Mike Brown is Stubborn as Hell

[Elijah15]

[b][size="5"]Mike Brown: Bengals won’t trade Carson Palmer, he’ll stay or retire
[/size][/b]
[u][size="4"]Posted by Michael David Smith on May 23, 2011, 3:52 PM EDT[/size][/u]
The Cincinnati Bengals aren’t changing their tune on Carson Palmer.

Bengals owner Mike Brown told Albert Breer of NFL Network that he hopes to have Palmer back and won’t trade him, but that if Palmer follows through on a threat to retire rather than return to Cincinnati, the Bengals are prepared to turn to rookie Andy Dalton, the 35th pick in the draft.

“We don’t plan to trade Carson,” Brown said. “He’s important to us. He’s a very fine player, and we do want him to come back. If he chooses not to, he’d retire. And we would go with Andy Dalton, the younger player we drafted, who’s a good prospect. Ideally, we’d have both of them. That’d be the best way to go forward. If we don’t have Carson, we’ll go with Andy.”

Brown sang the praises of Dalton, describing him as a rookie who could be ready to start from Day One.

“He’s very football intelligent, he’s been with our coaches, and Jay Gruden, our coordinator,” Brown said. “Jay had a very good feeling about his football abilities, his abilities to understand the defenses and how to go about things. He’d been productive at the college level, and we think he has a good shot at it here.”

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/05/23/mike-brown-bengals-wont-trade-carson-palmer-hell-stay-or-retire/
If Brown really feels that way about Dalton, however, it’s hard to see why he’s so steadfast in his refusal to trade Palmer. The Bengals appear to be ready to move on with Dalton as their starting quarterback, so why not try to bolster the roster by getting something for Palmer in a trade?

The question is moot until the lockout ends, but at the moment, Brown clearly doesn’t want Palmer to think he’ll have any other options besides Cincinnati and retirement.

[oldschooler]

I don't see anything wrong with what he said.
At least he is saying something.



But really, saying they will trade him and he isn't important to the team isn't going to help his trade value.

Also, I am quite content with letting him retire. If he chooses to go that route.

[BigDawgBengal]

It does not really matter what Mike Brown says now, nothing can happen with the lockout. Once the lockout is over it could be a different story.

[mongo]

The part of me that tries to keep his word, works to be a better person, and
believes in being the man my parents would be proud of applauds Mike Brown's
decision. The part of me that roots for the Bengals on Sundays isn't doing a
lot of cheering right now.

[scharm]

No point in saying he's on the market when there's no market due to lock out. Nothing to be gained.

[Bengals1181]

not really anything else to be said at this point. Couldn't trade him if they wanted to, and saying he's on the market and they're ready to move on without him only lowers his trade value.

It's Business 101.

[Tigris]

I hope we don't trade him. Any man who lets his wife run the house is a pussy. I bet his wife makes him sleep with his dick tucked. Makes me sick.

By the way, does anyone remember Jeff Shaw, closer for the Reds? I just saw him in Subway. Not as cool as Bobbie Williams, but Subway must be happenin' these days.

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='Tigris' timestamp='1306192751' post='994294']
I hope we don't trade him. Any man who lets his wife run the house is a pussy. I bet his wife makes him sleep with his dick tucked. Makes me sick.
[/quote]



ahhh, sweet, dumb ignorant internet tough guy talk.

[Tigris]

[quote name='Bengals1181' timestamp='1306195026' post='994299']
ahhh, sweet, dumb ignorant internet tough guy talk.
[/quote]
I'm far from dumb and/or ignorant.

And please. Just because we have different outlooks on who to take orders from doesn't mean that's tough guy talk. It doesn't mean I'm any tougher than you, Carson, or anyone for that matter. What it means is whoever takes orders from his wife needs to grow a pair.

You must be bored tonight.

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='Tigris' timestamp='1306195500' post='994301']
I'm far from dumb and/or ignorant.

And please. Just because we have different outlooks on who to take orders from doesn't mean that's tough guy talk. It doesn't mean I'm any tougher than you, Carson, or anyone for that matter. What it means is whoever takes orders from his wife needs to grow a pair.

You must be bored tonight.
[/quote]


sure

[|Bunghole|]

My wife left me because I wouldn't follow her orders. I threatened to trade her, even though I knew she had no trade value, so she retired instead.

[Tigris]

[quote name='Bunghole' timestamp='1306197011' post='994309']
My wife left me because I wouldn't follow her orders. I threatened to trade her, even though I knew she had no trade value, so she retired instead.
[/quote]
You did the right thing. Don't let anyone tell you different.

[fredtoast]

[quote name='mongo' timestamp='1306182918' post='994250']
The part of me that tries to keep his word, works to be a better person,[b] and
believes in being the man my parents would be proud of [/b]applauds Mike Brown's
decision. [/quote]


Your parents taught you that if you had millions of dollars in the bank and were miserable at your job working for the most incompetent, seflish employer in the business that you should stay at that job?

What a couple of schmucks.

I teach my kids that life is too short to be miserable. If they have enough money to live comfortably I would never want them to stay at a job that makes them unhappy. Family is more inmportant than any job.

Maybe if they were working on some major task where their sacrifice would would be for the betterment of mankind then I would want them to weigh the decision carefully. But no way in hell I would tell them to remain miserable to play some fucking ball game.

By refusing to trade Palmer Mike Brown is telling the remaing hard-wroking Bengals "Fuck you all. My pride is more important than making the team better." And your parents taught you to APPLAUD that type of behavior?

I feel sorry for you.

[|BlackJesus|]

[center][quote name='Tigris' timestamp='1306192751' post='994294']
Any man who lets his wife run the house is a pussy. I bet his wife makes him sleep with his dick tucked.[/quote]
[/center]

[TheBeaverHunter]

I say let him retire if you can't get a 1st for him.

[|OneHeartBeat|]

[quote name='fredtoast' timestamp='1306215465' post='994363']
Your parents taught you that if you had millions of dollars in the bank and were miserable at your job working for the most incompetent, seflish employer in the business that you should stay at that job?

What a couple of schmucks.

I teach my kids that life is too short to be miserable. If they have enough money to live comfortably I would never want them to stay at a job that makes them unhappy. Family is more inmportant than any job.

Maybe if they were working on some major task where their sacrifice would would be for the betterment of mankind then I would want them to weigh the decision carefully. But no way in hell I would tell them to remain miserable to play some fucking ball game.

By refusing to trade Palmer Mike Brown is telling the remaing hard-wroking Bengals "Fuck you all. My pride is more important than making the team better." And your parents taught you to APPLAUD that type of behavior?

I feel sorry for you.
[/quote]
Playing football is not a JOB in the sense that you're referring to. I just don't get your posts at all on this topic.

[fredtoast]

[quote name='OneHeartBeat' timestamp='1306240077' post='994384']
Playing football is not a JOB in the sense that you're referring to. I just don't get your posts at all on this topic.
[/quote]


Middle school version for OneHeartBeat.

If you hate your job and can afford to retire then retire instead of making yourself miserable.

[mongo]

[quote name='OneHeartBeat' timestamp='1306240077' post='994384']
Playing football is not a JOB in the sense that you're referring to. I just don't get your posts at all on this topic.
[/quote]

Add in that Carson doesn't actually hate his job, his pay, his coworkers, his
'managers', his employer, or his city, and job analogies don't make much sense.

[Vol_Bengal]

[quote name='fredtoast' timestamp='1306242202' post='994395']
Middle school version for OneHeartBeat.

If you hate your job and can afford to retire then retire instead of making yourself miserable.
[/quote]

Fred... lately your attitude has been pretty shitty. Between this topic and the lockout one.

I understand your view of "if the player has enough money and can retire, why deal with being miserable" and it is commendable. Very accurate too. But he's not just retiring - he's trying to force the hand by threatening retirement.

But, most people, too, are raised on the standard that you're only as good as your word and you sign a contract for a specific period of time, you honor that contract. I can't see where Mike Brown is automatically the bad guy here because he's got an agreement with a player and expects the player to honor that contract. Instead he wants to be traded out of the contract. I don't see Palmer offering to give back any of his guaranteed money that he's earned (that is factored over the life of said contract).

Once the CBA is back in play and the trade market is open
If you can't get really, really good value for Carson then I'd let Carson retire. If you get good value that makes sense then you make the move attempting to improve your team.

The same people who say trade him or let him go for whatever you can get are the same ones in three years when Carson's beating the Bengals head to head or leading another team to a championship game and possible Super Bowl will be saying "why did we ever let that guy go for nothing?". If you can't get good value to better your team you're better off having him retirement with no chance of having to face him in future years.

And, since we drafted him Carson has been my guy. Have his jersey and everything. But - the quarterback is the leader of the team and you cave to player demands, as an organization, using your "what are you showing your players?" analogy other players will think they can demand such things too. Sets a bad precedent.

[Khatmandude]

[quote name='mongo' timestamp='1306245583' post='994404']
Add in that Carson doesn't actually hate his job, his pay, his coworkers, his
'managers', his employer, or his city, and job analogies don't make much sense.
[/quote]

fredtoast is a lawyer/douchebag........he can make anything the truth to himself he wants. Reality be damned.

[|Bunghole|]

[quote name='Vol_Bengal' timestamp='1306247509' post='994412']
Fred... lately your attitude has been pretty shitty. Between this topic and the lockout one.

I understand your view of "if the player has enough money and can retire, why deal with being miserable" and it is commendable. Very accurate too. But he's not just retiring - he's trying to force the hand by threatening retirement.

But, most people, too, are raised on the standard that you're only as good as your word and you sign a contract for a specific period of time, you honor that contract. I can't see where Mike Brown is automatically the bad guy here because he's got an agreement with a player and expects the player to honor that contract. Instead he wants to be traded out of the contract. I don't see Palmer offering to give back any of his guaranteed money that he's earned (that is factored over the life of said contract).

Once the CBA is back in play and the trade market is open
If you can't get really, really good value for Carson then I'd let Carson retire. If you get good value that makes sense then you make the move attempting to improve your team.

The same people who say trade him or let him go for whatever you can get are the same ones in three years when Carson's beating the Bengals head to head or leading another team to a championship game and possible Super Bowl will be saying "why did we ever let that guy go for nothing?". If you can't get good value to better your team you're better off having him retirement with no chance of having to face him in future years.

And, since we drafted him Carson has been my guy. Have his jersey and everything. But - the quarterback is the leader of the team and you cave to player demands, as an organization, using your "what are you showing your players?" analogy other players will think they can demand such things too. Sets a bad precedent.
[/quote]
This is a pretty good post, but I would point out a couple things (and I ain't defending Carson or Mike Brown):

You mention about how people are raised to honor "their word" (a contract that you sign). I'd agree with that in most scenarios. The NFL is not most scenarios and contracts are not guaranteed, at least not most of the money. For an owner to cry foul when a player pulls something like what Carson is pulling is kinda ironic given that that very same owner has released many, many other players whom thought they had a contract and its terms weren't honored by ownership because they got injured, started to suck, etc.

Also, I keep reading this "setting a precedent" thing WRT owners caving and suddenly all these players are going to use that as an example to try to force their way off of teams. This is a meme. First of all, players before Carson Palmer have already tried doing these things when they are disgruntled, and secondly, only a small fraction of the players in the NFL not only make the kind of coin Carson does but also put that money away in the bank instead of spending it like crazy, ergo, very few players would ever be in the financial position that Carson is in to risk pulling such a move.

[-GoBengals-]

like the patriots let mankins have his trade demands?

bob kraft is stubborn as hel!!!!1111

[scharm]

[quote]Also, I keep reading this "setting a precedent" thing WRT owners caving and suddenly all these players are going to use that as an example to try to force their way off of teams. This is a meme. First of all, players before Carson Palmer have already tried doing these things when they are disgruntled, and secondly, only a small fraction of the players in the NFL not only make the kind of coin Carson does but also put that money away in the bank instead of spending it like crazy, ergo, very few players would ever be in the financial position that Carson is in to risk pulling such a move.


[/quote]

You may be correct. However Mike was the first owner to attempt to put "Pickens Clause" into contracts. He got mocked but his point eventually proved out and then other teams did follow.

The point with the "Pickens Clause" was not to different from the Palmer stance. The non gauranteed portion of a contract is not a factor as both parties negotiate with that in mind and it being known and also something the players as collective bargaining unit accept.

The point being signing bonuses are not really a bonus for signing a contract. It was a loop hole exploited by agents in the new world salary cap era. The bonus is really gauranteed up front payment. Carson by threatening retiring is screwing the Bengals. With a trade Carson could also be rewarded with more up front money in any new contract from a new team.


I'm not saying Carson had an evil plan like Pickens. But taken as a whole his actions are no different than any other action that makes his services useless to a team and thus the bonus money is wasted and then the player could be rewarded also with a new team.

Mike is probably making a point to say "hey you can't fight for gauranteed money and still give players free wishes without better protection for the team paying out gauranteed money." That's just a guess. Mike if he wanted to is facing a public nightmare if he tried to get bonus money back from Carson in the event of retirment or trade.

[Vol_Bengal]

[quote name='Bunghole' timestamp='1306250241' post='994422']
This is a pretty good post, but I would point out a couple things (and I ain't defending Carson or Mike Brown):

You mention about how people are raised to honor "their word" (a contract that you sign). I'd agree with that in most scenarios. The NFL is not most scenarios and contracts are not guaranteed, at least not most of the money. For an owner to cry foul when a player pulls something like what Carson is pulling is kinda ironic given that that very same owner has released many, many other players whom thought they had a contract and its terms weren't honored by ownership because they got injured, started to suck, etc.

Also, I keep reading this "setting a precedent" thing WRT owners caving and suddenly all these players are going to use that as an example to try to force their way off of teams. This is a meme. First of all, players before Carson Palmer have already tried doing these things when they are disgruntled, and secondly, only a small fraction of the players in the NFL not only make the kind of coin Carson does but also put that money away in the bank instead of spending it like crazy, ergo, very few players would ever be in the financial position that Carson is in to risk pulling such a move.
[/quote]

Bung - I'm not saying that anyone should give Palmer any grief if he comes out one day and says "you know, I'm just tired of the frustration, etc., etc., etc." and then retires. No issue at all. But to demand to be traded and then say either you do or I retire is an entirely different thing.

As for players having their contracts cut short - did they lose ANY of their guaranteed money in those contracts? Nope. They get to keep every dime of it.

And, the argument of setting a precedent. If no precedent is being set one way or the other, then how is player perception being changed with regard to Fred's "show these other players how shitty you are" rant on Mike Brown. You're either affecting the players or not. I tend to agree that no real precedent is going to be set but I also think that other players are saying "damn, Mike's selfish for expecting Carson to be here and won't just let him go do whatever he wants. Blah, blah, blah."

Just my .02.

[fredtoast]

[quote name='Vol_Bengal' timestamp='1306247509' post='994412']
But, most people, too, are raised on the standard that you're only as good as your word and you sign a contract for a specific period of time, you honor that contract. [b]I can't see where Mike Brown is automatically the bad guy here because he's got an agreement with a player and expects the player to honor that contract.[/b]
[/quote]

Then why don't you ask Willie Anderson, Deltha Oneal, Rudi Johnson, and any of the other dozens of players that Mike Brown has cut while they still had years left on their contracts?

People quit jobs all the ime while they are under contract. In fact I would guess that a MAJORITY of NFL players still have years left on their contract when they retire.