The Age of Warming

[bengalrick]

[quote name='ScarletKnight' post='626674' date='Jan 25 2008, 12:30 AM']Ehm? Im not sure what your point is so please explain to me more clearly.

I would also like to mention that my activism...or social action...includes more than recycling and driving a sensible car. I believe that things have to be done on a much larger scale and I have been trying my best to get on board with others who feel the same. I have the luxury of being in college and being in an activist community. I have created an organization on campus among other things, and plan to continue my activism as my life's goal.

Part of what my organization is trying to do is get young adults passionate about politics and take action to make social change. Interestingly enough, aside from my own very strong opinions, the organization is meant to be for the young students. Therefore decisions on what the important issues to attack, raise awareness about, ect...come through those who are members of the organization. I do not hold the wooden gravel. The point of my organization is simply to inspire others to take action for change.[/quote]

movements happen slowly... you have to crawl before you walk... study up on your facts of the other side too, and then disprove them... if you can't, then try to find out why... educate yourself on this subject, b/c it obviously moves you, but keep your mind open... that is how you will truely inspire people...

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='626709' date='Jan 25 2008, 08:57 AM']Couple things...

1.) The desire to inspire others into action is a admireable; taking condicending lanuage with your intended audience is not.

2.) Not only that it's counter productive to inspiring anyone. Think about it, if you insult those who you wish to inspire, do you think they will take you seriously?

3.) While my initial post was in a joking manner it did have a point, in 1978 the US banned the use of chlorofluorocarbons (CFCs) in aerosol out of fear of what it was doing to the ozone. Thus me going out and spraying an aerosol can into the sky would have no effect on the enviorment. I should not have assumed you knew this as you likely weren't even born yet, hell I was only 3. That was an error on my part. (However I still did find humor in the irony of it)

4.) The search for truth should be the utmost goal in everything we do, people lie, people make misguided mistakes, people are bought, some people have enough honor not to be bought. Question everything in searching for the truth, simply following someone blindly out of fear (you fear for your and you family's future) is how we got stuck in this mess in Iraq.

5.) Expect to have people disagree with you, as Bung said the science on this is still not clear, and those who may care as much as you do because of it, may have different opinions reguarding it. However the assumption that they dont care because they dont agree with you and are not taking up your cause is a mistake.[/quote]

great post jamie...

[CatScratchFever]

Do something truly meaningful. Something that will have a direct effect on pollution, global warming, and carbon emissions... guaranteed.

Stop me from driving my behemoth pickup (10mpg on a good day) to work and back every day.

Buy me a Prius.

[ScarletKnight]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='626709' date='Jan 25 2008, 08:57 AM']Couple things...

1.) The desire to inspire others into action is a admireable; taking condicending lanuage with your intended audience is not.

2.) Not only that it's counter productive to inspiring anyone. Think about it, if you insult those who you wish to inspire, do you think they will take you seriously?

3.) While my initial post was in a joking manner it did have a point, in 1978 the US banned the use of chlorofluorocarbons (CFCs) in aerosol out of fear of what it was doing to the ozone. Thus me going out and spraying an aerosol can into the sky would have no effect on the enviorment. I should not have assumed you knew this as you likely weren't even born yet, hell I was only 3. That was an error on my part. (However I still did find humor in the irony of it)

4.) The search for truth should be the utmost goal in everything we do, people lie, people make misguided mistakes, people are bought, some people have enough honor not to be bought. Question everything in searching for the truth, simply following someone blindly out of fear (you fear for your and you family's future) is how we got stuck in this mess in Iraq.

5.) Expect to have people disagree with you, as Bung said the science on this is still not clear, and those who may care as much as you do because of it, may have different opinions reguarding it. However the assumption that they dont care because they dont agree with you and are not taking up your cause is a mistake.[/quote]

First I would like to mention that any post I make seems to get attacked. Even the most uncondicending ones. Secondly, I think its silly to parallel my finding it important to perserve the environment and the Iraq war. I have been against that war from the start. I don't react to scare tactics. I am not "scared" that I will parish by frying to death in the heated climate. I think it is pretty clear that man is destroying the envrionment and again thats with global warming aside (as I've posted many times). I am in no way, shape, or form, following blindly on anything.

I live in New Jersey here, I have seen first hand what humans do to the environment thank you. I've seen acres get torn down and houses, condos, apartments get put up. Ive seen groups of deer get hit in a matter of seconds where their homes have been torn. Ive seen brand new houses flood over the smallest rain because theres no more grass or trees around, just the ground to soak up the water (and by the way that sucks for the people who live in those houses). Not to mention, my town was built around a company responsible for the biggest production of asbestos ( they were still cleaning it out of my high school walls when I was in school...I am assuming you have heard of asbestosis?) AND the town was built on a waste dump of creosote. The government has been cleaning it out for years. One of my friends has become ill because she lived specifically over one of the pools and her family both grew and ate fresh vegetables from their back yard. Lets see, try driving through secaucus where they have all the factories with plumes of smoke constantly pouring into the sky. I don't think there is a worse smell in the world. Its so strong that with all the windows up driving 100 mph down the turnpike won't save you from having to change your clothes after the 5 minute stretch of STANK. I suppose tho, that breathing the fumes is healthy for me and for the earth.

Besides that tho, I think I have emphasized that what bothers me is not so much that people don't "believe" the science as much as it is that people don't do anything. I would assume you see that as a problem...no? I mean democracy isn't just hitting a button when its time to vote...at least thats how I see it.

It amazes me how people can sit around content when there are so many global problems (not pointing any fingers). It also amazes me that those who are motivated to act because they just don't feel right not contributing get more slack than those who sit around when they can be doing something productive. Of course I recognize that there are people who do not have free time, they have bills to pay and mouths to feed, but for most Americans....they can spare the time to do more than participate in useless activities.

You'll have to excuse me, I wasn't trying to inspire anyone on this board. I think that would be impossible, even the most well educated, motivational speaker would have trouble doing that (very obviously). Perhaps you feel as tho my saying people sit on their asses is an attack...well quite possibly....but thats only offensive to those who actually sit on their ass. Perhaps I write too strongly, sorry for not being a dull bulb. Its not my job to make sure and be politically correct and tip toe around everything I say so that I'm not "hurting" anyone's feelings.

Besides that, if someone has a good point I am not afraid to recognize that or agree with it, or change my own perspective. However, I really havn't ran into any...of course thats only my own opinion and very obviously, no one else seems to think that mine are valid either so what can ya say.


[quote name='bengalrick' post='626722' date='Jan 25 2008, 09:51 AM']Which side are you talking about getting paid off? I'd say that since the science isn't there yet, i'd say that both sides are most likely being paid off... how do you know that its more likely that humans are causing the planet EARTH to warm up, than something like the sun? Also, why is mars also warming up? There are not rhetorical questions... if this science is so figured out, why is the tempature on [url="http://www.ocregister.com/ocregister/sciencetech/homepage/article_1643955.php"]mars[/url] also rising? could this be a cycle that the sun is going through? I mean, i'm not saying it is definately the main problem, but it at least does cast a shadow over the "fact" that cars and humans are the main problem that is destroying the planet...



if there is a conspiracy about keeping the global warming craze under wraps, this is the WORST ran conspiracy ever done... the scientists are split... just b/c they can't agree on something as complicated and important as this, does not mean its a conspiracy...



What is the upside to people like Gore? PLEASE!!! he is a GOD to some people now... he is making millions of dollars... he will probably put his name on a company that sells eco-friendly ways to make your company follow his rules of what is eco friendly... and make billions...



I do my part... I am a christian but i don't beat people over the head to agree w/ me on that... i am a huge bengals fan, but if i meet a browns fan i don't start talking about the bengals history and try to change their minds... it turns me off for people to push their agendas on me, but that is me... i am not bashing you for trying to push your agenda though... more power to ya, but i am laughing that i probably know more about global warming than you do... That is b/c i am willing to listen to both sides, where you seem to only listen to your side... truth does matter...[/quote]

First of all, I wasn't calling for a conspiracy. I was saying that UNLESS THERE IS A CONSPIRACY WITH THE US, why are scientists around the world saying that global warming is caused by humans...thats all. Unless everyone in the world is in bed with the Democrats in the U.S. and theres some huge agenda, then we can't make the claim that the science really isnt there because its based on political affiliation.

Id like to also clarify that me talking about global warming isn't "my side." I didn't come up with the science. I didn't make the claims. No I support them. I see more harm in sitting around, then trying to do something to help the situation. Whats worse, doing nothing and its true....or doing something and it being not true? I listen to both sides yes...but I don't just stand in the middle waiting for the ultimate outcome to tell me whats true, not in this case. Don't we use all five senses? If your standing on the train tracks and the ground is shaking and you hear a horn, and you can smell the exhaust, is the train not coming? Or do you have to wait to turn around to see the train before you walk off the tracks? (Of course, if your jumping off the tracks early could mean harming others, then maybe you should wait, but if its of no consequence to others then what do you do?) Those few seconds could mean walking away unharmed or being flattened. To further clarify this point so it doesn't get confused. Thats different than someone saying something is happening and seeing no evidence of it yourself. Then of course you would have to further investigate (just trying to cover all my angles).

I really am not pushing any sort of agenda. My agenda is to have others make a difference....but I am allowed to hold my own opinions and share them with others. You can do whatever you like, it matters not, and you can argue against whatever it is that I say.

Besides if I was pushing an agenda I would find a better place to push it. I just have strong opinions and write strongly and again I don't tiptoe around making sure that everyone is satisfied with my posts so that I don't offend anyone.

[steggyD]

Here's the major issue I have ScarletKnight. We, as humans, adapt. Evolution, we have a challenge, we overcome it, use tools to overcome.

Now say global warming is caused mainly by nature, perhaps the sun itself. Yet we spend all this time fighting corporations to cut things back that have nothing to do with global warming. In the meantime, everyone is dying because of storms, floods, lack of water, etc.

Ok, if my last paragraph happens to be true, shouldn't global warming alarmists be more concerned with evolving as humans to battle global warming instead of battling something that has nothing do do with global warming?

Maybe it's time to accept global warming and look for ways to save us, ways to adapt. Maybe we can't stop it.

[ScarletKnight]

PLUS....this is the only place where I can act craby without reprocussion. I can complain about everything I don't get to complain about in my everyday life to people who will yell back at me. Its nice....going back and forth and making points, always enjoyable for me.

Yeah, you do have a point. If we can't stop it what can we do to help the situation. That is a valid point.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='ScarletKnight' post='627024' date='Jan 25 2008, 10:00 PM']First I would like to mention that any post I make seems to get attacked. Even the most uncondicending ones. Secondly, I think its silly to parallel my finding it important to perserve the environment and the Iraq war. I have been against that war from the start. I don't react to scare tactics. I am not "scared" that I will parish by frying to death in the heated climate. I think it is pretty clear that man is destroying the envrionment and again thats with global warming aside (as I've posted many times). I am in no way, shape, or form, following blindly on anything.

I live in New Jersey here, I have seen first hand what humans do to the environment thank you. I've seen acres get torn down and houses, condos, apartments get put up. Ive seen groups of deer get hit in a matter of seconds where their homes have been torn. Ive seen brand new houses flood over the smallest rain because theres no more grass or trees around, just the ground to soak up the water (and by the way that sucks for the people who live in those houses). Not to mention, my town was built around a company responsible for the biggest production of asbestos ( they were still cleaning it out of my high school walls when I was in school...I am assuming you have heard of asbestosis?) AND the town was built on a waste dump of creosote. The government has been cleaning it out for years. One of my friends has become ill because she lived specifically over one of the pools and her family both grew and ate fresh vegetables from their back yard. Lets see, try driving through secaucus where they have all the factories with plumes of smoke constantly pouring into the sky. I don't think there is a worse smell in the world. Its so strong that with all the windows up driving 100 mph down the turnpike won't save you from having to change your clothes after the 5 minute stretch of STANK. I suppose tho, that breathing the fumes is healthy for me and for the earth.

Besides that tho, I think I have emphasized that what bothers me is not so much that people don't "believe" the science as much as it is that people don't do anything. I would assume you see that as a problem...no? I mean democracy isn't just hitting a button when its time to vote...at least thats how I see it.

It amazes me how people can sit around content when there are so many global problems (not pointing any fingers). It also amazes me that those who are motivated to act because they just don't feel right not contributing get more slack than those who sit around when they can be doing something productive. Of course I recognize that there are people who do not have free time, they have bills to pay and mouths to feed, but for most Americans....they can spare the time to do more than participate in useless activities.

You'll have to excuse me, I wasn't trying to inspire anyone on this board. I think that would be impossible, even the most well educated, motivational speaker would have trouble doing that (very obviously). Perhaps you feel as tho my saying people sit on their asses is an attack...well quite possibly....but thats only offensive to those who actually sit on their ass. Perhaps I write too strongly, sorry for not being a dull bulb. Its not my job to make sure and be politically correct and tip toe around everything I say so that I'm not "hurting" anyone's feelings.

Besides that, if someone has a good point I am not afraid to recognize that or agree with it, or change my own perspective. However, I really havn't ran into any...of course thats only my own opinion and very obviously, no one else seems to think that mine are valid either so what can ya say.




First of all, I wasn't calling for a conspiracy. I was saying that UNLESS THERE IS A CONSPIRACY WITH THE US, why are scientists around the world saying that global warming is caused by humans...thats all. Unless everyone in the world is in bed with the Democrats in the U.S. and theres some huge agenda, then we can't make the claim that the science really isnt there because its based on political affiliation.

Id like to also clarify that me talking about global warming isn't "my side." I didn't come up with the science. I didn't make the claims. No I support them. I see more harm in sitting around, then trying to do something to help the situation. Whats worse, doing nothing and its true....or doing something and it being not true? I listen to both sides yes...but I don't just stand in the middle waiting for the ultimate outcome to tell me whats true, not in this case. Don't we use all five senses? If your standing on the train tracks and the ground is shaking and you hear a horn, and you can smell the exhaust, is the train not coming? Or do you have to wait to turn around to see the train before you walk off the tracks? (Of course, if your jumping off the tracks early could mean harming others, then maybe you should wait, but if its of no consequence to others then what do you do?) Those few seconds could mean walking away unharmed or being flattened. To further clarify this point so it doesn't get confused. Thats different than someone saying something is happening and seeing no evidence of it yourself. Then of course you would have to further investigate (just trying to cover all my angles).

I really am not pushing any sort of agenda. My agenda is to have others make a difference....but I am allowed to hold my own opinions and share them with others. You can do whatever you like, it matters not, and you can argue against whatever it is that I say.

Besides if I was pushing an agenda I would find a better place to push it. I just have strong opinions and write strongly and again I don't tiptoe around making sure that everyone is satisfied with my posts so that I don't offend anyone.[/quote]


Your right comments like

"I am assuming however, that most Americans will be watching footbal. Which, is obviously way more important." or "Unfortunately, they just sit on their asses doing nothing.. "

are not at all condacending.

The problem with both is that you made assumptions about people whom you know next to nothing about. When you do take that tone, and then are supprised when that tone is taken back with you, and seemingly upset by it then Im not even sure what to say to you.

You then go on to say "Instead, my concern is for myself and the future of my children/family...so on." ... What is this concerm bread from? Fear, fear of the future, otherwise why be concern? The comparison to iraq is that we are there because a good portion of our population accepted it out of fear of terrorism, your accepting of science that is still under debate, is bred from fear of the future.

Also when people provided information that doesnt quite jive with your worldview on this you again insult their intellegence with what really amounts to "bush lied, the planet died", when this debate has been going on long before Bush was even president.

You also insult their ability to be objective with "am not going to search the internet and bring up some website to prove my case...as easy as that is to do, especially since that is common practice on here." essentaly dismissing other viewpoints which is pretty much what you accuse other of.

If your goal isnt to inspire then why say, "Perhaps you can tell me the secret to getting people inspired to take action." or "The point of my organization is simply to inspire others to take action for change."?

Im not sure what to say to you if you cant read those words and understand how one might take them.

[ScarletKnight]

Well I'm not really crying over it...so why should you?

If I was worried about being condecending then I would carefully go over my posts and take out anything I could see as being interpreted as such. I do not see myself as "better" or more "superior" than others, but if it comes accross that way...well whatever. You'd have to have a serious discussion with me in person to decide that, and, I assure you that you would be shocked as all hell at how nice I am....seriously, lol.

Also, you interpet concern or compassion with fear. I am not "scared straight," I just always thought it was our job (meaning humans as a species) to make this planet a more comfortable and better place for the people who live on it. That means for people in both the present and the future. Preserving the environment would fall under that category for me.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='ScarletKnight' post='627052' date='Jan 26 2008, 12:19 AM']Well I'm not really crying over it...so why should you?

If I was worried about being condecending then I would carefully go over my posts and take out anything I could see as being interpreted as such. I do not see myself as "better" or more "superior" than others, but if it comes accross that way...well whatever. You'd have to have a serious discussion with me in person to decide that, and, [color="#FF0000"]I assure you that you would be shocked as all hell at how nice I am[/color]....seriously, lol.

Also, you interpet concern or compassion with fear. I am not "scared straight," I just always thought it was our job (meaning humans as a species) to make this planet a more comfortable and better place for the people who live on it. That means for people in both the present and the future. Preserving the environment would fall under that category for me.[/quote]


No I wouldnt, because I have met you and have said you seemed nice. I told dan something to the effect "hold on to that one she seems like a sweetie"


As far as the compassion thing, I agree thats a good thing, however if one doesnt agree with this stuff after doing their own research, does that make them less compassionate?

[BengalBacker]

This is a joke. Don't get pissed.
























[img]http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/9955/dbnjxt5.jpg[/img]

[ScarletKnight]

First of all, Dan isn't some shrinking violet here. If I were to go overboard with him he wouldn't stand in a corner with his tail between his legs. We have political arguments frequently and yes they used to get heated, but now we have learned to agree to disagree lol.

And Jamie, I was not trying to say that if someone doesn't agree with me then they are not compassionate. I was simply telling you that I do not respond to scare tactics as a motivation for my actions.

What I am talking about isn't all or nothing anyway. I did not say if you aren't doing what I am doing than your an idiot...or at least that isn't what I was trying to say. I just put faith in people to stand for something (whatever that may be) and take action. Whether that be for the environment, or for victims of domestic violence, or disastor relief....it matters not to me. It just bothers me when people do nothing. I have conversations all the time with people who just do not care. I am constantly reading and hearing news stories and I just ask myself why no one does anything. After a while it starts to bother a very conscious person.

On a major thruway in my county, the state plans to allow tandem trucks (doubled up 16 wheelers) to now use the road...where before they could not. A few towns did not want this to pass because this road already has some of the worst traffic in the area, not to mention constant car accidents. An article was written in the paper that if you were against it to go to a meeting or write a letter to the state. Well two weeks later another article in the paper said that only three people wrote letters and no one showed up to the town meeting. Yet, everyone I know was complaining about what the road would be like if tandem trucks were driving around. The ironic part is that they won't have to wait too long because their inaction is the reason that now there will be tandem trucks on that road. It was as simple as writing a letter or showing support....if enough people did it...then theres a chance the tandem trucks would have been held at bay. That is what I am talking about.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='ScarletKnight' post='627132' date='Jan 26 2008, 12:16 PM']First of all, Dan isn't some shrinking violet here. If I were to go overboard with him he wouldn't stand in a corner with his tail between his legs. We have political arguments frequently and yes they used to get heated, but now we have learned to agree to disagree lol.

And Jamie, I was not trying to say that if someone doesn't agree with me then they are not compassionate. I was simply telling you that I do not respond to scare tactics as a motivation for my actions.

What I am talking about isn't all or nothing anyway. I did not say if you aren't doing what I am doing than your an idiot...or at least that isn't what I was trying to say. I just put faith in people to stand for something (whatever that may be) and take action. Whether that be for the environment, or for victims of domestic violence, or disastor relief....it matters not to me. It just bothers me when people do nothing. I have conversations all the time with people who just do not care. I am constantly reading and hearing news stories and I just ask myself why no one does anything. After a while it starts to bother a very conscious person.

On a major thruway in my county, the state plans to allow tandem trucks (doubled up 16 wheelers) to now use the road...where before they could not. A few towns did not want this to pass because this road already has some of the worst traffic in the area, not to mention constant car accidents. An article was written in the paper that if you were against it to go to a meeting or write a letter to the state. Well two weeks later another article in the paper said that only three people wrote letters and no one showed up to the town meeting. Yet, everyone I know was complaining about what the road would be like if tandem trucks were driving around. The ironic part is that they won't have to wait too long because their inaction is the reason that now there will be tandem trucks on that road. It was as simple as writing a letter or showing support....if enough people did it...then theres a chance the tandem trucks would have been held at bay. That is what I am talking about.[/quote]


I understand the frustration. I used to run a charity of the month on this site, and ended up stopping because there were only so many charites I know about and give to, and ended up only having a handfull of people sending me names of charities they donate to, so I totally get the frustration. However I think the mistake here is that those who post in this section of the site do care, otherwise they wouldnt bring up the issues at all. We just have major disagrements in what to do, and what truly are problems and what should be the priorities.

However what Im speaking about isnt so much that let me give you an example. A few months ago I was doing some research into ethonoal, I had thought this was the silver bullet to get us off of being dependent on oil, and it would help the enviorment to boot because ethonol burns cleaner than oil, and it's working in Brazil. A win win right? Well no, after looking deeper into it the ethonol we are using in the US is corn based, in Brazil they use sugarcane there are major differences between corn and sugarcane, and were not really equip as a country to use sugar like we are corn, but corn isnt a good solution. So we need to look at something else, well the technology for alterntive fuels like hydrogen arent really mature yet, and hybrids are too expensive for the average consumer.

The other problem here is that there are folks that dont agree with you reguarding how responsible we are for the things going on in the envoirment, but do agree with you concerning our dependance on oil and how it could cripple our economy and hurt us internationally for what we are willing to do to get it. So when we suggest "what about drilling in alaska?" as a possible solution, as it would be temporary untill the technologies for alternate fuel are mature and affordable for the average consumer, and it gets met with "your ruining the enviorment", well...

I dont think the issue is that people dont care, I think the issue is that they are so overloaded with conflicting information that they would rather not do anything because whatever they do is wrong according to some group out there. Which is why I said the persuit of truth is the most important thing in everything we do. Well not everyone is equip to know the best ways to do that, and there are arguments out there that while are false, are pretty convincing.

Personally the best fight any of us could do is to convince those in power to not be bought, and to be truthfull so that we can do the best thing for all of us. However the current political system doesnt allow for much of that and we as a polulace get so caught up in stupid things that dont matter to our survival and what is best for us that were only hurting ourselves. I mean look at how we say things like "Kusinich is too short to be president" or "McCain is too old", do either of those things really matter? No. There was once a time in this country were we didnt get caught up in those things, hell we once had a president that was confined to a wheelchair. Do you think he would stand a chance in today's current political climate? No, you would get people who are caught up in those things saying "how do we look tough on terrorism with a president in a wheelchair".

Its why I think so many are enamored with Ron Paul, because he seems to at least tell us the truth, even if I think he is misguided in his thoughts on free market ecnomics.

But the issue here in my eyes is we have cracks in our system of goverment that allow those who run it to start off as well meaning and end up just being bought. That is the biggest issue we face as a country, because if we could fix that we could fix ALOT of things.

But how do we fix that?.... I just dont know.

[Xombie]

Well, if I may add my very humble 2 cents into the fray, I would like to interject that the 'normal' global temperature throughout the planet's life has been vastly warmer than it is now... Hell, by a definition I found, we are still, technically, in an ice age (imnh.isu.edu/digitalatlas/glossary/letter.asp), that ice ages can last millions of years while the most current one started less than 50,000 years ago. and that, if looked upon with a moderately biased eye, global warming could be used advantageously... More applicable farm land and more applicable living areas could lend itself to reducing overpopulization concerns, urban sprawl, world hunger, and overall better living conditions if utilized correctly.

[Jason]

[quote name='ScarletKnight' post='626646' date='Jan 24 2008, 10:43 PM']If I am not mistaken [b]isn't the theory that global warming will cause global cooling?[/b] Theres a processes to the whole thing, of course thats what I hear.[/quote]

Then why the hell are we worried about it at all? It will fix itself.

Problem solved.

[|Bunghole|]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='627157' date='Jan 26 2008, 12:29 PM'][b]The other problem here is that there are folks that dont agree with you reguarding how responsible we are for the things going on in the envoirment, but do agree with you concerning our dependance on oil and how it could cripple our economy and hurt us internationally for what we are willing to do to get it. So when we suggest "what about drilling in alaska?" as a possible solution, as it would be temporary untill the technologies for alternate fuel are mature and affordable for the average consumer, and it gets met with "your ruining the enviorment", well...

I dont think the issue is that people dont care, I think the issue is that they are so overloaded with conflicting information that they would rather not do anything because whatever they do is wrong according to some group out there. Which is why I said the persuit of truth is the most important thing in everything we do. Well not everyone is equip to know the best ways to do that, and there are arguments out there that while are false, are pretty convincing.[/b][/quote]
Well said here. Oil literally is ingrained in so many processes in our lives that it is going to take decades to allow for technological and political as well as corporate will to succumb to the inevitable shift away from petroleum-based fuels and products.
Government intervention on this point right now should exist to incentivize private research into alternate fuel systems that take advantage of our current infrastructure, while securing enough resources in petroleum to allow this to be as smooth a transition as possible. People bitch about "no blood for oil", but it's a reality that we should confront and learn to handle as quickly and in as much of a humanitarian way as possible.
Convincing and incentivizing automakers alone to spend money on altering their manufacturing processes and pouring money into R&D for this purpose is a huge political feat in and of itself.

[|Bunghole|]

And Dan's new nickname is now "Shrinking Violet"
Conjures up the "Shrinkage" episode of Seinfeld to me....

[rudi32]

ignor that it came from fox, but what he says about global warming is right on

[Go Tory Go!]

I consider myself someone with environmentalist leanings, and I hate talk of global warming because

a) there are too many variables and differing views in the scientific community for the cause of climate change to decisively quantify our impact, and
b') people seem to take their lack of belief in the phenomenon of human-exacerbated climate change as a reason to dismiss concern over their consumption and emissions, as if it is the only reason to do so.

In short, I hate the old bait-and-switch of people 'discrediting' global warming, and then using their doing so to marginalize environmentalism or natural resource conservation.

In my opinion, a problem with practical implications is simply the combination of a finite quantity of petrol here, rising needs in the US and (particularly) abroad, and the maximum rate at which oil can be extracted from the ground at any cost is going to peak much sooner than we'd like (and will decrease after reaching this peak). Without large-scale planning, an energy shortage will hit hard and affect civilized life in almost every possible way. Part of this planning is technological development; some developments - for instance, energy conservation technologies, or the ability to effectively utilize oil sands - will postpone the inevitable date when petrol demand exceeds possible supply. I agree with Bunghole on the role governments can play in this process, acting as catalysts for such developments. However, it is the aware populace's responsibility to maintain often out-of-vogue long term focus in the government, and to likewise realise that this issue is more pressing than most would like to believe.

I know I've posted sentiments similar to this before, but since this thread and others like it are broken records, well, I'm back.

[steggyD]

Well, yeah, most people with half a brain agree with the peak-oil issues. It's the global warming that I doubt.

So what do we do? I wish I could formulate a better answer, but science is not my subject.

[hocuspocus]

[quote name='steggyD' post='628962' date='Feb 1 2008, 01:03 AM']Well, yeah, most people with half a brain agree with the peak-oil issues. It's the global warming that I doubt.

So what do we do? I wish I could formulate a better answer, but science is not my subject.[/quote]


Regardless of the arguments on global warming the truth is we are doing an awful lot. Thanks to the badgering of alarmists and reactionaries we now must witness every company's 'green initiative' and the like.

We're already one of the most efficient and regulated countries on earth - from our appliances, to our cars and soon to our light bulbs. Some of the following is from NRO online but 100% factual which you skeptics can cross verify on your own.

Most readers have by now encountered the Compact Fluorescent Lightbulb (CFL), that annoying helical replacement for the traditional bulb. CFLs are slow to come on, do not respond to dimmer switches, emit low buzzing sounds, collide with your lampshades, make you come out green in photographs, and contain enough mercury to make disposal an environmental issue. It is therefore not surprising to learn that Congress has made CFLs mandatory — at any rate, our legislators have passed, and our president signed, an energy bill setting energy-efficiency standards for light bulbs that traditional bulbs cannot meet. The new standards will phase in over two years, 2012 to 2014, after which the U.S. will be a flickering, buzzing, green-tinted city on a hill. Remember the low-flush toilets mandated by the 1992 energy bill? The ones that have a 1.6-gallon tank in place of the old 3.5-gallon one, thereby saving water? Except that you have to flush the darn thing three times to get the job done? Until in desperation you track down the one plumber in your town who can get and install a contraband 3.5-gallon flusher for you? You’d better hope that plumber has a brother who’s an electrician.


The real positive steps are in alternate energy and I'd say incentives and tax breaks to develop these along with increasing fuel prices will give us all opportunity to move off oil dependence which is the first key. People do not give Bush any credit on this - little forgotten fact is it was his 2001 SOTU (or maybe 2002) where he announced funds and tax breaks for research on alternate fuels. It no coincidence that shortly after the was a spike in development (development costs money for all of you socialist out there) and actual product launches from Toyota. This is a good path and will continue.

[Go Tory Go!]

[quote name='hocuspocus' post='628995' date='Feb 1 2008, 09:09 AM']Regardless of the arguments on global warming the truth is we are doing an awful lot. Thanks to the badgering of alarmists and reactionaries we now must witness every company's 'green initiative' and the like.

We're already one of the most efficient and regulated countries on earth - from our appliances, to our cars and soon to our light bulbs. Some of the following is from NRO online but 100% factual which you skeptics can cross verify on your own.

Most readers have by now encountered the Compact Fluorescent Lightbulb (CFL), that annoying helical replacement for the traditional bulb. CFLs are slow to come on, do not respond to dimmer switches, emit low buzzing sounds, collide with your lampshades, make you come out green in photographs, and contain enough mercury to make disposal an environmental issue. It is therefore not surprising to learn that Congress has made CFLs mandatory — at any rate, our legislators have passed, and our president signed, an energy bill setting energy-efficiency standards for light bulbs that traditional bulbs cannot meet. The new standards will phase in over two years, 2012 to 2014, after which the U.S. will be a flickering, buzzing, green-tinted city on a hill. Remember the low-flush toilets mandated by the 1992 energy bill? The ones that have a 1.6-gallon tank in place of the old 3.5-gallon one, thereby saving water? Except that you have to flush the darn thing three times to get the job done? Until in desperation you track down the one plumber in your town who can get and install a contraband 3.5-gallon flusher for you? You’d better hope that plumber has a brother who’s an electrician.


The real positive steps are in alternate energy and I'd say incentives and tax breaks to develop these along with increasing fuel prices will give us all opportunity to move off oil dependence which is the first key. People do not give Bush any credit on this - little forgotten fact is it was his 2001 SOTU (or maybe 2002) where he announced funds and tax breaks for research on alternate fuels. It no coincidence that shortly after the was a spike in development (development costs money for all of you socialist out there) and actual product launches from Toyota. This is a good path and will continue.[/quote]

Due to rather unfortunate circumstances, I recently have had a subscription to the rag "The New Republic" thrust upon me. In the fleeting moments between the time a certain recent issue entered my mailbox and landed in the recycle bin, I read an article lamenting the same inconveniences with the CFL bulbs. Firstly, before their full-scale implementation, they are bound to improve, just as they have improved recent years. In fact, the 'flickering, buzzing' stigma is hardly appropriate anymore, but is just a relic in the popular psyche that is easy to appeal to. The 'New Republic' article even went so far as to bitch about the price, when CFLs actually save money by using less electricity and lasting much longer. As for the 'green tint' in the photographs, caused by different color temperatures of fluorescent bulbs? I wouldn't be surprised if the dinosaur who wrote this clip is still shooting with film, but it is easily corrected in film cameras by either buying the appropriate film type or placing a filter over the lens. Anyone shooting digital should have the white-balance correction made automatically, or else they can make the simple manual adjustment.


As for your commendation of bush...I, too, like what he says about alternative energy development in the State of the Union addresses; I just didn't like what he actually does. The 2006 address was particularly deceptive; just days after talking about the huge importance of developing new technologies and alternative fuel sources, the release of his new budget showed he slashed the Dept. of Energy budget by $50 million in these energy efficiency and renewable energy programs.

From the NY Times, [url="http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/02/politics/02energy.html?_r=1&pagewanted=2&ei=5094&en=884f904a8b1146b8&hp&ex=1138942800&partner=homepage&oref=slogin"]Feb. 2nd, 2006[/url]:

[quote]The Energy Department will begin laying off researchers at the National Renewable Energy Laboratory in the next week or two because of cuts to its budget.

A veteran researcher said the staff had been told that the cuts would be concentrated among researchers in wind and biomass, which includes ethanol. Those are two of the technologies that Mr. Bush cited on Tuesday night as holding the promise to replace part of the nation's oil imports.[/quote]

The irony is...disgusting. Don't be fleeced by bush. Political talk of technology is easy, because the promise of a perfect and easy transition to a new technology is sexy and ideal. Nobody wants to be caught talking about more realistic and sensible realities such as government regulation to promote conservation.

And your Toyota bit... the Prius was released in 1997 in Japan, worldwide in 2001. I don't know if you're crediting anything bush did in the release of the Prius, but any such link is purely coincidental.

[hocuspocus]

[quote name='Go Tory Go!' post='629123' date='Feb 1 2008, 03:42 PM']Due to rather unfortunate circumstances, I recently have had a subscription to the rag "The New Republic" thrust upon me. In the fleeting moments between the time a certain recent issue entered my mailbox and landed in the recycle bin, I read an article lamenting the same inconveniences with the CFL bulbs. Firstly, before their full-scale implementation, they are bound to improve, just as they have improved recent years. In fact, the 'flickering, buzzing' stigma is hardly appropriate anymore, but is just a relic in the popular psyche that is easy to appeal to. The 'New Republic' article even went so far as to bitch about the price, when CFLs actually save money by using less electricity and lasting much longer. As for the 'green tint' in the photographs, caused by different color temperatures of fluorescent bulbs? I wouldn't be surprised if the dinosaur who wrote this clip is still shooting with film, but it is easily corrected in film cameras by either buying the appropriate film type or placing a filter over the lens. Anyone shooting digital should have the white-balance correction made automatically, or else they can make the simple manual adjustment.


As for your commendation of bush...I, too, like what he says about alternative energy development in the State of the Union addresses; I just didn't like what he actually does. The 2006 address was particularly deceptive; just days after talking about the huge importance of developing new technologies and alternative fuel sources, the release of his new budget showed he slashed the Dept. of Energy budget by $50 million in these energy efficiency and renewable energy programs.

From the NY Times, [url="http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/02/politics/02energy.html?_r=1&pagewanted=2&ei=5094&en=884f904a8b1146b8&hp&ex=1138942800&partner=homepage&oref=slogin"]Feb. 2nd, 2006[/url]:



The irony is...disgusting. Don't be fleeced by bush. Political talk of technology is easy, because the promise of a perfect and easy transition to a new technology is sexy and ideal. Nobody wants to be caught talking about more realistic and sensible realities such as government regulation to promote conservation.

And your Toyota bit... the Prius was released in 1997 in Japan, worldwide in 2001. I don't know if you're crediting anything bush did in the release of the Prius, but any such link is purely coincidental.[/quote]

All duly noted and fair enough. I think too that improvements will come for the light. That is one good thing about all of this is it will breed some innovation. As to the Prius - no attempt to give credit to bush - just that the US and companies began to open up and accept the develop and consequent purchase after the goals were set for efficiency guidelines and theh tax breaks for companies to develop and sell as well as the tax break for individuals to buy helped to make the existing Toyota product a viable seller in US. Among other things, like California.

Now are you positive that Bush did not at least design the Prius? Only govt could come up with something so unattractive... but the eye of the beholder as they say.

[Go Tory Go!]

[quote name='hocuspocus' post='629127' date='Feb 1 2008, 04:05 PM']Now are you positive that Bush did not at least design the Prius? Only [u]govt[/u] [color="#FF0000"]the Japanese[/color] could come up with something so unattractive... but the eye of the beholder as they say.[/quote]

They look a little odd, but I want one! The early body designs looked really poor, and I hate how the Honda Insight looks, but the new ones are starting to look more like regular old cars again. The smug pollution is still a problem though.

[img]http://www.partyofone.ca/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/thaaannks.jpg[/img]

"Gooooood for Yooouuu!"

[-GoBengals-]

why do i have to pay for city water? why not just include it in my taxes?

thats annoying... and city water is nasty.

[CincyInDC]

[quote name='Go Tory Go!' post='629140' date='Feb 1 2008, 04:35 PM']They look a little odd, but I want one! The early body designs looked really poor, and I hate how the Honda Insight looks, but the new ones are starting to look more like regular old cars again. The smug pollution is still a problem though.

[img]http://www.partyofone.ca/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/thaaannks.jpg[/img]

"Gooooood for Yooouuu!"[/quote]

I rent/drive a hybrid from time to time (see [url="http://www.zipcar.com"]http://www.zipcar.com[/url]). It can be irritating because simply lifting off the accelerator engages the electric brake/battery charger, so it takes a little getting used to. I don't have the smug problem as much because I pay a flat rate per hour (gasoline, insurance included).


[quote name='GoBengals' post='629143' date='Feb 1 2008, 04:39 PM']why do i have to pay for city water? why not just include it in my taxes?

thats annoying... and city water is nasty.[/quote]

Shit, my city water is full of lead!

[|Bunghole|]

Cincinnati has some of the cleanest municipal water in the country. Buy a water softener and/or a reverse osmosis filter if you want to purify it further.
Bottled water is the biggest waste of money there is, and it's more expensive than gasoline.