Bengals1181 Posted May 30, 2011 Report Share Posted May 30, 2011 well I suppose it was only a matter of time before the globetrotter attitude returned. I guess a dog can't change his stripes, and I'm embarrassed that I tried to convince others that it did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelWeston Posted May 30, 2011 Report Share Posted May 30, 2011 [quote name='sparky151' timestamp='1306779016' post='995349'] Sigh. What is the NCAA and where does its rule making authority come from? I say the NCAA is an association of colleges and universities and it has the rule making authority they grant it. Do you disagree? If not, it's well established in the law that you can't delegate to a 3rd party a power you don't yourself have. I can't give somebody else power of attorney to sell your house because I don't own it. So the question is whether, NCAA rules aside, OSU can require students generally, and athletes in particular, to sell or not sell their personal property. If OSU were a private institution and the athlete agreed, they probably could. OSU however is a public entity. So the question is whether they can make admission or participation in sports conditional on selling or not selling personal property. The US Supreme court said states couldn't make receiving benefits conditional on exercising or not exercising personal rights in the manner pleasing to whoever was handing out the benefits. Thus public housing agencies can't ban tenants from owning firearms, schools and libraries can't make meeting rooms available only to groups they like, etc. So did the players "agree" to not sell their memorabilia? Maybe. Is that agreement enforceable by the NCAA or OSU? Nope. It's what's called an adhesion clause and would be tossed by any court who examined the matter. Why? Because keeping money out of the hands of college students isn't a lawful purpose by educational institutions. [/quote] Your knowledge of the law trumps mine. Precedence and industry standard seem to trump your knowledge of the law. From what I can see OSU is not the same as a public entity as housing is a public entity. Its a different animal. And your argument does not follow suit. Being in public housing means that the state can't limit what you do with your property, it does limit what you can do with that housing which is not your property. You don't own the housing much like you don't own your merchandise. The arguments are quite different. A similar argument would be if we were saying OSU could ban their players from selling a car they own. They can't. If the car is awarded to them as part of their OSU experience than it seems that they can. Their right to receive a car as a result of their amateur playing status is contingent upon them not selling the car until they are no longer an amateur. A library and OSU are quite different. Anyone can use the library, not anyone can go to OSU.[quote name='Bengals1181' timestamp='1306787243' post='995362'] well I suppose it was only a matter of time before the globetrotter attitude returned. I guess a dog can't change his stripes, and I'm embarrassed that I tried to convince others that it did. [/quote] Dude relax, when I disagree with you I have an attitude, come on. You set me up for that one an it was HIlarious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelWeston Posted May 30, 2011 Report Share Posted May 30, 2011 [quote name='Bengals1181' timestamp='1306770523' post='995330'] this isn't even worth a response. [/quote] By the way you did the exact same thing 10 posts earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelWeston Posted May 30, 2011 Report Share Posted May 30, 2011 Jon Grudens name floated as a possible successor to Tressell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Elflocko| Posted May 30, 2011 Report Share Posted May 30, 2011 [quote name='MichaelWeston' timestamp='1306789424' post='995366'] Jon Grudens name floated as a possible successor to Tressell [/quote] Yeah, but he won't be able to win a National Championship unless Tony Dungey coaches there for a few years first... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bengals1181 Posted May 30, 2011 Report Share Posted May 30, 2011 [quote name='MichaelWeston' timestamp='1306789278' post='995365'] By the way you did the exact same thing 10 posts earlier. [/quote] no, I at least read his. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelWeston Posted May 30, 2011 Report Share Posted May 30, 2011 [quote name='Bengals1181' timestamp='1306789763' post='995369'] no, I at least read his. [/quote] I think you are too emotionally tied to this story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bengals1181 Posted May 30, 2011 Report Share Posted May 30, 2011 [quote name='MichaelWeston' timestamp='1306790332' post='995370'] I think you are too emotionally tied to this story. [/quote] honestly, I don't even care that much about it. I'm an OSU alum and still root for them, but they're a tiny piece of my life anymore. As I said when it first broke, they knew the rules, broke them, and deserve to be punished. You on the other hand are openly against anything Ohio State, despite the fact you work there, and are blinded from having any rational discussion about the school. But back to the last point, there's a difference between reading someone's post and viewing it as not worth a response, and not even bothering to read someone's post and having the audacity to claim that it's not worth your response. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelWeston Posted May 30, 2011 Report Share Posted May 30, 2011 [quote name='Bengals1181' timestamp='1306790431' post='995371' But back to the last point, there's a difference between reading someone's post and viewing it as not worth a response, and not even bothering to read someone's post and having the audacity to claim that it's not worth your response. [/quote] I think both ways your still being a jerk. And I have not worked there for years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bengals1181 Posted May 30, 2011 Report Share Posted May 30, 2011 [quote name='MichaelWeston' timestamp='1306791433' post='995372'] And I have not worked there for years. [/quote] you worked there as of January, as you told me. Not sure why you're intent to lie about it. Do you think it hurts your cred as an OSU hater or something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|kennethmw| Posted May 31, 2011 Report Share Posted May 31, 2011 [quote name='MichaelWeston' timestamp='1306781464' post='995352'] Starting a post with "Sigh" tells me all I need to know about the rest of it. [/quote] No, Sparky starting a post with "sigh" probably means you're a Dumbass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelWeston Posted May 31, 2011 Report Share Posted May 31, 2011 [quote name='kennethmw' timestamp='1306804673' post='995381'] No, Sparky starting a post with "sigh" probably means you're a Dumbass. [/quote] Im not sweating it. Its a childish way to start the post. That does not make him a dumb guy. I have done worse Here is the article on the buckeyes. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/magazine/05/30/jim.tressel/index.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legoland Posted May 31, 2011 Report Share Posted May 31, 2011 [quote name='Bengals1181' timestamp='1306766402' post='995305'] there's a difference between knowing about it and being able to stop it. And pretty much no program in the country is going to out themselves. Coaches simply can't police 80+ players at all times and make sure they're following the rules. [/quote] Not true programs out themselves everyday. Osu has admitted to over 300 minor infractions since JT has been there btw. And nobody including the NCAA is saying the coaches need to police players constantly. JT is in trouble because he lied. Period. He knew about and didn't report it. Probably because he smelled national title. Then when asked by the NCAA he said he had no knowledge of the infractions. Everything else is now piling on, like what happens when any program gets in trouble. The dirty laundry comes out. Not that JT knew of it all, he part has been played in this tale. Now were going to see the real bad shit come out with this SI article. Tressle jumped( was asked) to jump on a grenade to soften the sanctions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelWeston Posted May 31, 2011 Report Share Posted May 31, 2011 [quote name='MichaelWeston' timestamp='1306805045' post='995382'] Im not sweating it. Its a childish way to start the post. That does not make him a dumb guy. I have done worse Here is the article on the buckeyes. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/magazine/05/30/jim.tressel/index.html [/quote] The article was not all that bad. Definitely not as bad as I was expecting. The author has won a pulitzer so he has some cred. Definitely some questions. I am guessing there is more to come and a house of cards will come down as soon as some players start talking more. I still think this is just the begining Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BurnsBengal Posted May 31, 2011 Report Share Posted May 31, 2011 [quote name='MichaelWeston' timestamp='1306805045' post='995382'] Here is the article on the buckeyes. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/magazine/05/30/jim.tressel/index.html [/quote] Thanks. Really nothing that new...certainly nothing like that fool, bengals8580, tried to allege upthread. I read that and kept waiting for some big bomb to drop...despite the writer wanting really hard to make it so, it didn't. [quote name='bengals8580' timestamp='1306769953' post='995323'] Wait til next week when an SI article comes out with new allegations. Hookers for recruits, pay for play, car deals, ted ginn sr being paid to funnel recruits into OSU, players taking 2 week courses and getting full credit. Its easy to recruit when you cheat out your ass. [/quote] Update? Way to make crap up, guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|OneHeartBeat| Posted May 31, 2011 Report Share Posted May 31, 2011 Too many people being douchebags in this thread. And this is certainly not even remotely close to the end of Ohio State. Its a top 10, top 5 program easily. It will be a well sought after job in 2012. I wish JT the best and thank him for the memories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZBengal Posted May 31, 2011 Report Share Posted May 31, 2011 It was just a matter of time - it was a foregone conclusion that the slime bag was going to be fired soon anyway if he didn't resign. Maybe one of the sleeziest coaches in NCAA in recent years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sparky151 Posted May 31, 2011 Report Share Posted May 31, 2011 [quote name='MichaelWeston' timestamp='1306787518' post='995364'] Your knowledge of the law trumps mine. Precedence and industry standard seem to trump your knowledge of the law. From what I can see OSU is not the same as a public entity as housing is a public entity. Its a different animal. And your argument does not follow suit. Being in public housing means that the state can't limit what you do with your property, it does limit what you can do with that housing which is not your property. You don't own the housing much like you don't own your merchandise. The arguments are quite different. A similar argument would be if we were saying OSU could ban their players from selling a car they own. They can't. If the car is awarded to them as part of their OSU experience than it seems that they can. Their right to receive a car as a result of their amateur playing status is contingent upon them not selling the car until they are no longer an amateur. A library and OSU are quite different. Anyone can use the library, not anyone can go to OSU. [/quote] I'm not saying public housing tenants own their units but rather than the housing agency can't make receipt of public housing conditional on behaving in a manner most pleasing to them. The NCAA has a "rule" against players selling their memorabilia. Why? It's designed to keep players poor and compliant. Even a more sympathetic defense would go along the lines that it's designed to keep colleges from compensating athletes via "awards". Problem is that's illegal. MIT went to the mat with the US Department of Justice over that and lost badly. My view is that the NCAA is a cartel and can make rules that are binding on its members but not on 3rd parties. Athletes aren't involved in the rule making process at all. If an athlete felt a rule was unfair and should be changed, there is literally no avenue to get it done. It all has to come from an NCAA member and if he can't get a member institution to propose a rule, the change won't even be considered. Thus the NCAA is free to make rules of the game, forbid member colleges and their employees from paying players. IMO their definition of a representative of a college's athletic interests is overly broad since it includes big buck donors. The NCAA's motivation is rather transparently to gather as much money as possible for themselves and their members at the expense of players. That's why the rules vary from sport to sport. It's in their interest to receive free labor from drafted high school baseball players so the fact they had an agent negotiating for them with MLB is overlooked while football players are suspended for having agents. You have to realize the NCAA is basically a criminal enterprise with a long history of law breaking. From turning a blind eye to institutionalized racism in southern colleges, to trying to control members TV revenues back in the 80s, to violating athletes privacy rights in some states with random drug tests for PEDs, to forbidding students on need based financial aid from walking on in football and basketball but not in other sports, to selling the images of former players to video game companies than pocketing the royalties, to Myles Brand's tax evasion, the NCAA is corrupt. They get mad when called out on it and are remarkably vindictive. Players like Dez Bryant, AJ Green, the Buckeye 5, and probably some of the North Carolina guys get jobbed more than they know. They are told that they signed a contract to obey NCAA rules when they accepted the athletic grant in aid. Players are laymen and don't know that the NCAA insists in court that neither they nor their member institutions have a contractual relationship with athletes. Since players perform services for the college in return for compensation, they might be considered employees for purposes of some laws. The NCAA hates the idea that injured players could receive worker's comp for example. When a player is accused of a rules violation, they tend to receive advice from coaches, or the college's attorney. Even if they do consult with a private attorney, they are probably told the price of fighting would be indefinite suspension due to vindictiveness. I'd fully expect that if one of the Buckeye 5 did challenge the NCAA rule against selling their property, the NCAA would trump up an excuse to not restore eligibility. I'd love to see the NCAA try to suspend some student who turns out to be the favorite nephew of Allen Dershowitz (a famous lawyer and Harvard law professor). That would be good for a laugh when they try to explain how their rules don't violate neutral principles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sparky151 Posted May 31, 2011 Report Share Posted May 31, 2011 [quote name='AZBengal' timestamp='1306811235' post='995393'] It was just a matter of time - it was a foregone conclusion that the slime bag was going to be fired soon anyway if he didn't resign. Maybe one of the sleeziest coaches in NCAA in recent years. [/quote] I read the SI article and thought it was pretty much harmless. Most of it is a rehashing of stuff from the past. The new stuff would be allegations from a former tattoo artist now in prison that other players traded their memorabilia for tattoos. The players denied it so you have a guy in prison saying one thing while a bunch of guys not in prison say the opposite. There's no physical evidence one way or the other. If that article was a brief for the prosecution, the case would be dismissed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legoland Posted May 31, 2011 Report Share Posted May 31, 2011 [quote name='MichaelWeston' timestamp='1306807576' post='995387'] The article was not all that bad. Definitely not as bad as I was expecting. The author has won a pulitzer so he has some cred. Definitely some questions. I am guessing there is more to come and a house of cards will come down as soon as some players start talking more. I still think this is just the begining [/quote] I don't think that was "the article" that theyve been working on. That was their online reaction piece. The damming one was supposed to come out today or tomorrow with the new edition of the magazine. Could be wrong, but I heard about this a week ago. That piece had stuff in it about JT resigning, don't think that was "it". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Le Tigre Posted May 31, 2011 Report Share Posted May 31, 2011 [quote name='AZBengal' timestamp='1306811235' post='995393'] It was just a matter of time - it was a foregone conclusion that the slime bag was going to be fired soon anyway if he didn't resign. Maybe one of the sleeziest coaches in NCAA in recent years. [/quote] Geez...don't make him out to be Jerry Tarkanian. Or Mike Leach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vol_Bengal Posted May 31, 2011 Report Share Posted May 31, 2011 [quote name='bengals8580' timestamp='1306769953' post='995323'] Urban Meyer? Are you guys nuts? What coach would take that job? He's going to be coaching a season or seasons of meaningless football after the NCAA slams OSU with sanctions. Tressel a great guy? Come on, he cheated at Youngstown and now hes been caught cheating at OSU. You back a cheater because he wins. It really shows the true colors of buckeye fans. Well you finally got caught. All those wins he achieved in his career have a big fat asterisk next to them. That national title, asterisk. Last years Sugar Bowl, screw an asterisk, that win will be completely wiped away. Wait til next week when an SI article comes out with new allegations. Hookers for recruits, pay for play, car deals, ted ginn sr being paid to funnel recruits into OSU, players taking 2 week courses and getting full credit. Its easy to recruit when you cheat out your ass. [/quote] There is a good shot it'll be Urban... sure, he has to coach this season without these players for 5 games but the NCAA won't hammer the university now. They'll get a slap on the wrist. This will happen just like UT did/will with Pearl. Mark it down. After next year he may have a couple scholarship reduction for a season and all will go away - because Tressel was gone when it came time for infractions meeting. OSU doesn't do anything that MOST other universities don't do as well... and I can't stand OSU. Lets be honest here. Big time programs HAVE to try and feed the monster that is their flagship program and will go to great lengths to do so. OSU took on Tressel because he was a winner, knowing full well all the whispers at Youngstown St. Kentucky took on Calipari because was a winner, knowing full well all the whispers at UMass and Memphis. MOST big time college programs will attempt to do it in the name of winning. OSU is just the latest to get caught. Period. Ironic though, with Pryor being the media hog a couple years ago during letter of intent season, now essentially being the downfall and undoing of Tressel. Wonder if it'll ever get to the point where coaches will have had enough and just get tired of babysitting and putting up with the nonsense that comes with these 5 star guys that can't get out of their own way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelWeston Posted May 31, 2011 Report Share Posted May 31, 2011 [quote name='Vol_Bengal' timestamp='1306843389' post='995406'] There is a good shot it'll be Urban... sure, he has to coach this season without these players for 5 games but the NCAA won't hammer the university now. They'll get a slap on the wrist. This will happen just like UT did/will with Pearl. Mark it down. After next year he may have a couple scholarship reduction for a season and all will go away - because Tressel was gone when it came time for infractions meeting. OSU doesn't do anything that MOST other universities don't do as well... and I can't stand OSU. Lets be honest here. Big time programs HAVE to try and feed the monster that is their flagship program and will go to great lengths to do so. OSU took on Tressel because he was a winner, knowing full well all the whispers at Youngstown St. Kentucky took on Calipari because was a winner, knowing full well all the whispers at UMass and Memphis. MOST big time college programs will attempt to do it in the name of winning. OSU is just the latest to get caught. Period. Ironic though, with Pryor being the media hog a couple years ago during letter of intent season, now essentially being the downfall and undoing of Tressel. Wonder if it'll ever get to the point where coaches will have had enough and just get tired of babysitting and putting up with the nonsense that comes with these 5 star guys that can't get out of their own way. [/quote] I am sure it happens everywhere....Every coach doesnt sell wholesome though. Although i do think most fans have the "It doesnt happen here we are better then that stance" I am learning that more and more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vol_Bengal Posted May 31, 2011 Report Share Posted May 31, 2011 [quote name='sparky151' timestamp='1306779016' post='995349'] Sigh. What is the NCAA and where does its rule making authority come from? I say the NCAA is an association of colleges and universities and it has the rule making authority they grant it. Do you disagree? If not, it's well established in the law that you can't delegate to a 3rd party a power you don't yourself have. I can't give somebody else power of attorney to sell your house because I don't own it. So the question is whether, NCAA rules aside, OSU can require students generally, and athletes in particular, to sell or not sell their personal property. If OSU were a private institution and the athlete agreed, they probably could. OSU however is a public entity. So the question is whether they can make admission or participation in sports conditional on selling or not selling personal property. The US Supreme court said states couldn't make receiving benefits conditional on exercising or not exercising personal rights in the manner pleasing to whoever was handing out the benefits. Thus public housing agencies can't ban tenants from owning firearms, schools and libraries can't make meeting rooms available only to groups they like, etc. So did the players "agree" to not sell their memorabilia? Maybe. Is that agreement enforceable by the NCAA or OSU? Nope. It's what's called an adhesion clause and would be tossed by any court who examined the matter. Why? Because keeping money out of the hands of college students isn't a lawful purpose by educational institutions. [/quote] OSU is part of the NCAA by their own choosing I assume. They weren't strong-armed into joining. Players sign a LOI that is a contract between said player, school, and the governing body - in this instance the NCAA. The only personal property that the NCAA is commanding is that which was acquired or attained via an NCAA avenue. Meaning, the player got the gifts because of their notoriety gained by playing on the NCAA stage. If the player won a state championship ring in high school the NCAA would have no argument or say in the matter. These players SIGN a contract stating that they'll abide by whatever rules, period. The personal property argument to me is getting lost. If the players isn't playing for OSU, as part of the NCAA, then they're not getting any of this shit (namely, special bowl game gifts, etc.) and aren't getting to sell any of it. But you can argue till your blue in the face - the bottom line is the players sign a contract stating that they've been made aware what what they can't do. The coaches sign a contract at the beginning of each season that states that, as of this time, they're not aware of anything that'd make a player, or players, ineligible. You can agree or disagree with the what the contract stipulates or guarantees, but when it is signed then that the limiting factor. If, after you sign it, you're found to have broken that contract via taking gifts, selling gifts, or lying then you're guilty. If you want to argue the NCAA, then go do that. But not in this topic. It really isn't that difficult - OSU players took gifts (given to them BECAUSE of their play during NCAA sanctioned games) and sold them (they've already been made aware prior that they couldn't do that), coach lied about knowing anything was going on, and now the bottom has fallen out. That is the long and short of it. Same shit happened to Pearl - he lied to the NCAA, period. Once you're there, it is pretty much over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vol_Bengal Posted May 31, 2011 Report Share Posted May 31, 2011 [quote name='MichaelWeston' timestamp='1306844903' post='995408'] I am sure it happens everywhere....Every coach doesnt sell wholesome though. Although i do think most fans have the "It doesnt happen here we are better then that stance" I am learning that more and more. [/quote] No, I'm not saying every coach... Hey - I'm a Tennessee fan, grew up in Cincinnati and have hated UC and OSU my whole life. ALMOST ALL, not every, but MOST college programs get nailed for stuff. Heck, Boise State just got hit for rules infractions. But when the coach, whomever it is, signs a contract with the NCAA, or sits in an interview room with an NCAA investigator and is proven to have lied... then they're screwed. They deserve what they get. Kids are gonna do stupid shit - happens all the time. But when the coach knows about it he should just make an example of the players and get it over with. Tressel should have just brought it to light before the season started, they'd have each been suspended for 4 games (matching what AJ Green got) and moved on. But the struggle to compete against the other schools doing similar things is too great and the W-L's will get a coach fired faster than anything else. If he'd done that and OSU went 7-5 or 8-4 then OSU fans woulda been screaming about the record... no different than fans from any other school. I said it about Bruce Pearl and said it about Tressel. They both deserve what they get. Don't flat out lie to cover shit up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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