perfect world in which the stars are all aligned and everything is the land of milk and honey. What is more telling because it reflects a world which is more true is this: this team has overcome some serious "equipment" breakdowns (injuries which have taken players out of the equation) and some immediate mistakes due mostly to inexperience leading to faulty execution.

 

Generally speaking, the right people are in the right place at the right time. It's not perfect, but it sure as hell is a lot more fun than it used to be. And as fans, we have no control over these processes--we are just observers who get a certain amount of visceral pleasure (or heartburn) as we look down on the field. I'm not looking this particular gift horse in the mouth--I'm just going to enjoy the ride.

[|Bunghole|]

 

 

 

  That was a helluva throw to Sanu for the TD though, wasn't it?

 

 

It was an absolutely perfectly thrown ball, especially since it was to little Giovanni. One foot farther out and Gio can't stay in bounds, one foot farther in and the defender can make a play on the ball. It was a gorgeous spiral, and because of it, Dalton got derided for it by the NFL.com's replay crew...sarcastically being referred to as the Bengals "other quarterback". It was funny, but a little telling. That recap is still up on NFL.com if you want to watch it and hear their comments about Sanu/Andy.

[membengal]

That was a helluva post, Homer Rice. 

[JC]

We need a little more shovel pass to 25.  

[Big Alice]

I do TV play-by-play for our local high school games. I also host a coach's show, so I'm pretty familiar with the coaches. I assure they know more about football than 99.9% of the general public in Sanford, North Carolina. However, EVERY time somebody engages me in a conversation about high school football, they have a criticism about the coaching. It might be play calling, lineups, game management, whatever... Win or lose, it's always criticism.

It comes with the territory.

[Tigris]

I asked what the original poster thought an OC did. There is another thread, I forget which one, where he changed a post there too.

The first one was funny, I'll give him that, but the dude is absolutely clueless and he knows it. There is not one ounce of football knowledge in that man's entire body. Talking about the Bengals is one thing, actually knowing and understanding the game is another. It's obvious he's never had any experience in anything other than what the common fan experiences but he gets on here and acts like he's Mr. Knowledge and whatnot, talks down on others, and just is a complete douchebag to me and others multiple times. It's evident, so extremely obvious, he knows nothing about the game and he never will. Go ahead and spout off things you think you saw, because the game is a lot more than "he was open and he missed him" or "he underthrew him again!!!". It's just annoying to me as someone who really appreciates the game, knows the game, and actually understands the game.

[Arkansas Bengal]

I am sorry but I have to address this.  The receivers are running PLENTY of routes across the middle.  I watched yesterday's game and saw plenty.  What isn't happening is our QB is NOT THROWING many passes over the middle.    We ran a screen play yesterday to Hawkins on 3rd and 10.  He got 7 yards.  Screen pass is run 2 or 3 times tops in a game.  Passes over the middle should be our bread and butter given our talent at TE,  and other accessories.   

 

Cold hard fact is a slant or seam pass is typically a pass executed based on your read coming to the line of scrimmage.  Great QBs who can read a defense well thrive on this pass.  It is also a pass that must be throw very accurately as the receiver is typically at full stride with a defender only a step or two behind.   Andy doesn't seem confident in his ability to make this throw.

 

Since Andy typically only throws to the PRIMARY receiver, I contend that the ones over the middle are decoy SECONDARY receivers.

[|Harley|]

I sometimes think Gruden gets nervous about what he can dial up for AD and goes through periods of being conservative from game to game and within games. This isn't an excuse for Gruden but more of an observation.

Imagine AD playing in Brat's vertical scheme? That would be a disaster so I think the WCO is good for Dalton. Conversely, I don't think the WCO is the right fit for AJ.

The bottomline is that these are all young guys and have yet to win anything big in the NFL and are still finding their way. I include Gruden too. They clearly do not instinctually know what the other guy is going to do.

[|SF2|]

 
Since Andy typically only throws to the PRIMARY receiver, I contend that the ones over the middle are decoy SECONDARY receivers.

We run the West Coast Offense. There isn't a primary receiver until the QB looks at the defense and finds the mismatch.

[JBandJoeyV]

We run the West Coast Offense. There isn't a primary receiver until the QB looks at the defense and finds the mismatch.

 

not sure that is factual...

[Big Alice]

 
not sure that is factual...

For the most part, it is. The West Coast Offense is designed to identify a mismatch at the line of scrimmage. The Bengals receivers run as many "option" routes as anybody in the league. They alter their routes based on what they see presnap and as the play unfolds. The quarterback's post snap reads start with that primary mismatch, but the progressions are determined by the rotation of the defense.

My estimate would be that 70% of the Bengals pass plays don't have a "primary" receiver. That's just a best guess, though.

[bigboi]

http://www.topgunqbacademy.com/PDFsVideo/TheMultipleWestCoastSpreadOffense.pdf

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOdL-hGOKZQ#t=39

 

both of these or more close to what the Bengals or running because over the year every coach has ether add or changed plays in the west coast offense .Because originally the west coast offense did not have shoot gun nor did it spread the defense out

[|Bunghole|]

I asked what the original poster thought an OC did. There is another thread, I forget which one, where he changed a post there too.

The first one was funny, I'll give him that, but the dude is absolutely clueless and he knows it. There is not one ounce of football knowledge in that man's entire body. Talking about the Bengals is one thing, actually knowing and understanding the game is another. It's obvious he's never had any experience in anything other than what the common fan experiences but he gets on here and acts like he's Mr. Knowledge and whatnot, talks down on others, and just is a complete douchebag to me and others multiple times. It's evident, so extremely obvious, he knows nothing about the game and he never will. Go ahead and spout off things you think you saw, because the game is a lot more than "he was open and he missed him" or "he underthrew him again!!!". It's just annoying to me as someone who really appreciates the game, knows the game, and actually understands the game.

So you don't actually like PENIS?

 

'Cuz I was about to give you a call. I'm lonely.

[Tigris]

So you don't actually like PENIS?
 
'Cuz I was about to give you a call. I'm lonely.

It's late and you'll regret it in the morning...

[JBandJoeyV]

For the most part, it is. The West Coast Offense is designed to identify a mismatch at the line of scrimmage. The Bengals receivers run as many "option" routes as anybody in the league. They alter their routes based on what they see presnap and as the play unfolds. The quarterback's post snap reads start with that primary mismatch, but the progressions are determined by the rotation of the defense.

My estimate would be that 70% of the Bengals pass plays don't have a "primary" receiver. That's just a best guess, though.

 

I dont know. It would be very interesting to have a conversation with Gruden and dalton about the whole thing to be honest. It definitely seems like dalton throws the ball to his primary WR way more often than not. Id be interested to see if the primary WR is based on play call or decided at the line. It seems like more often than not even the WRs/TEs know if the ball is going to them. Id think that is a coaching thing, but also maybe a dalton thing as well. either way needs to be addressed.

[membengal]

I don't hate Gruden. Such troll-bait framing.

 

I don't hate Dalton. Same framing issues.

 

I think both have room to improve, clearly. Excited that the offense has been as good as it has with both still having plenty of room to improve. 

[Oldcat]

 

I dont know. It would be very interesting to have a conversation with Gruden and dalton about the whole thing to be honest. It definitely seems like dalton throws the ball to his primary WR way more often than not. Id be interested to see if the primary WR is based on play call or decided at the line. It seems like more often than not even the WRs/TEs know if the ball is going to them. Id think that is a coaching thing, but also maybe a dalton thing as well. either way needs to be addressed.

 

This seems unlikely since we spread the ball around so much.  We'd need a crapload of plays to have primary receiver plays for the eight or so fellows he gets a pass to on a regular basis.

[|Bunghole|]

It's late and you'll regret it in the morning...

Good answer. 

 

:lol:

[|Bunghole|]

Don't hate Gruden. Such troll-bait framing.

 

Don't hate Dalton. Same framing issues.

 

Think both have room to improve, clearly. Excited that the offense has been as good as it has with both still having room to improve. 

Wait...what? At least for me (and I think I can speak for the reasonable on here) there's nothing approaching "hate" for either of those guys. I know I don't hate them. And like you say, yes, there's certainly room for improvement. But to on the one hand handwave away legit concerns with both Dalton and Gruden (and let's throw in the o-line and pass catcher's dropped balls while we're at it) by stating "they have room to improve"  and then in the same breath calling out those that do express those legit concerns is not trolling and a bit hypocritical.

 

I don't think expressing a lack of excitement about the offense and it's need to improve is any more trolling or unrealistic than you expressing how "excited you are" by the prospect that they will improve....in which case you are assuming they automatically will and some of us aren't willing to make that assumption.

 

Maybe that isn't clear....I am HAPPY we are 7-4 and you won't see me on here constantly bitching about any component of the team. But I WILL call out, complain, whatever you want to call it when certain segments of our team are not meeting the elevated expectations that they deserve to have based on prior performance, potential and where we were before and where we are supposed to go now.

 

Jesus, it's almost like the Reds with these guys.

[membengal]

The term "haters" was used to start this thread.

 

And the anti-Dalton crowd sure seems to hate him. 

 

Just noting there is a middle ground. Like both of them and think they both have plenty of room to improve. 

[Oldcat]

I think the guy was responding to Go's original troll post.  Put an "I" in front of those sentences...

 

"I don't hate Gruden"  "I don't hate Dalton".  The troll bait framing is referring to Go's setting up that there's only one camp - Gruden Haters/Dalton Crazy Lovers" versus ... well him.

[membengal]

I think the guy was responding to Go's original troll post.  Put an "I" in front of those sentences...

 

"I don't hate Gruden"  "I don't hate Dalton".  The troll bait framing is referring to Go's setting up that there's only one camp - Gruden Haters/Dalton Crazy Lovers" versus ... well him.

 

This. I will go back and edit to make clear. 

[|Bunghole|]

Ah. My mistake. When our Dear Leader starts posts like these and they invariably encourage discussion like they do, I often intentionally forget about the OP once the page counts start to mount and try to address the most recent responses, often forgetting that many are still responding to his OP. Apologies.

[membengal]

That was a helluva post, Homer Rice. 

 

lol. The rep system is weird, I know, but hysterical that this got a "-1" from someone. 

[Bengals1181]

 

I dont know. It would be very interesting to have a conversation with Gruden and dalton about the whole thing to be honest. It definitely seems like dalton throws the ball to his primary WR way more often than not. Id be interested to see if the primary WR is based on play call or decided at the line. It seems like more often than not even the WRs/TEs know if the ball is going to them. Id think that is a coaching thing, but also maybe a dalton thing as well. either way needs to be addressed.

 

 

I think its designed that way, and I'm willing to bet most systems are that way these days.  In the NFL today, the name of the game is to GET THE BALL OUT QUICK.  

 

I'm willing to bet most teams run a 1-2 read system and the other reads are primarily there in case something happens and either the first 2 reads aren't open, the protection breaks down, the snap is fumbled, etc...

 

I think it would be a myth to think that QB's in today's NFL are consistently getting to their 3rd read.