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He's the only NFL coach I know of that's been booted from the league for shit like that so it obviously went far beyond any normal standard of behavior, even for an NFL locker room..  Guy was encourag

I agree with a lot of what you said but this is plain wrong.  The guy sucks, has always sucked.  Watch any of the old montages of "Steeler O-linemen holding" and he's front and center constantly.  His

Just wanted to point out how apt your avatar is right next to that quote.

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1 hour ago, spicoli said:

Katie, Troy and Duke will be the "braintrust" of this team for the next 30 years. Accept it and move on.

We will soon be planning for the 50th anniversary of no playoff wins - parades, gifts, oh the memories that will be shared. Then after that, it is chasing that elusive Chicago Cubs futility record. 

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32 minutes ago, I_C_Deadpeople said:

We will soon be planning for the 50th anniversary of no playoff wins - parades, gifts, oh the memories that will be shared. Then after that, it is chasing that elusive Chicago Cubs futility record. 


More power to em! Good to have goals. 

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20 hours ago, sparky151 said:

We won't get Callahan in here. Cleveland won't release him from his contract. If the Bengals wanted him, they could have had him this past offseason.  

 

The good news is that there will be firings by other teams and lots of O-line coaches are better than Turner.

This is the latest pff ratings of the Browns Oline ..

RT Conklin.....82

RG Teller........94

C.   Tretter..... 77

LG.  Bitonio ...84

LT. Willis ........60..rookie

 

Hows that compare to our woeful line?

Only Jonah would start there.

Callahan is teaching techniques..

Turner is incapable of that...

 

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1 hour ago, claptonrocks said:

This is the latest pff ratings of the Browns Oline ..

RT Conklin.....82

RG Teller........94

C.   Tretter..... 77

LG.  Bitonio ...84

LT. Willis ........60..rookie

 

Hows that compare to our woeful line?

Only Jonah would start there.

Callahan is teaching techniques..

Turner is incapable of that...

 

 

Why would he?  Willis is a top 10 pick.  No chance he would start.

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4 minutes ago, UncleEarl said:

 

Why would he?  Willis is a top 10 pick.  No chance he would start.

Only at this juncture...

Willis will be taught correct techniques by Callahan and improve greatly next year..

Jonah will be asked by Turner to gain 25lbs ..and fall off by that stupid move..

Thats all Turner knows...

Bigger the better...really Jim??

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I think there are only 2 Owner/GM's in the NFL.......Mike Brown and Jerry Jones.

 

Mike Brown's Bengals have not won a playoff game since the the beginning of modern NFL Free Agency in 1993.  Although they had the run of playoff games a few years back IIRC every game was a Wild Card game.  We all know the consensus of Mike Brown's leadership.

 

Jerry Jones's Cowboys on the other hand did win early with Jimmy Johnson chosen players and Jimmy and Barry Switzer coaching.  Since that time the Cowboys have played in some playoff games even winning a few at home but never on the road.  The consensus for Jerry is since the mid 1990's he has under performed most of the time...especially compared to the days of the trio of Tom Landry--Tex Schramm--Gil Brandt that were fired or resigned when Jerry bought the team.

 

Mike Brown's cheapness is always used as a primary excuse whether it's small scouting dept, bringing in troubled players, inactive in free agency, etc.  On the other hand Jerry Jones is always a big spender always bringing in supposed expensive big time players.

 

 

I think the problem both is either stubborness, arrogance or ego and it means there is no accountability at the top.  Both make bad decisions then wont change because it reflects on their poor decision making.

 

Nothing will change for either organization until the owners let go and hire someone to be held accountable.  I believe both will be deceased before that happens.

 

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5 minutes ago, westside bengal said:

I think there are only 2 Owner/GM's in the NFL.......Mike Brown and Jerry Jones.

 

Mike Brown's Bengals have not won a playoff game since the the beginning of modern NFL Free Agency in 1993.  Although they had the run of playoff games a few years back IIRC every game was a Wild Card game.  We all know the consensus of Mike Brown's leadership.

 

Jerry Jones's Cowboys on the other hand did win early with Jimmy Johnson chosen players and Jimmy and Barry Switzer coaching.  Since that time the Cowboys have played in some playoff games even winning a few at home but never on the road.  The consensus for Jerry is since the mid 1990's he has under performed most of the time...especially compared to the days of the trio of Tom Landry--Tex Schramm--Gil Brandt that were fired or resigned when Jerry bought the team.

 

Mike Brown's cheapness is always used as a primary excuse whether it's small scouting dept, bringing in troubled players, inactive in free agency, etc.  On the other hand Jerry Jones is always a big spender always bringing in supposed expensive big time players.

 

 

I think the problem both is either stubborness, arrogance or ego and it means there is no accountability at the top.  Both make bad decisions then wont change because it reflects on their poor decision making.

 

Nothing will change for either organization until the owners let go and hire someone to be held accountable.  I believe both will be deceased before that happens.

 

Dont know what that has to do wuth the oline but good post none the less..

Yes both owners are stubborn..

Jerry has had sime damn good olines in Dallas..

Injuries took their toll..

Ive never seen a worse pass defense that what Dallas has now..

 

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2 hours ago, claptonrocks said:

Dont know what that has to do wuth the oline but good post none the less..

Yes both owners are stubborn..

Jerry has had sime damn good olines in Dallas..

Injuries took their toll..

Ive never seen a worse pass defense that what Dallas has now..

 

 True, maybe not directly, and that post might fit just about any topic here.  But the point is I really do not expect much around here to change until Mike is gone so I guess I do not get excited about it anymore.  But we are not alone as I think the majority of Cowboy fans feel the same about Jerry.

 

As I say I will always have Hope that things will be different but it is Faith I lack.

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5 minutes ago, westside bengal said:

 True, maybe not directly, and that post might fit just about any topic here.  But the point is I really do not expect much around here to change until Mike is gone so I guess I do not get excited about it anymore.  But we are not alone as I think the majority of Cowboy fans feel the same about Jerry.

 

As I say I will always have Hope that things will be different but it is Faith I lack.

I understand where your coming from..

Heres hoping for change..

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On 12/2/2020 at 6:28 PM, westside bengal said:

 True, maybe not directly, and that post might fit just about any topic here.  But the point is I really do not expect much around here to change until Mike is gone so I guess I do not get excited about it anymore.  But we are not alone as I think the majority of Cowboy fans feel the same about Jerry.

 

As I say I will always have Hope that things will be different but it is Faith I lack.

 

I guess I can say that if a Bengals HC somehow won a SuperBowl, I don't think Mike Brown would fire him out of jealousy. 

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  • 3 weeks later...

From Louis Riddick via The Athletic:

 

So, you better protect the kid, first and foremost. Which means, how do you keep Jonah Williams healthy? How do you keep him on the field? You have to solidify the interior of this offensive line. Honestly, center-left guard, they are both problems. They just are. I’m sitting here watching the tape in my hotel room right now. They are continuously getting beat at those two positions. They have to be better there. Right tackle, they have to be better there. Is Quinton Spain a decent player? Yeah. But they need to be better across the board. Jonah Williams is really their only offensive lineman and he misses all of 2019 and now ends up on IR. You have to protect him otherwise you have no shot.

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1 hour ago, UncleEarl said:

From Captain Obvious via The Athletic:

 

So, you better protect the kid, first and foremost. Which means, how do you keep Jonah Williams healthy? How do you keep him on the field? You have to solidify the interior of this offensive line. Honestly, center-left guard, they are both problems. They just are. I’m sitting here watching the tape in my hotel room right now. They are continuously getting beat at those two positions. They have to be better there. Right tackle, they have to be better there. Is Quinton Spain a decent player? Yeah. But they need to be better across the board. Jonah Williams is really their only offensive lineman and he misses all of 2019 and now ends up on IR. You have to protect him otherwise you have no shot.

 

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2 hours ago, High School Harry said:

 

Yes we need interior help in the worst way..

I could go with Spain at LG next year but the rest of the interior needs scrapped..

How bout 2nd round taking G Trey Smith from Tennessee? Insert him at RG and we now have two big maulers..

 

 

 

 

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22 minutes ago, claptonrocks said:

Yes we need interior help in the worst way..

I could go with Spain at LG next year but the rest of the interior needs scrapped..

How bout 2nd round taking G Trey Smith from Tennessee? Insert him at RG and we now have two big maulers..

 

 

 

 

I'm not sure Spain is the answer.

Have not seen enough of him.

We still have Xavier S'ua Something

and not sure what we have in him.

Be interesting to see what a new coach could

do with Mike Jordon and even Billy.

Would love a mauler Center, think the guy we have

now could be improved upon, maybe he play OG.

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20 minutes ago, High School Harry said:

I'm not sure Spain is the answer.

Have not seen enough of him.

We still have Xavier S'ua Something

and not sure what we have in him.

Be interesting to see what a new coach could

do with Mike Jordon and even Billy.

Would love a mauler Center, think the guy we have

now could be improved upon, maybe he play OG.

Nit sure on Spain either but Id keep him before the others at G..

Hes had a 70 rating on pass protection

Much of his career then comes here .and has a 50!!.

Im sure by Turner moving him everywhere to stop leaks has played a part in it.. 

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I'd also re-sign Spain. 

 

The way I look at it is we have one of the worst O-lines in the league. If you don't believe your lying eyes, read analysis from PFF or Football Outsiders on where the Bengals rank. We're near the bottom, just like your eyes say.

 

I compare players and coaches to their professional peers and divide the league into quintiles. Quintile 1 is the elite, quintile 5 shouldn't be starting or employed and quintiles 2-4 are above average, average, and below average. My view is that our O-line is even worse than the stats say it is with Burrow and Mixon making plays under pressure. So overall the line is quintile 5. Anyone disagree?

 

 

Turner is a quintile 5 coach, easily bottom 6 and very possibly the single worst O-line coach in the league. That's based on his inability to develop players like Price, his public praise of poor players like Hart and Jordan, and seeming lack of technical skills. Add his record of bullying on top of that and he shouldn't even be employed. 

 

Jonah Williams is basically a rookie this year. He's had good and bad moments. I don't see any elite traits for him but his upside is as a 2. Unfortunately he doesn't seem very durable and if he misses a lot of time, we have to play Adeniji or Johnson in his spot. That lowers Williams' ranking to a 4 for this year. If he stayed healthy, he could have been a 3 with future upside to a 2. 

 

Michael Jordan is a 2nd year player who may still improve with better coaching. But at the moment, he's a 5 and shouldn't be in the lineup. 

 

Trey Hopkins is a try hard guy who's succeeded in going from undrafted rookie free agent to a nice contract. PFF ranked him their 26th best center last year which would be a 5 but it's Christmas time so we'll give him a 4. He could be replaced and upgraded but isn't the biggest liability so will likely start for more seasons. 

 

Alex Redmond is a fringe roster guy who has started several games. He's penalty prone due to lack of natural ability. He's a 5.

 

Quinton Spain is a veteran guard who earned a decent contract in Buffalo then was released during the first year. He's a 3 and has been an improvement at RG.

 

Xavier Sua-Filo is a longtime backup guard who is better at pass protection than run blocking. He's been a career backup for a reason. He's a 4.

 

Bobby Hart was a 7th round draft pick who was cut by the Giants, a team with huge needs on the O-line. Bengals picked him up on waivers, then were forced to start him. Despite poor play, the team re-signed him to a contract that wildly overpays him. He should be a vet min backup for someone, not a starter for anyone. He's a 5. 

 

Billy Price was a 1st round pick who was expected to be the center of the future. He hasn't developed and will be on the team in 2021 because of his guaranteed contract. He's been a disappointment so far but possibly could improve with better coaching. He's a 5.

 

Fred Johnson was picked up from the Pittsburgh practice squad last year. Forced into action he played better than expected at LT. This year he's been very poor and showed why he wasn't on the roster of a team with O-line problems. He's a 5.

 

Hakeem Adeniji was drafted late but has a decent resume. He didn't get on the field much while the team was still playing Burrow but has seem more action lately. He's shown some upside. He's a 5 now but could become a 4, which would be a below average starter but decent backup option. 

 

Let's look at some offseason options:

 

Turner should be replaced. There's no reason to settle for a bad coach when a good coach can be had for less than 1 mil in additional expense. These are pure guesses but I'd guess Zac Taylor is making at least double what he made as Rams QB coach. The OC and DC are likely making less than 1 mil each as they got turned down by a college coach who probably makes more at Florida than the Bengals offered. So let's say 1.5 mil for Taylor and 800K for Callahan and Anarumo. That would put position coaches like Turner around 4-500K. Maybe less for him as he doesn't have options. Someone like Pollak would probably cost 600K based on his prior success in Dallas. He also helped Becton develop in NY. We probably could have signed Bill Callahan for that too so he could work with his son. If Munchak becomes available, he'd likely get a mil or more and that would upset the Bengals low cost salary structure for the coaching staff. 

 

The team will have the money to sign a top tier free agent for the O-line. I wouldn't complain if we signed Trent Williams though he wouldn't be my first choice. He'll likely cost 18 mil or more per year, maybe as much as 22 mil (Tunsil money). He's old but still playing at a decent level. I rate him a 2 at present but with decline likely to a 3. Maybe we go after Alejandro Villanueva who is a free agent for the Stealers. He's had good years in the past but is a 3 now. My preferred course of action would be to sign Joe Thuney for LG and draft Sewell. Thuney is a 1 and will likely seek top tier guard money, about 16 mil per year. Bengals should pay him. Brandon Scherff at RG is also an option. He'll want similar money but has been injury prone. He's a 2 imo.

 

Penei Sewell will likely be available at pick 3. He's a very high upside prospect with great size and physical traits. He's potentially a 1 and is likely to be at least a 3 as a rookie, whether at RT or LT. 

 

So my offseason wish list is to replace Turner with someone who is at least average, ideally with a top coach like Callahan or Munchak. Let's say we get a Pollak caliber coach. That alone should be enough to get the line from near the bottom up a half dozen spots in the rankings. Replace a 5 like Jordan with a 1 in Thuney. Replace a 5 like Hart with a 3 (as a rookie) Sewell and suddenly your worst starter is Hopkins who can concentrate on his assignments instead of covering for Jordan and Redmond. That could be a quintile 2 O-line in 2021 with upside for future years. I'd cut Hart and Finney for cap reasons and keep Jordan, Price, XSF, and Adeniji around for the new coach to work with. Fred Johnson too on vet min. 

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1 hour ago, New Jersey Bengal said:

Awesome post I couldn't agree with you more

Most teams would try and do all of that in one year, Bengals look at it as a 3 year plan. LOL

 

Reasonable analysis. And given two of our main assets are JB and Mixon - we need to pass protect and run block. It actually is that simple. I would tell old Mikey that he can pick all the Ferrari's he wants in rounds 5-7. But up top we pick football players. 

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5 hours ago, sparky151 said:

IMaybe we go after Alejandro Villanueva who is a free agent for the Stealers. He's had good years in the past but is a 3 now.

 

I agree with a lot of what you said but this is plain wrong.  The guy sucks, has always sucked.  Watch any of the old montages of "Steeler O-linemen holding" and he's front and center constantly.  His go-to move has always been "bear hug".  Did you see what happened to him when he tried to block Carl one on one last game?  He looked like a high-schooler.  I don't "keep tabs" on many OL but he's one that I have, simply because he has gotten away with some of the most egregious holding I've ever seen against us.  The only reason I've ever seen given from anyone that we should have any positive thoughts about him at all is "because veteran".  I couldn't give two shits, HE SUCKS.


That is all. 🤐

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I agree that we have a bunch of guys who've performed like 4s and 5s but what would they be with a competent coach? I'd say knock 'em up one level each with a decent coach and with a top notch coach, maybe even more. For example look at this:

 

 

Quote

 

The first three weeks of 2019 saw Hopkins as the highest-graded center in the NFL, according to Pro Football Focus. Things started to dissipate on the offensive line after the team’s colossal collapse agains the Pittsburgh Stealers in Week 4, and while he wasn’t the primary culprit, Hopkins shared some of the blame as well. Communication errors were prevalent with Hopkins and his guards, and they never improved past a marginal point as the season progressed.

In evaluating individual offensive linemen, their performances must be examined in a vacuum. Hopkins remains an effective pass blocker and versatile run blocker that can operate in a scheme-diverse offense. Center is the position where he earned his first big contract, but he can slide in at either guard spot and hold it down as well as most starters in the league.

 

 

 

Translation: he was very good before Turner got ahold of him. "Communication issues" means coaching. He didn't understand Turner's system

 

https://www.cincyjungle.com/2020/6/29/21305699/bengals-player-rankings-no-9-trey-hopkins-texas-longhorns-football

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