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claptonrocks

Building the Oline.....

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5 hours ago, spicoli said:

Lol it's not like the guy had his arm ripped off in a farming accident and then reattached. What is it that's got you so worried...that he'll be a bust or that he can't come back from injury?

He didn't make it through day two of training camp so yeah, it's a concern. Really though OT & linemen in general get hurt a lot, on either side of the ball. Chances are the 3rd OT will have to play at least a game or two at some point. 

 

Beyond that I think some veteran mentorship would be good, maybe offset a bit of Turner's dirtbaggery. The last vet we had in that room decided to spend most of the year sandbagging so I'd say leadership is lacking there.

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8 hours ago, spicoli said:

Lol it's not like the guy had his arm ripped off in a farming accident and then reattached. What is it that's got you so worried...that he'll be a bust or that he can't come back from injury?

No, it’s like the guy and the Alabama coaching staff lied about his health and the Bengals  wasted a first round pick on a guy who gave us zero snaps in 2019 and needed surgery.  He might be a great player but he fucked the Bengals over.  The idea that he was injured during light contact drills is laughable. 

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4 hours ago, SF2 said:

No, it’s like the guy and the Alabama coaching staff lied about his health and the Bengals  wasted a first round pick on a guy who gave us zero snaps in 2019 and needed surgery.  He might be a great player but he fucked the Bengals over.  The idea that he was injured during light contact drills is laughable. 

He wore a harness for most of his senior season, so it was pretty obvious that there was something going on with his shoulder. It's the Bengals responsibility to do their proper investigation and due diligence. 

 

No one forced the Bengals to draft Williams and so blaming him or Alabama is pointless and off base

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45 minutes ago, PatternMaster said:

He wore a harness for most of his senior season, so it was pretty obvious that there was something going on with his shoulder. It's the Bengals responsibility to due their proper investigation and due diligence. 

 

No one forced the Bengals to draft Williams and so blaming him or Alabama is pointless and off base

Meh, I am sure the Bengals did their due diligence and were fed a load of BS by the Bama staff. Alabama’s greatest recruiting tool is how many high round picks they send to the NFL.  I am sure the Bama staff promised Williams they would cover his ass if he stayed on the field. 

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1 hour ago, SF2 said:

The idea that he was injured during light contact drills is laughable. 

Never missed a snap in college then threw up 225 bench 23 times at the combine and went through every drill with no issues whatsoever..

I know everyone is shell shocked...but...Jonah Williams is a MUCH better prospect than Ced Ogb or Jake Fisher ever thought about being.

He'll be fine. 

 

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4 hours ago, T-Dub said:

The last vet we had in that room decided to spend most of the year sandbagging so I'd say leadership is lacking there.

The unequivocal leader of that group is Trey Hopkins by a landslide....which is a good thing.

I know it's hard to grasp that the Bengals could build a fine leader within their organization but....that's what happened. 

Low and behold.

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5 hours ago, bengaled said:

Would "slightly higher" be more correct? 

I guess it depends on how much stock you put into PFF grades.

And a interior lineman is a interior lineman, IMO. They should all be interchangeable. 

Look, Warford is a beast in the run game but in the passing game...not so much.

Pass. 

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I was looking at some players that could be cut in the next few months that could be available to compete, replace, or add to the talent level at the offensive line; here are my top candidates in no particular order:

 

-Kendall Lamm- Teaming him up with :Gaither-Davis could be good for the App St. star.  With recent draft picks Lamm could be a cap casualty.

 

Nick Gates - The front office and fans love this guy but then they add 3 more players that are arguable better/drafted higher than him in the past 50 days. 

 

David Quessenbarry -  He's a smart player that can add value if he's healthy. The Titans drafted Wilson, signed Sambrailo in FA, and Kelly Dennis is very popular in Nash Vegas; leaving Danny in limbo. 

 

-Martinis Rankin - Could be the odd man out, if so he's definitely worth adding to this roster. The addition of Niang in the draft and Remmers in FA doesn't bode well for his future in KC.

 

Oli Udoh - He's young talent that could get cut in favor of a higher pick. Raw but has the tools to get better, physically he's gifted. He's going to have beat out more experienced guys to make the final roster.

 

I believe guys like Douglas, Prince, and Redmond could be upgraded with these players.

 

 

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13 hours ago, spicoli said:

Never missed a snap in college then threw up 225 bench 23 times at the combine and went through every drill with no issues whatsoever..

I know everyone is shell shocked...but...Jonah Williams is a MUCH better prospect than Ced Ogb or Jake Fisher ever thought about being.

He'll be fine. 

 

The Bench press does not measure lateral arm stability nor does it test the health of the labrum which is the injury Williams had.  It is a simply up an down exercise motion that use certain muscle groups and does not measure range of motion.    A real test of the labrum would be butterflys with dumbells.    The harness he wore was to prevent his arm from going outside a certain range which would have made him susceptible to a separated should given he had a torn labrum.   If our staff missed it, I agree its on them but Williams playing coy and not letting the team know he probably needed surgery doesn't make him innocent.  It was a wasted year on a high end rookie contract.

 

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The O-line will be a multi-year process. But we have a decent start.

 

1) The scheme change.

 

It looked like it helped everyone. Jordan and Hart in particular played better in the second half. And Johnson looked decent. XSF is supposed to match the scheme well.

 

2) From Sieve to Strength

 

Usually takes more than 1 year. Jordan (early), Hart (early), Price, Redmond, and Smith were sieves last year. Jerry was not much better. Check out our PFF grades for last year (GS/G):

 

1. C Hopkins (16/16) 62.4

2. RT Hart (16/16) 57.7 (better 2nd)

3. LG Jordan (9/13) 43.7 (70+ 2nd)

4. RG Su'a-Filo (4/11) 60.1

5. LT Williams (DNP) 

 

If the 2nd half improvements from Jordan (who was around 35 for the first half) and Hart hold, everyone should be over 60 for the year. If so, perhaps the line won't be a strength, but at least it won't be a weakness.  Only 2 other Bengals lineman graded out over 60 last year:

 

6. LT Glenn (5/6) 68.4 (released)

7. T/G Johnson (1/6) 62.6

8. RG Miller (13/13) 58.6 (released)

9. G/T Jerry (5/11) 55.6 (gone)

10. T Smith (5/6) 51.0 (waived)

11. G Redmond (2/3) 50.6

12. G/C Price (8/16) 41.8 

 

3) Glenn factor

 

In addition to the scheme change, and the Jordan/Hart strides, the other major factor in the line not looking like total crap late last year was Cordy Glenn at LT. He was, by far, our highest graded lineman last year. But he is gone, which leads us to..

 

4) Across the board starter improvement

 

There is no way Jordan will be as bad to start the year as he was last year. Experience, the new scheme, and having a competent LT beside him should again see an uptick.

 

That LT should be even better with Williams this year. If Williams is a stud and Jordan is better than the end of last year, the left side could be a real strength.

 

The rest of the line is merely competent, at best. Hopkins was OK, and perhaps improves some in his 2nd year at C. XSF is a slight upgrade on Miller. Hart improved but most hope Johnson beats him out.

 

5) Poor depth

 

Aside from Johnson, there is not much here to inspire confidence.

 

Price was awful last year and his contract may be the only reason he is still here, along with his ability to play C. Hopefully injuries played a part.

 

Redmond was better than Price, but still not very good. 

 

Adeniji is a versatile piece who is probably a year away from contributing. Prince & Dugas did not play last year.

 

6) Going forward

 

If not this year, then hopefully next, we see at least 2 more additions to the line. A real plus player at C/G & T. Draft or FA. This bumps 1-2 of Hopkins, Hart/Johnson, and XSF to the bench (whomever does not play well this year), where they join Adeniji as perfectly fine backups. Redmond & Price walk.

 

Now, if Hopkins, Johnson/Hart, and/or XSF knock it out of the park this year (or Price does), adjust accordingly. 

 

 

 

 

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18 hours ago, spicoli said:

I guess it depends on how much stock you put into PFF grades.

And a interior lineman is a interior lineman, IMO. They should all be interchangeable. 

Look, Warford is a beast in the run game but in the passing game...not so much.

Pass. 

Fine, and you're entitled to feel that way. I just have a problem with that "interchangeable pieces" theory you and Mike Brown are noted to share  and think differently.

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2 minutes ago, bengaled said:

Fine, and you're entitled to feel that way. I just have a problem with that "interchangeable pieces" theory you and Mike Brown are noted to share  and think differently.

Pretty much every team in the league does the same thing....Saints drafted Ruiz and moved him to RG and kicked out Warford.

It's a pretty common occurrence. Those guys should absolutely be interchangeable. 

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4 minutes ago, bengaled said:

Fine, and you're entitled to feel that way. I just have a problem with that "interchangeable pieces" theory you and Mike Brown are noted to share  and think differently.

Totally agree with this.  I just don't buy that guys are as interchangeable at the guard position as some think.   These guys get set in their ways playing the same position for extended periods of time and then to switch sides seems like a bad idea.  In fact, switching guys and positions while introducing a new scheme is why the O line was so putrid the first half of the season.  Whey they reverted back to a more conventional run blocking scheme they began to make nice holes for Mixon. 

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9 minutes ago, spicoli said:

Pretty much every team in the league does the same thing....Saints drafted Ruiz and moved him to RG and kicked out Warford.

It's a pretty common occurrence. Those guys should absolutely be interchangeable. 

Ruiz is going to be the center at New Orleans.   They will move Erik McCoy back to his natural RG position.   McCoy was moved to Center after All Pro center Max Unger unexpectedly (sorta) retired.  I don't think the Saints thought Unger would retire and give up $5.1 mil especially after another pro bowl season but he did.  Some guys have a plan and Unger obviously did.

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Ruiz is listed as a RG on the depth chart and every piece of information I've found on the subject says that he's going to be a RG....but ok.  

There's plenty of teams out there that are moving these guys around, it's not like it's some Cincinnati thing. 

Interior players are absolutely interchangeable, that's my opinion

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16 hours ago, PatternMaster said:

I was looking at some players that could be cut in the next few months that could be available to compete, replace, or add to the talent level at the offensive line; here are my top candidates in no particular order:

 

-Kendall Lamm- Teaming him up with :Gaither-Davis could be good for the App St. star.  With recent draft picks Lamm could be a cap casualty.

 

Nick Gates - The front office and fans love this guy but then they add 3 more players that are arguable better/drafted higher than him in the past 50 days. 

 

David Quessenbarry -  He's a smart player that can add value if he's healthy. The Titans drafted Wilson, signed Sambrailo in FA, and Kelly Dennis is very popular in Nash Vegas; leaving Danny in limbo. 

 

-Martinis Rankin - Could be the odd man out, if so he's definitely worth adding to this roster. The addition of Niang in the draft and Remmers in FA doesn't bode well for his future in KC.

 

Oli Udoh - He's young talent that could get cut in favor of a higher pick. Raw but has the tools to get better, physically he's gifted. He's going to have beat out more experienced guys to make the final roster.

 

I believe guys like Douglas, Prince, and Redmond could be upgraded with these players.

 

 

Tks for the interesting read..

I read each players summary..

One or two could vie for practice squad....OShea Dugas and Prince do nothing for me..

Redmond is emergency backup..too hyper on plays to be a starter..

All out effort though..

We're stuck with Price's 1st round rookie contract...his 31" arms his problems with

Legs ankles and feet make his initial burst off the ball as slow as it gets...

 

 

 

 

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9 hours ago, SF2 said:

The Bench press does not measure lateral arm stability nor does it test the health of the labrum which is the injury Williams had.  It is a simply up an down exercise motion that use certain muscle groups and does not measure range of motion.    A real test of the labrum would be butterflys with dumbells.    The harness he wore was to prevent his arm from going outside a certain range which would have made him susceptible to a separated should given he had a torn labrum.   If our staff missed it, I agree its on them but Williams playing coy and not letting the team know he probably needed surgery doesn't make him innocent.  It was a wasted year on a high end rookie contract.

 

Still worth the pick..

Even out a year they have JB's blindside bodyguard...

Hes as much a master at his position as Joe is...

 

 

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4 hours ago, SF2 said:

Totally agree with this.  I just don't buy that guys are as interchangeable at the guard position as some think.   These guys get set in their ways playing the same position for extended periods of time and then to switch sides seems like a bad idea.  In fact, switching guys and positions while introducing a new scheme is why the O line was so putrid the first half of the season.  Whey they reverted back to a more conventional run blocking scheme they began to make nice holes for Mixon. 

U right...like a baseball player batting righty then they tell him to switch to lefty..

 

They try and make a craft at one side then you flip his whole game...

 

Yes you can switch players along the line but doesnt mean hes the same talent that way..

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8 hours ago, IsaacCurtis:TheReal#85 said:

The O-line will be a multi-year process. But we have a decent start.

 

1) The scheme change.

 

It looked like it helped everyone. Jordan and Hart in particular played better in the second half. And Johnson looked decent. XSF is supposed to match the scheme well.

 

2) From Sieve to Strength

 

Usually takes more than 1 year. Jordan (early), Hart (early), Price, Redmond, and Smith were sieves last year. Jerry was not much better. Check out our PFF grades for last year (GS/G):

 

1. C Hopkins (16/16) 62.4

2. RT Hart (16/16) 57.7 (better 2nd)

3. LG Jordan (9/13) 43.7 (70+ 2nd)

4. RG Su'a-Filo (4/11) 60.1

5. LT Williams (DNP) 

 

If the 2nd half improvements from Jordan (who was around 35 for the first half) and Hart hold, everyone should be over 60 for the year. If so, perhaps the line won't be a strength, but at least it won't be a weakness.  Only 2 other Bengals lineman graded out over 60 last year:

 

6. LT Glenn (5/6) 68.4 (released)

7. T/G Johnson (1/6) 62.6

8. RG Miller (13/13) 58.6 (released)

9. G/T Jerry (5/11) 55.6 (gone)

10. T Smith (5/6) 51.0 (waived)

11. G Redmond (2/3) 50.6

12. G/C Price (8/16) 41.8 

 

3) Glenn factor

 

In addition to the scheme change, and the Jordan/Hart strides, the other major factor in the line not looking like total crap late last year was Cordy Glenn at LT. He was, by far, our highest graded lineman last year. But he is gone, which leads us to..

 

4) Across the board starter improvement

 

There is no way Jordan will be as bad to start the year as he was last year. Experience, the new scheme, and having a competent LT beside him should again see an uptick.

 

That LT should be even better with Williams this year. If Williams is a stud and Jordan is better than the end of last year, the left side could be a real strength.

 

The rest of the line is merely competent, at best. Hopkins was OK, and perhaps improves some in his 2nd year at C. XSF is a slight upgrade on Miller. Hart improved but most hope Johnson beats him out.

 

5) Poor depth

 

Aside from Johnson, there is not much here to inspire confidence.

 

Price was awful last year and his contract may be the only reason he is still here, along with his ability to play C. Hopefully injuries played a part.

 

Redmond was better than Price, but still not very good. 

 

Adeniji is a versatile piece who is probably a year away from contributing. Prince & Dugas did not play last year.

 

6) Going forward

 

If not this year, then hopefully next, we see at least 2 more additions to the line. A real plus player at C/G & T. Draft or FA. This bumps 1-2 of Hopkins, Hart/Johnson, and XSF to the bench (whomever does not play well this year), where they join Adeniji as perfectly fine backups. Redmond & Price walk.

 

Now, if Hopkins, Johnson/Hart, and/or XSF knock it out of the park this year (or Price does), adjust accordingly. 

 

 

 

 

Thats one of the more impressive analysis and summaries about our Oline as I've read in awhile...

My hope is Adeniji steps up second half of season if need be...

He really does have potential to be a good one...

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23 hours ago, spicoli said:

The unequivocal leader of that group is Trey Hopkins by a landslide....which is a good thing.

I know it's hard to grasp that the Bengals could build a fine leader within their organization but....that's what happened. 

Low and behold.

I kooked up his bio and other articles about him..

First off ..Hes a good man..

Comes from Texas shores and becane an outstanding player in Texas..

Chose U. of Texas and played guard for them most of his career..

Worked his Ass off to get a roster spot then on to starting fulltime this past year..

Really is a story in hard work and perseverance ...

Trivia question for you..

How nany games has Trey started as a center for the Bengals?

19...

Just 19 games as the leader..

Hes a good one..

 

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9 hours ago, claptonrocks said:

How nany games has Trey started as a center for the Bengals?

19...

Just 19 games as the leader..

Why does that matter?  Is there a league mandate that says you can’t be a team leader until you’ve started X amount of games?

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5 hours ago, spicoli said:

Why does that matter?  Is there a league mandate that says you can’t be a team leader until you’ve started X amount of games?

No im saying he took over the leadership role quickly...thats all

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Hopkins is definitely a leader and he's earned his place.  Undrafted and injured early in his career, he bounced back and outplayed a 1st round pick to win the job at C.   It's kind of crazy that he is the surest bet on the o-line, but it's true.  The overall lack of experience at o-line is a concern.  XSF is another veteran presence in the mix and I think he will wind up being an upgrade over Miller. 

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48 minutes ago, Inigo Montoya said:

Hopkins is definitely a leader and he's earned his place.  Undrafted and injured early in his career, he bounced back and outplayed a 1st round pick to win the job at C.   It's kind of crazy that he is the surest bet on the o-line, but it's true.  The overall lack of experience at o-line is a concern.  XSF is another veteran presence in the mix and I think he will wind up being an upgrade over Miller. 

XSF is a good pass protector but has issues in the run game bigtime..

I did like the idea of Warford signing but cooled because hes pretty much a one trick pony like Filo only hes the opposite..

He can run block very well but in pass protection he became an open door to Brees...

Thet come in all varieties but in our case Filo holds up well for JB to do his magic...

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Until this year teams often tried to get away with dressing fewer OL players on the game day roster so they could add players to other positions depending on injuries.  Offensive Linemen that were interchangeable along the line made it easier to do this.  It wasn't just a Bengal's thing.

 

Starting this year the new CBA allows 2 additional players on the game day roster but if IIRC one of those has to be an OL.  I have no idea how that is going to effect game day roster construction going forward.

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