Mike vs. Marvin

[oldschooler]

[url="http://news.Cincinnati.Com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?Category=zagform&Destination=http%253A//cincinnati.com/blogs/ludwig/2010/07/21/mike-vs-marvin/"][b][size="5"]Mike vs. Marvin[/size][/b][/url][b][size="5"]
[/size][/b]Posted by [email="chickludwig@yahoo.com"]cludwig[/email] July 21st, 2010, 10:39 am


I'm not surprised whatsoever that Cincinnati Bengals head coach Marvin Ronald Lewis doesn't have a contract beyond the 2010 season.

It takes two to tango and it's clear that neither Bengals president Mike Brown nor Lewis is willing to budge right now.

They resemble a high school couple at a Saturday night sock hop in the gym or cafeteria. They like one another, and speak with each other all the time, but neither is willing to approach the other for a dance … slow or fast. Maybe Chad Ochocinco should intervene.

History shows that Brown doesn't like to make moves until he has to — or wants to.

Examples:

After an original seven-year contract (1997-2003) with Georgetown College, followed by a two-year extension (2004-05), the Bengals are going year by year with Georgetown as the Bengals' summer home.

Not wanting to see Ochocinco go to free agency, Brown gave Chad a $35.5 million contract extension in April 2006 that lasts through 2010 with a club option for 2011.

History also shows that Lewis likes power.

Marvelous Marvinnati didn't just rearrange the furniture when he arrived in 2003. He redecorated. He overhauled. He made additions through subtracting.

There's a commanding presence about Lewis that tells you he's the man in charge. When he walks into a room, he believes he's the smartest guy in the joint. He's willing to work with management, but refuses to be anybody's puppet. That's what I like about him.

So we're dealing with two strong-willed, hard-headed men here and something's gotta give. That something is … (drum roll here) … change. And that's sad because it doesn't have to be this way.

Lewis is the reigning NFL Coach of the Year. He's guided the Bengals to two playoff appearances in seven years. He took over a 2-14 team in 2003 and made it relevant — even respected — again.

An extension should've been done a long time ago. And it should definitely be done by now, especially on the eve of the team's arrival in Georgetown on July 28 — a week from today.

Brown's "wait and see" posture on Lewis is a huge gamble.

If the Bengals reach the playoffs again — I believe they have enough talent to make the Super Bowl — Lewis' price tag skyrockets. If the Bengals' bomb, they'll likely be in the market for a new head coach. (I'm secretly rooting for Mike Zimmer.)



(Click the link below for the entire article)


[url="http://cincinnati.com/blogs/ludwig/2010/07/21/mike-vs-marvin/?GID=AlKX1bMwZPlGVcIIQTKmX6O3Gehy3qOoeISXzfNZcsE%3D"]http://cincinnati.com/blogs/ludwig/2010/07/21/mike-vs-marvin/?GID=AlKX1bMwZPlGVcIIQTKmX6O3Gehy3qOoeISXzfNZcsE%3D[/url]

[Bengals1181]

that was almost a half-decent blog post by Chick.

[Patmo]

Well ! The Chickster comes through with a solid opinion.

If anybody will ever out-manuever Mike, it'll be Marvin. Marvin's future as an employable coach is solid at this point . He's established it through hard work,organization and the ability to communicate as evidenced by the stability of personnel on his staff.It's taken awhile thanks to Mike's patience and loyalty but now Marvin is dealing through strength which he'll use to gain more power . If Mike doesn't acquiesce to Marvins' desire to control personnel, Marvin's gone. Totally up to Mike at this point.

I don't like some of Marvin's game time calls but imo, he's the best Bengals coach since Paul Brown. If he wants to continue coaching in Cincinnati, it's Mikes's call. There's irony here. Marvin had the benefit of woirking for Mike,the redeemer , and Marvin knows it. Mike paid for Marvin's on the job training . Without Mike, Marvin would have never made it through 8 years of coaching in one city with basically the same staff of pro assistants . As a result Marvin has the leverage while Mike for once doesn't have the control . If Marvin stays, Mike is relieved of any fan pressure. If Marvin leaves, Mike will bare the brunt of fan(and season ticket holders) rage.

Will Mike finally surrender some of his power ? Only Mike knows. We'll see . My bet is that Mike won't change his ways. Both men are strong personalities with stronger beliefs. . That's good but it could end up costing this franchise. Both guys subscribe to the mafia saying " it's not personal,it's business " . Unfortunately , a business decision will be the root of any decision. I sure hope this people work it out.This franchise is set up for a very good playoff run of around 3 years. A change at this point is not helpful.

Of one fact I'm sure . If they both part ways , it will be with mutual respect and a life long friendship.

[bengaled]

[quote name='Patmo' date='22 July 2010 - 12:54 PM' timestamp='1279817668' post='898319']
Well ! The Chickster comes through with a solid opinion.

If anybody will ever out-manuever Mike, it'll be Marvin. Marvin's future as an employable coach is solid at this point . He's established it through hard work,organization and the ability to communicate as evidenced by the stability of personnel on his staff.It's taken awhile thanks to Mike's patience and loyalty but now Marvin is dealing through strength which he'll use to gain more power . If Mike doesn't acquiesce to Marvins' desire to control personnel, Marvin's gone. Totally up to Mike at this point.

I don't like some of Marvin's game time calls but imo, he's the best Bengals coach since Paul Brown. If he wants to continue coaching in Cincinnati, it's Mikes's call. There's irony here. Marvin had the benefit of woirking for Mike,the redeemer , and Marvin knows it. Mike paid for Marvin's on the job training . Without Mike, Marvin would have never made it through 8 years of coaching in one city with basically the same staff of pro assistants . As a result Marvin has the leverage while Mike for once doesn't have the control . If Marvin stays, Mike is relieved of any fan pressure. If Marvin leaves, Mike will bare the brunt of fan(and season ticket holders) rage.

Will Mike finally surrender some of his power ? Only Mike knows. We'll see . My bet is that Mike won't change his ways. Both men are strong personalities with stronger beliefs. . That's good but it could end up costing this franchise. Both guys subscribe to the mafia saying " it's not personal,it's business " . Unfortunately , a business decision will be the root of any decision. I sure hope this people work it out.This franchise is set up for a very good playoff run of around 3 years. A change at this point is not helpful.

Of one fact I'm sure . If they both part ways , it will be with mutual respect and a life long friendship.
[/quote]


pretty good analysis, patmo. marvin can go anywhere and get another head coaching job, and probably for a lot more money and more control. mike's a fucking idiot if he blows this one. marvin is the best thing that could happen to mike's tarnished legacy and he damned well ought to be aware of that. maybe he does. it's something (his legacy) i'm certain he cares about.

[Patmo]

[quote name='bengaled' date='22 July 2010 - 01:11 PM' timestamp='1279818709' post='898327']
pretty good analysis, patmo. marvin can go anywhere and get another head coaching job, and probably for a lot more money and more control. mike's a fucking idiot if he blows this one. marvin is the best thing that could happen to mike's tarnished legacy and he damned well ought to be aware of that. maybe he does. it's something (his legacy) i'm certain he cares about.
[/quote]
Couple of hard heads, Ed. You've pointed out bsomething that I thought about but didn't state. Mike is 74 I believe and this is his final shot a fielding a winner. Will his legacy be that he's a rigid, intractible owner or a guy that could be flexible at an advanced age and do the right thing .

[jmckbengal]

I wonder how much input Katie has? IMHO she had much to do about bringing Marvin to Cincy, but how much control is she willing to give up, is the question.

[bengaled]

[quote name='jmckbengal' date='22 July 2010 - 01:40 PM' timestamp='1279820458' post='898332']
I wonder how much input Katie has? IMHO she had much to do about bringing Marvin to Cincy, but how much control is she willing to give up, is the question.
[/quote]


i don't think katie's day to day functions are at issue, moreso daddy's.

[sparky151]

Back when Marvin was hired, Katie was his chief advocate. Mike seemed to like Coughlin better, at least according to the papers. If no extension is reached, Marvin won't lack for options. Mike would probably go with Zimmer if the defense has a good season, and give Zimmer the right to choose his assistants but not the personnel guys.

[-GoBengals-]

lewis price tag skyrockets? to what? 50 million?

he is arleady making what. 2 a year? jeff fischer recently was the highest paid NFL coach at 5.5 mil a year...

players cost can skyrocket, but a coaches? not really.. even if its 5-6 mil... one of the highest in the league, which i doubt marvin would demand...

thats 3-4 mil increase...

mike is willing to pay his own.. he hooked marvin the fuck up a few times early.. and stuck by him through the rough patches...

i really dislike that the media and then subsequently the fans make this big rivalry between those two, one that doesnt exist.. from what i understand, the only thing marvin really dislikes is having to do some GM stuff himself and mike does the rest.. i think marvin would like to have a GM in place to take care of some of his extra stuff... but he signed multiple extensions knowing that was the scenario, its not a deal breaker....every owner is involved in player deceisions except maybe the dolphins, but everyone has a foolish grudge against mike brown so they paly it into every scenario they can.

[-GoBengals-]

[quote name='sparky151' date='22 July 2010 - 01:38 PM' timestamp='1279827504' post='898349']
Back when Marvin was hired, Katie was his chief advocate. Mike seemed to like Coughlin better, at least according to the papers. If no extension is reached, Marvin won't lack for options. Mike would probably go with Zimmer if the defense has a good season, and give Zimmer the right to choose his assistants but not the personnel guys.
[/quote]

[sarcasm] yea i hear daugherty, reedy, and ludwig all get to sit in on front office meetings... [/sarcasm]

no one really knows, everyone just makes guesses based on what they have seen, majority of fans see nothing, they try to gain or implant as much truth into every clip, quote or video they see. the fans, via the media, have the offices of PBS portrayed as dark hallways, no one talks to eachother, mike brown sits in his corner office scowling at passers by, with a huge VETO stamp make with real kittens blood that he SLAMS into every decision marvin and co put across his desk. (you know its true, this is the public perception..SLIGHTLY exhaggerated)....

from everyone i have ever known or met within the team, its quite the opposite, everything is discussed, almost everything is decided by majority rule, mike doesnt just veto stuff and point fingers and yell.. marvin isnt walking around hating his job, ..just like most NFL teams, no one is the sole dictator, be it a great coach or mighty owner.. jerry jones and mr crazy in oakland are the only ones id guess are remotely like that... and even then, i only know what the media shows on espn as well..

its easy to appoint a villian when you dont care enough to try to find the truth. beat writers arent private investigators hell bent on getting you the deep down nfl truths.. they are lazy dudes with cool jobs who mail it in as often as you and I do from work... its not old times where hard core reporting lives strong.. no ones spending overtime trying to get the inside info and truth of everything.. everyone just wants to get home for lunch and go on vacation..

far too much stock is put into people who could care less... joe reedy is the best local guy, doc wants to be working elsewhere, the other guy crunnute is a bears fan, hell even hobson is a boston fan, .. reedy's biggest asset is that bhe blogs about what he sees, and from there we can get our own opinions.. and even he mentions writing peices to meet deadlines....

as far as i can tell mike brown is good peoples...

[Patmo]

[quote name='GoBengals' date='22 July 2010 - 05:19 PM' timestamp='1279833586' post='898372']
[sarcasm] yea i hear daugherty, reedy, and ludwig all get to sit in on front office meetings... [/sarcasm]

no one really knows, everyone just makes guesses based on what they have seen, majority of fans see nothing, they try to gain or implant as much truth into every clip, quote or video they see. the fans, via the media, have the offices of PBS portrayed as dark hallways, no one talks to eachother, mike brown sits in his corner office scowling at passers by, with a huge VETO stamp make with real kittens blood that he SLAMS into every decision marvin and co put across his desk. (you know its true, this is the public perception..SLIGHTLY exhaggerated)....

from everyone i have ever known or met within the team, its quite the opposite, everything is discussed, almost everything is decided by majority rule, mike doesnt just veto stuff and point fingers and yell.. marvin isnt walking around hating his job, ..just like most NFL teams, no one is the sole dictator, be it a great coach or mighty owner.. jerry jones and mr crazy in oakland are the only ones id guess are remotely like that... and even then, i only know what the media shows on espn as well..

its easy to appoint a villian when you dont care enough to try to find the truth. beat writers arent private investigators hell bent on getting you the deep down nfl truths.. they are lazy dudes with cool jobs who mail it in as often as you and I do from work... its not old times where hard core reporting lives strong.. no ones spending overtime trying to get the inside info and truth of everything.. everyone just wants to get home for lunch and go on vacation..

far too much stock is put into people who could care less... joe reedy is the best local guy, doc wants to be working elsewhere, the other guy crunnute is a bears fan, hell even hobson is a boston fan, .. reedy's biggest asset is that bhe blogs about what he sees, and from there we can get our own opinions.. and even he mentions writing peices to meet deadlines....

as far as i can tell mike brown is good peoples...
[/quote]


Go, I gree it's not about money. Marvin presently makes 3.5 to 4 meg.Mike's not going to nickel and dime Marvin . It's about Marvin wanting control of Personnel. Like a quasi GM. Not sure about Marvin's salary. Maybe Phat or somebody else can confirm.

[Bleeds Orange]

[quote name='jmckbengal' date='22 July 2010 - 12:40 PM' timestamp='1279820458' post='898332']
I wonder how much input Katie has? IMHO she had much to do about bringing Marvin to Cincy, but how much control is she willing to give up, is the question.
[/quote]

Yep, Katie wanted Marvin Lewis. Mike wanted Mike Mularkey. The Bills got him, instead. That decision has kinda turned out like the "Barry Larkin or Kurt Stillwell" decision the Reds made in 1986 or 1987.

[bengaled]

[quote name='Bleeds Orange' date='22 July 2010 - 06:19 PM' timestamp='1279837195' post='898381']
Yep, Katie wanted Marvin Lewis. Mike wanted Mike Mularkey. The Bills got him, instead. That decision has kinda turned out like the "Barry Larkin or Kurt Stillwell" decision the Reds made in 1986 or 1987.
[/quote]

that's just more evidence why the guy needs all the help he can get. it also shows how his franchise has become more successful by giving up some of that control.

[scharm]

[quote name='GoBengals' date='22 July 2010 - 05:19 PM' timestamp='1279833586' post='898372']
[sarcasm] yea i hear daugherty, reedy, and ludwig all get to sit in on front office meetings... [/sarcasm]

no one really knows, everyone just makes guesses based on what they have seen, majority of fans see nothing, they try to gain or implant as much truth into every clip, quote or video they see. the fans, via the media, have the offices of PBS portrayed as dark hallways, no one talks to eachother, mike brown sits in his corner office scowling at passers by, with a huge VETO stamp make with real kittens blood that he SLAMS into every decision marvin and co put across his desk. (you know its true, this is the public perception..SLIGHTLY exhaggerated)....

from everyone i have ever known or met within the team, its quite the opposite, everything is discussed, almost everything is decided by majority rule, mike doesnt just veto stuff and point fingers and yell.. marvin isnt walking around hating his job, ..just like most NFL teams, no one is the sole dictator, be it a great coach or mighty owner.. jerry jones and mr crazy in oakland are the only ones id guess are remotely like that... and even then, i only know what the media shows on espn as well..

its easy to appoint a villian when you dont care enough to try to find the truth. beat writers arent private investigators hell bent on getting you the deep down nfl truths.. they are lazy dudes with cool jobs who mail it in as often as you and I do from work... its not old times where hard core reporting lives strong.. no ones spending overtime trying to get the inside info and truth of everything.. everyone just wants to get home for lunch and go on vacation..

far too much stock is put into people who could care less... joe reedy is the best local guy, doc wants to be working elsewhere, the other guy crunnute is a bears fan, hell even hobson is a boston fan, .. reedy's biggest asset is that bhe blogs about what he sees, and from there we can get our own opinions.. and even he mentions writing peices to meet deadlines....

as far as i can tell mike brown is good peoples...
[/quote]


Yeah but what you described doesn't really sell. To survive in sports media as a beat writer or opinion guy you can't live by telling it like it is. When prospects are gloom you've got to sell hope. When prospects are good you got to sell doubt.

The flip side to the Marvin arguement. There has been recent articles claiming the Bengals are loaded talent wise.

Truth be told Marvin's rep as coach today was at the mercy of players he had nothing to do with acquiring. The offensive talent and system was already in place and he walked into Carson Palmer. Marvin did a great job spreading attitude, professionalism, accountability etc.

The risk for Marvin is by all accounts this team has good talent and it's young. It looks like a good situation for 3 years. Marvin leaving probably means he goes to a rebuilding situation.

Look at all the former Superbowl winning coaches that come back for a second time and never get back to where they were. The prospects of going through a rebuilding deal vs. coaching good young players you brought in will not be easy to leave.

[scharm]

Marvin's risk stated above.

Mike's risk:

Go back and look at the preseason attendance games in 2003. The season ticket base was at the lowest, you can guess mid 30K. Today although sellouts aren't as easy the season ticket base is a strong mid 50K. Sports fans by and larger are believers. But if Marvin leaves and the next coach has a bad luck sorry season that can happen to anyone that ticket base is going sub 40K very quickly.

Mike hasn't won enough for people to have faith he can win without Marvin. The next coach will get 1 chance with the fans and then it will be off the bandwagon if it doesn't work out.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Bleeds Orange' date='22 July 2010 - 06:19 PM' timestamp='1279837195' post='898381']
Yep, Katie wanted Marvin Lewis. Mike wanted Mike Mularkey. The Bills got him, instead. That decision has kinda turned out like the "Barry Larkin or Kurt Stillwell" decision the Reds made in 1986 or 1987.
[/quote]


huh? I could have sworn Mike wanted Tom Coughlin.

[scharm]

[quote name='Jamie_B' date='22 July 2010 - 07:26 PM' timestamp='1279841200' post='898393']
huh? I could have sworn Mike wanted Tom Coughlin.
[/quote]

Like GO stated above. Mike wanted Marvin or Marvin would not be here. People like to paint this deep divide and Mike the unforgiving ruler.

Mike was on target for 3 guys. 1 went on to win a Superbowl in New York. 1 got a HC job in Buffalo. The 1 they hired has brought the NFL back to Cincinnati.

In retrospect Mike has been proven that he conducted a successful coaching search. Coughlin was high on the list but he had a bad reputation as a control freak and that reputation almost destroyed him in New York before going on that incredible run to win a Superbowl. Mularkey was also in the mix but no one really knows how serious.

It's Hilarious how some like to play like Marvin wasn't Mike's choice. Really? Guy is going into his 8th season which is well above the NFL average life span of a HC.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='scharm' date='22 July 2010 - 07:47 PM' timestamp='1279842425' post='898394']
Like GO stated above. Mike wanted Marvin or Marvin would not be here. People like to paint this deep divide and Mike the unforgiving ruler.

Mike was on target for 3 guys. 1 went on to win a Superbowl in New York. 1 got a HC job in Buffalo. The 1 they hired has brought the NFL back to Cincinnati.

In retrospect Mike has been proven that he conducted a successful coaching search. Coughlin was high on the list but he had a bad reputation as a control freak and that reputation almost destroyed him in New York before going on that incredible run to win a Superbowl. Mularkey was also in the mix but no one really knows how serious.

It's Hilarious how some like to play like Marvin wasn't Mike's choice. Really? Guy is going into his 8th season which is well above the NFL average life span of a HC.
[/quote]


Its pretty well documented that he wasnt his first choice and that Katie and Troy's influence pushed him towards choosing Marvin, to say otherwise is revisionist history.

[The Scales]

Together as one big happy family they've built something nice. I'd like to see it continue.

[Cricket]

It was Mularkey...

[quote]Owner Mike Brown and other front-office personnel were in Mobile, Ala., scouting the Senior Bowl when they chose Lewis as the team's ninth head coach. The announcement came a day after Steelers offensive coordinator Mike Mularkey had his second interview for the job.[/quote]

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/bengals/2003-01-14-lewis_x.htm


...and from Daughterty:

[quote]By most accounts, Lewis was Katie and Troy Blackburn's guy.[/quote]

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/bengals/2003-01-15-lewis-comment_x.htm

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='scharm' date='22 July 2010 - 07:47 PM' timestamp='1279842425' post='898394']
Like GO stated above. Mike wanted Marvin or Marvin would not be here. People like to paint this deep divide and Mike the unforgiving ruler.

Mike was on target for 3 guys. 1 went on to win a Superbowl in New York. 1 got a HC job in Buffalo. The 1 they hired has brought the NFL back to Cincinnati.

In retrospect Mike has been proven that he conducted a successful coaching search. Coughlin was high on the list but he had a bad reputation as a control freak and that reputation almost destroyed him in New York before going on that incredible run to win a Superbowl. Mularkey was also in the mix but no one really knows how serious.

It's Hilarious how some like to play like Marvin wasn't Mike's choice. Really? Guy is going into his 8th season which is well above the NFL average life span of a HC.
[/quote]


as Jamie mentioned, its well documented that Katie and Troy were the ones that convinced Mike to hire Marvin.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Cricket' date='22 July 2010 - 08:10 PM' timestamp='1279843801' post='898402']
It was Mularkey...



http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/bengals/2003-01-14-lewis_x.htm


...and from Daughterty:



http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/bengals/2003-01-15-lewis-comment_x.htm
[/quote]

Why was everyone bitching about Marvin and Coughlin after Coughlin won the superbowl then? Your links document it, but I recall some serious sandy vaginas after that season.

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='Jamie_B' date='22 July 2010 - 08:23 PM' timestamp='1279844618' post='898408']
Why was everyone bitching about Marvin and Coughlin after Coughlin won the superbowl then? Your links document it, but I recall some serious sandy vaginas after that season.
[/quote]


Coughlin was brought in, but he wanted far more control than Mike was willing to give up. He wanted to add like 5 scouts, etc...

[jmckbengal]

Didn't we all watch Hard Knocks last year. Mikey wanting to move a DL to TE. Just the look on all the coaches faces tells the story. Mikey might be a hell of a guy, but doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground when it comes to football. I am sure Marvin would like to have more control without Mikey giving his blessing on every player.

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='jmckbengal' date='22 July 2010 - 09:29 PM' timestamp='1279848564' post='898423']
Didn't we all watch Hard Knocks last year. Mikey wanting to move a DL to TE. Just the look on all the coaches faces tells the story. Mikey might be a hell of a guy, but doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground when it comes to football. I am sure Marvin would like to have more control without Mikey giving his blessing on every player.
[/quote]


that's such an overblown situation. He threw it out their as an idea. He didn't force it on them, and once the coaches spoke their peace on it, it was never heard of again.


Mike's dad was one of the most innovative geniuses in the game. I'm sure people rolled their eyes at some of his ideas too.