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What some Disappointed Romney voters are saying


Homer_Rice

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[url="http://electionresultbutthurt.tumblr.com/"]I know this does not represent the Republican party as a whole.[/url] But it does reflect the views of a portion of the "base" which the party apparatus cultivates. Personally, I hope reasonable Republicans will disavow and repudiate this faction within their party.
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I respond to every single one of them and make them name the specific policies that they disagree with. I also like to site bible passages that talk about greed v ones that talk about helping the less fotunate. From what I can tell a ton of the disagreement with Obama is focused on things they hear from Fox news, Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh which are often lines or simply distortions of the truth.
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Michael I'll let you shoot down my positions point by point and see if you can...

Homosexuality - I'm opposed to that life. I'm not opposed to someone living that life, more power to you. Do I agree with it and like it? No. I'm opposed to making federal laws denying gay marriage, allow individual states to handle it. If that states populace is opposed to gay marriage, look at a civil union giving a gay couple all the same legal protections as a traditional married couple enjoy. But I'm also opposed to my leader "supporting" gay marriage. I see 3 stances to this argument - supporting, blocking, and just letting it lay and making it a state issue. I disagree with outright supporting or blocking it from my leader. I'm proud to say that I live in a happy marriage between myself and my wife. I believe that is how marriage was intended - for the initial purpose of procreation.

Abortion - I'm opposed to abortion; unless the expectant mother is raped or her health is a stake. How anybody can look at an ultrasound, even at 8-10 weeks the heart is beating, etc, and say that isn't a life and it is still legal to kill I don't know. Just my opinion. If financially you can't afford to care for that baby there are thousands of parents that would gladly pay for your care and adopt that baby. To kill the baby as a form of birth control or because you were lax in protection isn't a valid or good reason, IMO.

Birth Control - I agree with using all forms of pre-emptive birth control. I don't approve of the son or daughter being able to get these different means from the school without the parent being made aware of that decision. If nothing else, assuming at that point the parents haven't done their job up to that point, that at least jogs the back and forth discussion that is healthy especially when it comes to matters of sex with your kids.

Less Fortunate v. Successful - I believe that if you looked at the vast majority of moderate conservatives they'll all agree that a big part of life is helping out those that are less fortunate than we are. It is a basic principal of humanity. Where my issue right now is how it is portrayed that people that are trying to be successful and strive to earn greater income are villains. You have no idea how much money they donate to United Way, their church charity, giving additional supplies to the school for other kids., etc., etc. the list goes on and on. But it is broad stroke painted as though they're scrooges and hoard everything. Success is vilified. Sure, there are folks like that - just as there are in all political realms. But the vast majority aren't like that. My only question with this regard is at what point is enough, enough?

Regulation - I'm for free market and its prosperity. With that, I believe there are levels of regulation required to keep everything on an even plain. Utilities, banking, etc. are such easy industries to "cut up" customer bases and agree to not compete against each other and at that point each provider can then kind of set their own "price". That is wrong - regulation would keep those things from occurring and keep these services affordable.

Less Tax, Less Spending - I believe in the model that I work hard every day and I would like to keep as much of my money as I possibly can. Call that greed if you'd like - I don't see it that way. I think those taxes should be used to help the less fortunate with ESSENTIALS. They should also be used to build our country, not other countries in the form of bribes, infrastructure, or what have you. We need to get out of the nation building business. I believe in a strong military - but we're spending more than the next 10 countries spend on their military combined. That is excessive.

I think that is all for now - how much do I agree with Obama, or Romney for that matter?
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Wow that link was...not sure what the correct words would be.

I am pleased by the overwhelming sadness as its only their own ignorance holding them back, but rather taken back by how uninhibited they are from throwing words like "nigger" around. I mean give someone like Elflocko your real name and 10 minutes and he can likely pull up everything you've ever posted on the internet under your name. What is the world going to be like in 10 years? Is there any chance people aren't looking for this stuff during the job application process in 10 years? After all it is on the internet...forever.
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[quote name='Vol_Bengal' timestamp='1352407830' post='1178712']
Michael I'll let you shoot down my positions point by point and see if you can...

Homosexuality - I'm opposed to that life. I'm not opposed to someone living that life, more power to you. Do I agree with it and like it? No. I'm opposed to making federal laws denying gay marriage, allow individual states to handle it. If that states populace is opposed to gay marriage, look at a civil union giving a gay couple all the same legal protections as a traditional married couple enjoy. But I'm also opposed to my leader "supporting" gay marriage. I see 3 stances to this argument - supporting, blocking, and just letting it lay and making it a state issue. I disagree with outright supporting or blocking it from my leader. I'm proud to say that I live in a happy marriage between myself and my wife. I believe that is how marriage was intended - for the initial purpose of procreation.

Abortion - I'm opposed to abortion; unless the expectant mother is raped or her health is a stake. How anybody can look at an ultrasound, even at 8-10 weeks the heart is beating, etc, and say that isn't a life and it is still legal to kill I don't know. Just my opinion. If financially you can't afford to care for that baby there are thousands of parents that would gladly pay for your care and adopt that baby. To kill the baby as a form of birth control or because you were lax in protection isn't a valid or good reason, IMO.

Birth Control - I agree with using all forms of pre-emptive birth control. I don't approve of the son or daughter being able to get these different means from the school without the parent being made aware of that decision. If nothing else, assuming at that point the parents haven't done their job up to that point, that at least jogs the back and forth discussion that is healthy especially when it comes to matters of sex with your kids.

Less Fortunate v. Successful - I believe that if you looked at the vast majority of moderate conservatives they'll all agree that a big part of life is helping out those that are less fortunate than we are. It is a basic principal of humanity. Where my issue right now is how it is portrayed that people that are trying to be successful and strive to earn greater income are villains. You have no idea how much money they donate to United Way, their church charity, giving additional supplies to the school for other kids., etc., etc. the list goes on and on. But it is broad stroke painted as though they're scrooges and hoard everything. Success is vilified. Sure, there are folks like that - just as there are in all political realms. But the vast majority aren't like that. My only question with this regard is at what point is enough, enough?

Regulation - I'm for free market and its prosperity. With that, I believe there are levels of regulation required to keep everything on an even plain. Utilities, banking, etc. are such easy industries to "cut up" customer bases and agree to not compete against each other and at that point each provider can then kind of set their own "price". That is wrong - regulation would keep those things from occurring and keep these services affordable.

Less Tax, Less Spending - I believe in the model that I work hard every day and I would like to keep as much of my money as I possibly can. Call that greed if you'd like - I don't see it that way. I think those taxes should be used to help the less fortunate with ESSENTIALS. They should also be used to build our country, not other countries in the form of bribes, infrastructure, or what have you. We need to get out of the nation building business. I believe in a strong military - but we're spending more than the next 10 countries spend on their military combined. That is excessive.

I think that is all for now - how much do I agree with Obama, or Romney for that matter?
[/quote]

Have not read it yet. But my point was not you should never want Romney to win. It was that if you are posting ridiculous things like that on facebook it's likely that you don't have the arguments that you have in the above post that I have not read yet. Very smart people vote for Romney. Very few smart people post crap like that where other people can see it. Smart people don't think he is a Kenyan, muslim or a socialist. Smart people ralize that if you don't like Gay marriage, taxes or health care Canada isn't the best place in the world for you.
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[quote name='MichaelWeston' timestamp='1352411087' post='1178722']
Have not read it yet. But my point was not you should never want Romney to win. It was that if you are posting ridiculous things like that on facebook it's likely that you don't have the arguments that you have in the above post that I have not read yet. Very smart people vote for Romney. Very few smart people post crap like that where other people can see it.
[/quote]

Gotcha... and to that I agree. People that say that stupid crap are... well, stupid. Same with the people who said they were going to "riot" if Obama lost.

And, Squirrel is right on this - these people are risking current and future employment. Which, frankly, looking at them is probably a good thing. People need to learn to step back, evaluate, and respond... not shoot from the hip.
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[b]Interesting discussusion. Here is what I think below.[/b]

Michael I'll let you shoot down my positions point by point and see if you can...

Homosexuality - I'm opposed to that life. I'm not opposed to someone living that life, more power to you. Do I agree with it and like it? No. I'm opposed to making federal laws denying gay marriage, allow individual states to handle it. If that states populace is opposed to gay marriage, look at a civil union giving a gay couple all the same legal protections as a traditional married couple enjoy. But I'm also opposed to my leader "supporting" gay marriage. I see 3 stances to this argument - supporting, blocking, and just letting it lay and making it a state issue. I disagree with outright supporting or blocking it from my leader. I'm proud to say that I live in a happy marriage between myself and my wife. I believe that is how marriage was intended - for the initial purpose of procreation.

[b]What if I said I was oppossed to your straight life? What if society said you were wrong to be straight? When you decided to be straight what was that decision like for you? You can't just take away someone's rights because you believe that's the case. [/b][b]Besides, who in the world are they harming? [/b]

[b]If sex and marriage is only for procreation do you believe that sex before marriage should also be banned? What about me? I am steril. Can I get married. My buddy had his junk blown off in the Iraq war. Does he need to get a divorce? Were not rabbits. We are one of the few species that mate for pleasure...enjoy it. [/b]

Abortion - I'm opposed to abortion; unless the expectant mother is raped or her health is a stake. How anybody can look at an ultrasound, even at 8-10 weeks the heart is beating, etc, and say that isn't a life and it is still legal to kill I don't know. Just my opinion. If financially you can't afford to care for that baby there are thousands of parents that would gladly pay for your care and adopt that baby. To kill the baby as a form of birth control or because you were lax in protection isn't a valid or good reason, IMO.

[b]This is fine for my life. I don't think I could do abortion. But, how anyone can stare at a baby cow and kill it for food is absurd to me. Should we ban all hunting based off my opinion of hunting? Your statement about there being thousands of parents is wrong. Thousands of kids grow up in the foster system and in orphanages. If you are willing to make everyone have the baby are you also willing to, with your tax dollars, pay to feed, clothe, shelter them? What percentage of low income people have abortions?[/b]

Birth Control - I agree with using all forms of pre-emptive birth control. I don't approve of the son or daughter being able to get these different means from the school without the parent being made aware of that decision. If nothing else, assuming at that point the parents haven't done their job up to that point, that at least jogs the back and forth discussion that is healthy especially when it comes to matters of sex with your kids.

[b]Kids [b]shouldn't [/b]have sex unless its for procreation...right.[/b]

Less Fortunate v. Successful - I believe that if you looked at the vast majority of moderate conservatives they'll all agree that a big part of life is helping out those that are less fortunate than we are. It is a basic principal of humanity. Where my issue right now is how it is portrayed that people that are trying to be successful and strive to earn greater income are villains. You have no idea how much money they donate to United Way, their church charity, giving additional supplies to the school for other kids., etc., etc. the list goes on and on. But it is broad stroke painted as though they're scrooges and hoard everything. Success is vilified. Sure, there are folks like that - just as there are in all political realms. But the vast majority aren't like that. My only question with this regard is at what point is enough, enough?

[b]Success defined as how much money you make should be villified. I don't understand how you can say you are a Christian and then everyday go to a job where the entire purpose is to make yourself or your organization as much money as you possibly can. It baffles me. Monetary success is villified because too often it comes as a result of economic darwinism where the ends justify the means and too little do companies think about what they are doing to the societies they live in, the environment and the individuals they employ. It's about profit maximization. That's a cold harded way to look at life. It's also villified because people who are financially successful seem to have disdain for those who are'nt and call them lazy and moochers. As if everyone starts from the same point, had the same benefits and same skill set but someone else didn't make it because they just didn't try. It's also villified because many of us believe in people and community over money and individual profit maximization. [/b]

Regulation - I'm for free market and its prosperity. With that, I believe there are levels of regulation required to keep everything on an even plain. Utilities, banking, etc. are such easy industries to "cut up" customer bases and agree to not compete against each other and at that point each provider can then kind of set their own "price". That is wrong - regulation would keep those things from occurring and keep these services affordable.

[b]Environmental Regulation, Housing regulation and Wall Street regulation are all necessitites because people who are more "successfull" tend to change the rules and/or take advantage of those who don't know the rules. (Another reason they are villfied)[/b]

Less Tax, Less Spending - I believe in the model that I work hard every day and I would like to keep as much of my money as I possibly can. Call that greed if you'd like - I don't see it that way. I think those taxes should be used to help the less fortunate with ESSENTIALS. They should also be used to build our country, not other countries in the form of bribes, infrastructure, or what have you. We need to get out of the nation building business. I believe in a strong military - but we're spending more than the next 10 countries spend on their military combined. That is excessive.

[b]I agree. [/b]

I think that is all for now - how much do I agree with Obama, or Romney for that matter?
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[quote name='Vol_Bengal' timestamp='1352407830' post='1178712']
Michael I'll let you shoot down my positions point by point and see if you can...

Homosexuality - I'm opposed to that life. I'm not opposed to someone living that life, more power to you. Do I agree with it and like it? No. I'm opposed to making federal laws denying gay marriage, allow individual states to handle it. If that states populace is opposed to gay marriage, look at a civil union giving a gay couple all the same legal protections as a traditional married couple enjoy. But I'm also opposed to my leader "supporting" gay marriage. I see 3 stances to this argument - supporting, blocking, and just letting it lay and making it a state issue. I disagree with outright supporting or blocking it from my leader. I'm proud to say that I live in a happy marriage between myself and my wife. I believe that is how marriage was intended - for the initial purpose of procreation.

Abortion - I'm opposed to abortion; unless the expectant mother is raped or her health is a stake. How anybody can look at an ultrasound, even at 8-10 weeks the heart is beating, etc, and say that isn't a life and it is still legal to kill I don't know. Just my opinion. If financially you can't afford to care for that baby there are thousands of parents that would gladly pay for your care and adopt that baby. To kill the baby as a form of birth control or because you were lax in protection isn't a valid or good reason, IMO.

Birth Control - I agree with using all forms of pre-emptive birth control. I don't approve of the son or daughter being able to get these different means from the school without the parent being made aware of that decision. If nothing else, assuming at that point the parents haven't done their job up to that point, that at least jogs the back and forth discussion that is healthy especially when it comes to matters of sex with your kids.

Less Fortunate v. Successful - I believe that if you looked at the vast majority of moderate conservatives they'll all agree that a big part of life is helping out those that are less fortunate than we are. It is a basic principal of humanity. Where my issue right now is how it is portrayed that people that are trying to be successful and strive to earn greater income are villains. You have no idea how much money they donate to United Way, their church charity, giving additional supplies to the school for other kids., etc., etc. the list goes on and on. But it is broad stroke painted as though they're scrooges and hoard everything. Success is vilified. Sure, there are folks like that - just as there are in all political realms. But the vast majority aren't like that. My only question with this regard is at what point is enough, enough?

Regulation - I'm for free market and its prosperity. With that, I believe there are levels of regulation required to keep everything on an even plain. Utilities, banking, etc. are such easy industries to "cut up" customer bases and agree to not compete against each other and at that point each provider can then kind of set their own "price". That is wrong - regulation would keep those things from occurring and keep these services affordable.

Less Tax, Less Spending - I believe in the model that I work hard every day and I would like to keep as much of my money as I possibly can. Call that greed if you'd like - I don't see it that way. I think those taxes should be used to help the less fortunate with ESSENTIALS. They should also be used to build our country, not other countries in the form of bribes, infrastructure, or what have you. We need to get out of the nation building business. I believe in a strong military - but we're spending more than the next 10 countries spend on their military combined. That is excessive.

I think that is all for now - how much do I agree with Obama, or Romney for that matter?
[/quote]

thats kind of the problem, neither candidate supports your views. furthermore, gay marriage, abortion, and birth control should ahve no place in government or politics. your opinion shouldnt effect my life at all, for government to prevent abortions or birth control or have any hand in gay marriage is ridiculous. the bible has nothing to do with my life, and no one should be "forced" to live by anything that has to do with the bible. thats an injustice no any non christian, the government should stay out of that all together.

i can kind of see some people having an issue with tax money funding planned parenthood type services, HOWEVER, its pretty clear that the foundation of the country was intended to not be based on any one religion, and its cannot spend and act in the interests of any one religion. So by living here and paying taxes you are basically allowing/agreeing to the government to spend as they see fit, regardless of religion and personal preferences. and the planned parenthood type places do a tremendous amount of good in preventing STD's, and other horrible things that would be running rampid otherwise. its a public safety thing as much as it is a devil machine to the far right wing..

aside from that tidbit. it really just looks like you want a fair and efficient government. which i think EveryonE wants....

everyone does things that are immoral to someone else, everyone, literally everyone.

i may think abortion is horrible and disgusting, but why would i get to play god and tell others what to do??? i feel everyone should make their own choices on those topics, forcing people to have babies sounds like we are all cave men, ladies can make their own life choices. as can the gays and such... their lives, not mine, if i raise my children to my moral guidelines its not gonna matter.. they wont be in a position to make an abortion decision, and if one of them turns out to be gay, they deserve to make all of the same life choices i had, to be married to have a family, etc. who is anyone to say otherwise? i dont see how anyone can feel they have the right to make personal life choices for others...
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I should add this comment. I don't remember what the reaction was to Gore's loss vis-a-vis personal attacks on GWB. But us opponents of Bush tended to get more vocal once he started in with the Patriot Act, war-mongering crap. I still think he and some select others belong in jail. In some respects, not that far from the same kind of reasoning, I think perhaps Obama should be in jail for elements of his national security policy. Sadly, neither of them will ever be prosecuted by an international court of law, a la Nuremberg. But the attacks were generally not so personally threatening, nor racist as these. And that's because most of the overtly racist component of our nation (i.e. neo-Confederates for lack of a better term) associates itself with the Republican party. You can thank Nixon and his strategists for that. They explicitly worked at, and succeeded at, peeling off the Wallace voters and the southern Democrats for whom this sort of craziness is important.

I do remember quit vividly the days after Reagan got elected. Many on the left were in just as shrill a state of mind, but again, without as much of the personal vitriol. The situation was similar, too, in this respect: a lot of folks were weary after 4 years of ineffective President Carter.
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The only person I saw on Fox News that seemed biased during the election was Rove. He would not give in on the Ohio vote, and myself I hate when they "predict" the election. If anyone was watching, Fox News projected Obama the President before a lot of the other stations. Rove just kept going on and on about people he knew and talked to on the phone that said not to give up.
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[quote name='Lucid' timestamp='1352416381' post='1178767']
Could you perhaps expound upon this a bit?
[/quote]

Briefly:

--GITMO Detention center still open;
--US Citizens can be unlawfully detained under military jurisdiction;
--drone attacks which violate national soveriegnty, also lots of covert military action doing same;
--has actually assassinated at least one US citizen, authority claimed by Obama (via Holder)

This stuff is not in the headlines so much anymore, but it's worth reviewing and comparing the Bush record and the Obama record on national security to see where he has backed-off Bush policy and where he has accepted and deepened it.
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So Obama is not only ignoring his stance to fix what Bush did, but is under the cover of night conducting secret operations that go totally against his stance of the military? Seems about right. Let's not forget all the Iranian scientist that are mysteriously being killed in car bombs and such.
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[quote name='Lewdog' timestamp='1352419410' post='1178787']
The only person I saw on Fox News that seemed biased during the election was Rove.
[/quote]

Not sure you watched very long. The tone of their entire news presentation is slanted as Republicans good, democrats bad. It claims to be christian and right leaning and then blames the poor and less fortunate as leaches. WWJD
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[quote name='Lewdog' timestamp='1352421107' post='1178799']
So Obama is not only ignoring his stance to fix what Bush did, but is under the cover of night conducting secret operations that go totally against his stance of the military? Seems about right. Let's not forget all the Iranian scientist that are mysteriously being killed in car bombs and such.
[/quote]

I didn't say that. The world is not quite so simple and some decisions are difficult. And in other venues, his State Dept has improved relations with other nations a great deal over the Bush admin.

As for the car bombs in Iran. Probably mostly the Israelis and surrogates doing that, but maybe with some US complicity as well. We don't know for sure. I do think this is true and it's a shame that it got little notice because it happened while the electioneering was going hot and heavy, but the Obama admin made it very clear to Netanyahoo that attacking Iran preemptively was not going to be unilaterally supported by the US. So the proto-fascists in Israel backed off.
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[quote name='Homer_Rice' timestamp='1352422353' post='1178809']
I didn't say that. The world is not quite so simple and some decisions are difficult. And in other venues, his State Dept has improved relations with other nations a great deal over the Bush admin.

As for the car bombs in Iran. Probably mostly the Israelis and surrogates doing that, but maybe with some US complicity as well. We don't know for sure. I do think this is true and it's a shame that it got little notice because it happened while the electioneering was going hot and heavy, but the Obama admin made it very clear to Netanyahoo that attacking Iran preemptively was not going to be unilaterally supported by the US. So the proto-fascists in Israel backed off.
[/quote]

No you don't have to say it, but I understand. I made argument on another forum that what Wikileaks was doing was unjustified. There are in fact somethings that are better left unsaid. Anytime you put something into the mainstream public that gets innocent individuals killed, the you're at fault. Not because you put it a secret out there for others to read, but the fact that you put it out there with the intent of creating harm to others. Asange has had malicious intent all along, so when one of his hackers takes information about a secret meeting between two countries or enlightens the world on Hillary Clinton really feels about some world leaders, and brings that information to the light when it isn't meant to be, he can't just throw is hands up in innocence when some American gets killed over it.
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[quote name='Homer_Rice' timestamp='1352420893' post='1178797']
Briefly:

--GITMO Detention center still open;[/quote]

I am disappointed he hasn't closed it, too. I admit I'm not sure how it's structured legally - could he simply sign an executive order and be done with it?

[quote] --US Citizens can be unlawfully detained under military jurisdiction; [/quote]

Also fucked up, but again.. This all stems from the Patriot Act, which unfortunately nobody in Washington seems willing to challenge.

[quote] --drone attacks which violate national soveriegnty, also lots of covert military action doing same; [/quote]

Disagree with you here. I will respect the sovereignty of Pakistan when they demonstrate that they have such a thing. "Administered tribal areas" are not a nation. There is no question in my mind that they knowingly provided a safe haven for bin Laden & continue to support al-Qaeda, covertly through the ISI as well as by their own inaction. If that is due to inability, well.. we [i]are[/i] able. If that is due to unwillingness, that makes them complicit.

[quote] --has actually assassinated at least one US citizen, authority claimed by Obama (via Holder) [/quote]

I assume you mean al-Awlaki? I think becoming a high-ranking member of a global terrorist organization with the expressed intent of destroying this country effectively negates one's claim to the protections afforded its citizens. Do you think Yemen was going to allow us to go in and serve a warrant?
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