Mike Brown is Stubborn as Hell

[mongo]

[quote name='oldschooler' timestamp='1306359426' post='994716']
So MB is "forcing" Carson to retire, huh?


I have no problem whatsoever with MB not trading Carson unless he absolutely rapes another team.
Trading him just for the sake of trading him? Fuck that. "Force" him to retire then.

And I don't think this is about pride at all. I have stated what this is about. You choose to ignore it.
[/quote]

Seems the only forcing going on is Carson forcing Mike Brown to make a decision he doesn't want to make. Nothing can help the 2011 Bengals except seeing if Carson will come back. If he won't, 2012 is a different story... And if anyone is being spiteful, Carson is the one actively disrupting the team, and hurting his teammates right now. Mike Brown has potential to do that in the future, but Carson's the one holding the 2011 bengals hostage at the moment.

[|OneHeartBeat|]

[quote name='fredtoast' timestamp='1306376889' post='994761']
So in other words you got nothing.

All this talk about "setting a bad precedent" by trading Carson is total bullshit. So the Bengals have nothing to gain by making him retire instead of trading him.
[/quote]

I dont think anyone is against trading Palmer, but how high is his trade value at this point? If I'm MB I dont accept just any offer for him. I would take nothing less than a 1st rounder. If I cant get that for him then I call his bluff. I think what people on this board are saying is that Carson is basically saying, "If you dont trade me for whatever is offered for me, then Im going to screw you"

I do agree with you though, that not trading Chad for what was offered was foolish. If a 1st is offered for Palmer it would be foolish not to do it.

[oldschooler]

[size="5"][b]Palmer has two choices: Bengals or retirement
[/b][/size]

Posted May 23, 2011 @ 5:59 p.m. ET

By PFW staff

According to Bengals owner Mike Brown, Carson Palmer has two choices regarding his future in the NFL: be Cincinnati's starting quarterback in 2011 or retire.

Speaking with Albert Breer of NFL.com at the NFL owners meeting in Indianapolis, Brown said that he would welcome Palmer back to the team as the starter and as a mentor for second-round pick Andy Dalton. What he would not do is trade Palmer to another team, something the player has asked for.

"We don't plan to trade Carson," Brown said Monday. "He's important to us. He's a very fine player, and we do want him to come back. If he chooses not to, he'd retire. And we would go with Andy Dalton, the younger player we drafted, who's a good prospect."

Palmer has been the team's starting QB since 2004, helping the team make the playoffs twice since then. His backup and brother Jordan Palmer has been leading the Bengals' offseason workouts in his absence.





[url="http://www.profootballweekly.com/2011/05/23/palmer-has-two-choices-bengals-or-retirement"]http://www.profootba...s-or-retirement[/url]

[Vol_Bengal]

[quote name='fredtoast' timestamp='1306254533' post='994439']
How in the hell do you figure he is holding anyone hostage.

If Carson just decides to retire then the Bengals get nothing. However if they trade Carson then they can get a player or draft picks to help improve the team.

So Carson is actually [b]doing the Bengals a favor[/b] by giving them the choice to trade him instead of just retiring.
[/quote]

[quote name='Bengal Migration' timestamp='1306271993' post='994508']
This is just silly. Who is Carson holding hostage? At worst, he's giving MB an opportunity to trade him to regain some value for his club.

He gave an entire off-season as notice. He didn't pull some stunt two days before training camp. Nor did he do anything through the press. He had a man to man talk with his boss, and explained his situation. WTF more could the man do?

Get a fucking grip folks.
[/quote]

If god and everybody knows that Carson wants out then his trade value is shit. Plain and simple. He's not doing anybody any favors by doing that.

Then it comes down to an extremely simple valuation... is what I can get in trade worth potentially having to face the guy I'm about to unload?

If not, there very possibly could be "some" value if knowing that you won't have to worry about having to face said player in the future.

As for "getting a grip" or whatever. Sure, there are some that get bent because a player "shuns" them or whatever but I can assure you - I've not lost ANY sleep over it. I purely look at it from a value standpoint. If the teams gains more by not facing current player than by the 3rd or 4th round pick they'd acquire it makes PERFECT sense to me to not trade the player. Its pretty simple. I don't understand why people get all bent because "oh my gosh" the Bengals are acting EXACTLY like the Patriots. EXACTLY. I thought that was the team our fans lately always held up at "the franchise" to copy.

If you can get a 1st rounder pick for Palmer, and in the process of the trade, control what team he goes to then I'd make the move. That'd be the perfect scenario - you limit the opportunity to have to face the player any time soon and you get an instant impact type player in return. I'd take that all day and whistle doing it.

[fredtoast]

[quote name='Bengals1181' timestamp='1306377695' post='994770'] There was not one worthwhile point in your post.....
[/quote]

....that didn't go completely over your head.


Or do you actually think it will help the Bengals to not "set a precedent" by giving in to Carson's trade request?

Which is it?

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='fredtoast' timestamp='1306416194' post='994833']
....that didn't go completely over your head.


Or do you actually think it will help the Bengals to not "set a precedent" by giving in to Carson's trade request?

Which is it?
[/quote]


I think that there's a very valid reason for not setting a precedent like that.

[Vol_Bengal]

[quote name='fredtoast' timestamp='1306355968' post='994698']
Tell em what the Bengals have to gain by making Carson retire.......Absolutely nothing.

Something > Nothing.
[/quote]

Not having to face the guy.

Not having to face him > than a 3rd or 4th rounder in my book.

[claptonrocks]

If the media and fans in the Nati know how stubborn MB can be its not lost on the other owners in the NFL.

I would suspect they are thinking..."Brown wont let him go unless he thinks he's got a good deal for him"
Not gonna be a third or fourth rounder..no sir....

MB will want at least something like a second rounder or maybe a 2 and lower pick..
Stubborn yes...stupid no....

[|westside bengal|]

When there can be trades I bet Mike sees 2 scenarios.

1) Trade CP for bodies. That is the only trade that can help immediately since the next draft is 2012.

2) Trade CP for picks. Mike probably feels there is a "minimum value" he can get anytime before next draft. The only way he trades early is for something well above that minimum.

[fredtoast]

[quote name='Bengals1181' timestamp='1306417046' post='994835']
I think that there's a very valid reason for not setting a precedent like that.
[/quote]

Is that reason the fact that it worked so well with Chad?

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='fredtoast' timestamp='1306436239' post='994904']
Is that reason the fact that it worked so well with Chad?
[/quote]


Carson is not Chad.


Anywho, you bore me.

[|SF2|]

Sorry but unless its a great deal you let him retire. If Carson wants that to be his legacy then fine, nobody will blame Mike Brown 5 years from now nor should they. The fact is Carson will be known as a quitter AND somewhat of a BUST if he were to retire. The number 1 overall pick Heisman winner who only played 7 years and never won a playoff game isn't a great legacy. Lifetime 46-51 record. Yeah, I know he was pretty good but the rest of the country will only see his tenure here as a failure and he a quitter.


If Carson were not demanding a trade right now NOBODY WOULD BE TALKING ABOUT HIM. Flacco is 25, is winning, has won 4 playoff games and is putting up better numbers. Jen is a two time superbowl champion and 3 time AFC Champion with similar numbers. Colt McCoy still has potential. Carson is older, banged up and hasn't shown his pro bowl form in years. He was practically a ghost before this whole thing erupted.

If the guy is actually competitive then he will play next year. If he decides to retire then he really wasn't worth a number 1 pick in the first place. Guy only has 3 winning seasons in the last 11 years anyways, the idea that this guy is a winner is simply an illusion.

[sois]

[quote name='SF2' timestamp='1306437682' post='994908']
Sorry but unless its a great deal you let him retire. If Carson wants that to be his legacy then fine, nobody will blame Mike Brown 5 years from now nor should they. The fact is Carson will be known as a quitter AND somewhat of a BUST if he were to retire. The number 1 overall pick Heisman winner who only played 7 years and never won a playoff game isn't a great legacy. Lifetime 46-51 record. Yeah, I know he was pretty good but the rest of the country will only see his tenure here as a failure and he a quitter.
[/quote]

Bullshit, is Barry Sanders known as a quitter?

Carson's legacy to people other than Bengals fans will be: the shitty Bengals organization drove him to the point where he'd rather retire than play. That is what the general NFL fan will think. That is what general NFL fans tell me. Only the Bengals die hards are talking about this wife BS.

[NYbengals]

[quote name='sois' timestamp='1306443502' post='994913']
Bullshit, is Barry Sanders known as a quitter?

Carson's legacy to people other than Bengals fans will be: the shitty Bengals organization drove him to the point where he'd rather retire than play. That is what the general NFL fan will think. That is what general NFL fans tell me. Only the Bengals die hards are talking about this wife BS.
[/quote]

+1

Thats how it seems most of the fans here in NY are seeing this situation. That the bengals must really be messed up for carson to be walking away from all that money.

[mongo]

[quote name='sois' timestamp='1306443502' post='994913']
Bullshit, is Barry Sanders known as a quitter?

Carson's legacy to people other than Bengals fans will be: the shitty Bengals organization drove him to the point where he'd rather retire than play. That is what the general NFL fan will think. That is what general NFL fans tell me. Only the Bengals die hards are talking about this wife BS.
[/quote]

Actually, I've always thought Barry was a bit of a quitter. It ticked me off when
he walked away, ignored the fans, then came back into the public eye to make
nice with the fans right before his HOF induction. That guy should have set
records losers like Emmit could never touch, and he pissed it away over a dispute
with the Lions... I don't care about guys reaching for the stars and falling short.
Sanders pissed me off because his had the history books by the balls and let it all
fly away.

As for the rest, I don't care about Carson's legacy from the national media.
Perhaps you always take the national media as your gospel. I don't pay enough
attention to anyone's posts to know that sort of thing. That said, some people
here have a lousy habit of waffling between media sources to suit their current
mood. "Oh my God, that national dickwad doesn't know a thing!" "The Bengals
are going to suck, just look at what PFT is saying!" Gimme the information from
the local people who eat, sleep and breath Bengals. No one covering 32 teams
could possibly have the same information as them.

[sois]

[quote name='mongo' timestamp='1306447721' post='994924']
Actually, I've always thought Barry was a bit of a quitter. It ticked me off when
he walked away, ignored the fans, then came back into the public eye to make
nice with the fans right before his HOF induction. That guy should have set
records losers like Emmit could never touch, and he pissed it away over a dispute
with the Lions... I don't care about guys reaching for the stars and falling short.
Sanders pissed me off because his had the history books by the balls and let it all
fly away.
[/quote]

Wait so Barry Sanders is a quitter and the only reason he made the HOF is because he "made nice with the fans"? Also, Emmitt Smith is a loser? What the fuck? Is Walter Payton a piece of shit in your eyes too because he had health problems? If Sanders and Smith are "losers and quitters" in your eyes, then you really don't have a good grasp on reality. Those dudes were two of the best that every played. If you can't appreciate what they gave us, what the hell is going to satisfy you?

[quote]
As for the rest, I don't care about Carson's legacy from the national media.
Perhaps you always take the national media as your gospel. I don't pay enough
attention to anyone's posts to know that sort of thing. That said, some people
here have a lousy habit of waffling between media sources to suit their current
mood. "Oh my God, that national dickwad doesn't know a thing!" "The Bengals
are going to suck, just look at what PFT is saying!" Gimme the information from
the local people who eat, sleep and breath Bengals. No one covering 32 teams
could possibly have the same information as them.
[/quote]

Dude, the Bengals media sources seem to be just as shitty as the others, I don't know why you would anoint them as the gospel. Hell, half the people here despise every single Bengals beat writer and would like to physically injure them.

If you step back and look at the big picture and remove the Bengals tinted glasses, you will accept the fact that right now, Carson Palmer's reputation league wide is much higher than Mike Brown's. Most people feel sorry for Palmer having to toil away in Cincy. I'm sorry but that is the general consensus. I love the Bengals and I like Mike Brown, but I can easily understand why the average fan would see things this way.

[Inigo Montoya]

[quote name='sois' timestamp='1306443502' post='994913']
Bullshit, is Barry Sanders known as a quitter?

Carson's legacy to people other than Bengals fans will be: the shitty Bengals organization drove him to the point where he'd rather retire than play. That is what the general NFL fan will think. That is what general NFL fans tell me. Only the Bengals die hards are talking about this wife BS.
[/quote]


Barry Sanders is remembered as a Hall of Famer and one of the greatest running backs in NFL history. His premature retirement is still talked about, but the brilliance of his career from start to finish definitely overshadows how it ended. Not a chance that happens with Carson Palmer if he retires.

[claptonrocks]

[quote name='Inigo Montoya' timestamp='1306452099' post='994927']
Barry Sanders is remembered as a Hall of Famer and one of the greatest running backs in NFL history. His premature retirement is still talked about, but the brilliance of his career from start to finish definitely overshadows how it ended. Not a chance that happens with Carson Palmer if he retires.
[/quote]

agree.....

Carson may be remembered as a good QB that hurt his knee against the Steelers and never was the same.

Most NFL fans will remember he quit rather than play for a poorly run franchise...

Actually in a few years he wont be remembered for much of anything....

[|OneHeartBeat|]

[quote name='sois' timestamp='1306448886' post='994926']
Wait so Barry Sanders is a quitter and the only reason he made the HOF is because he "made nice with the fans"? Also, Emmitt Smith is a loser? What the fuck? Is Walter Payton a piece of shit in your eyes too because he had health problems? If Sanders and Smith are "losers and quitters" in your eyes, then you really don't have a good grasp on reality. Those dudes were two of the best that every played. If you can't appreciate what they gave us, what the hell is going to satisfy you?



Dude, the Bengals media sources seem to be just as shitty as the others, I don't know why you would anoint them as the gospel. Hell, half the people here despise every single Bengals beat writer and would like to physically injure them.

If you step back and look at the big picture and remove the Bengals tinted glasses, you will accept the fact that right now, Carson Palmer's reputation league wide is much higher than Mike Brown's. Most people feel sorry for Palmer having to toil away in Cincy. I'm sorry but that is the general consensus. I love the Bengals and I like Mike Brown, but I can easily understand why the average fan would see things this way.
[/quote]
Its complete horseshit to even mention palmers name in comparison with some of the greatest players to ever play at their respective positions. The bengals have done everything to give palmer the weapons to succeed. He hasn't done it. You can blame MB for a lot but not in this case.

[bengalsfan2011]

[quote name='OneHeartBeat' timestamp='1306454247' post='994933']
The bengals have done everything to give palmer the weapons to succeed. He hasn't done it. You can blame MB for a lot but not in this case.
[/quote]


They let his favorite target in TJ leave as a free agent. They compensated by signing Coles to a huge contract. Coles was out of the NFL a yr later. Thye signed Antonio Bryant and had to cut him for injury related reasons before he ever played a game. They waited until the start of training camp to sign TO (the eventual starter) so they could get him on the cheap after no one else wanted him. They waited until last season to use a 1st rd pick (Gresham) on a target..

If you want to build around a franchise QB you're either doing it by drafting WRs or OL in the 1st round. that never happened since Palmer has been the QB.

[Tigris]

1st Round

Andre Smith, OT, Alabama

Eric Steinbach, G, Iowa

Jermaine Gresham, TE, Oklahoma

2nd Round

Andrew Whitworth, OG/OT, LSU

Jerome Simpson, WR Coastal Carolina

[quote name='bengalsfan2011' timestamp='1306454825' post='994936']
They let his favorite target in TJ leave as a free agent. They compensated by signing Coles to a huge contract. Coles was out of the NFL a yr later. Thye signed Antonio Bryant and had to cut him for injury related reasons before he ever played a game. They waited until the start of training camp to sign TO (the eventual starter) so they could get him on the cheap after no one else wanted him. They waited until last season to use a 1st rd pick (Gresham) on a target..

If you want to build around a franchise QB you're either doing it by drafting WRs or OL in the 1st round. that never happened since Palmer has been the QB.
[/quote]

[bengalsfan2011]

[quote name='Tigris' timestamp='1306458250' post='994943']
1st Round

Andre Smith, OT, Alabama

Eric Steinbach, G, Iowa

Jermaine Gresham, TE, Oklahoma

2nd Round

Andrew Whitworth, OG/OT, LSU

Jerome Simpson, WR Coastal Carolina
[/quote]

Andre Smith hasn't been on the field and he's the only 1st rd lineman. Steinbach was a 2nd rder who walked after his rookie deal expired. Whitworth is a 2nd rder, and not coincedentally has been the only standout on the OL.

Simpson a 2nd rder who couldn't get on the field until the end of his third season...

that's not the blueprint for building around the QB. I'm not absolving Palmer from blame, but they haven't built around him

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='bengalsfan2011' timestamp='1306458945' post='994944']
Andre Smith hasn't been on the field and he's the only 1st rd lineman. Steinbach was a 2nd rder who walked after his rookie deal expired. Whitworth is a 2nd rder, and not coincedentally has been the only standout on the OL.

Simpson a 2nd rder who couldn't get on the field until the end of his third season...

that's not the blueprint for building around the QB. I'm not absolving Palmer from blame, but they haven't built around him
[/quote]


oh please.


I'll state that they haven't done enough IMO to field a consistent winner around Carson over the last 8 years, but you're making some pretty damn lame excuses for some very solid examples by Tigris.

[bengalsfan2011]

[quote name='Bengals1181' timestamp='1306459227' post='994945']
oh please.


I'll state that they haven't done enough IMO to field a consistent winner around Carson over the last 8 years, but you're making some pretty damn lame excuses for some very [b]solid examples by Tigris[/b].
[/quote]

Whitworth is a solid example..

injury busts and players who haven't been on the field aren't, at least in my opinion..

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='bengalsfan2011' timestamp='1306459587' post='994946']
Whitworth is a solid example..

injury busts and players who haven't been on the field aren't, at least in my opinion..
[/quote]


Gresham, Simpson and Steinbach are perfectly solid examples. As for andre, you can argue both ways. You can't blame the team for the foot injuries, but you can argue whether he should have been drafted to begin with (though that further hurts your argument, not mine).

And regardless of what you think of them, Kelley Washington, Chris Perry, Chris Henry, Andre Caldwell, Jordan Shipley, and Chase Coffman are all other good examples of the Bengals putting talent around Carson on the offensive side of the ball.

The only remote argument you have is commenting on only 3 offensive lineman taken in the first 3 rounds during Carson's time. Though its worth noting there were also 4 4th rounders.


The fact is, your thinking that you can only build around a QB by giving him first rounders is simply flawed. Very flawed.