|kennethmw| Posted March 2, 2013 Report Share Posted March 2, 2013 How many guys do you think we can afford to have be the top paid player at their position? How many 10 plus mil year a guys do you think we will be able to have on this roster? Im not talking about 2013 but 2014, 2015 and beyond. By 2015 AJ will likely be making 15M a year. Atkins probably 10 plus. Dalton by then if he has a couple good years will easily get 10M even if he is just a slightly above average type QB. Those guys still get paid bank. If he has some pro bowl years that number will shoot closer to 15M. MJ and Dunlap? If we keep one of them long term it will be likely 8M plus a year, if we keep both, double that probably. Call me cheap, call me mike brown, call me whatever you want. But at the end of the day it is just way to simple to say "We have 40M in cap space, he is a top RT in the game, pay him whatever he wants". Just doesnt seem to be that easy to me. My guess (not necessarily what I want, but my guess) is that we sign him for somewhere in the 7M a year range or he walks. I just dont think we are going to pay him 9M a year if he gets that on the open market. Just not gonna happen IMO. Here's the rub, though. Even though you may be paying guys 10 million a year, that doesn't have to necessarily be their "Cap Value". Flacco is going to average 20 Mill a year, but if that deal is structured right, which I'm sure it is, that Cap hit will be 10 or less. as far as how many 10 mill guys you can have, probably 3-4 on each side of the ball. If you paid Andre, my guess is he would be the first on the O side right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldcat Posted March 2, 2013 Report Share Posted March 2, 2013 Lets say this team has 4 holes right now (assuming we sign our other FAs outside of Andre). RT, LB, S, and RB. Everyone is wanting to fill RT with Andre and then fill the other 3 in the first 2 rounds of the draft (or most people are anyways). Lets say it costs us 9M a year to retain Andre. Then we draft a LB, S, and RB early and expect those rookies to play well right away. What if instead we take the 9 mil and sign a solid starting LB and solid starting S. Maybe not top tier guys, but solid starters none the less. Now we only have holes at RT and RB. Find a good RT prospect in the first two rounds and let him compete with collins or wharton or whoever. Maybe RT isnt as good as it was in 2012, but you can probably be assured that the LB and S positions will be cause we signed solid FAs in those two spots. It would also likely be easier to extend other guys in the future as we wont have a big 9-10 M contract on the books for Andre. Im not saying this is what will happen or that this is necessarily what I want to happen, im just saying how good this offseason is doesnt completely hinge on whether or not we resign Andre. Of course, if our 1st round pick and best FA acquisition both get hurt and never see the field, as happened last year, we'd be up a creek. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|kennethmw| Posted March 2, 2013 Report Share Posted March 2, 2013 Smith is the embodiment of what was wrong with the old system. He was making about $3 million more per season than he should have been making on a rookie deal. Aj Green is making less than $5 million per season on his rookie deal. Smith is making $7 million. Heck, Andrew Luck is only making $5.5 million per season as the #1 pick under the new system. Very true, and that's why they fixed it, however, it's not Smith's fault that he got drafted when he did. Don't hate the playa, hate the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bengals1181 Posted March 2, 2013 Report Share Posted March 2, 2013 How many guys do you think we can afford to have be the top paid player at their position? How many 10 plus mil year a guys do you think we will be able to have on this roster? Im not talking about 2013 but 2014, 2015 and beyond. By 2015 AJ will likely be making 15M a year. Atkins probably 10 plus. Dalton by then if he has a couple good years will easily get 10M even if he is just a slightly above average type QB. Those guys still get paid bank. If he has some pro bowl years that number will shoot closer to 15M. MJ and Dunlap? If we keep one of them long term it will be likely 8M plus a year, if we keep both, double that probably. Call me cheap, call me mike brown, call me whatever you want. But at the end of the day it is just way to simple to say "We have 40M in cap space, he is a top RT in the game, pay him whatever he wants". Just doesnt seem to be that easy to me. My guess (not necessarily what I want, but my guess) is that we sign him for somewhere in the 7M a year range or he walks. I just dont think we are going to pay him 9M a year if he gets that on the open market. Just not gonna happen IMO. I have a feeling his new deal might end up being similar to his rookie deal ( 6yrs $42 million voided to 4 yrs $28 million, $21 million guaranteed). Say 6yrs $49 million with a club option to void it to 4yrs $31 million. $23 million guaranteed. The same weekly weight clause, and maybe incentives if he takes a certain percentage of snaps at left tackle (that part would be new). Protects the Bengals and gives Andre the chance to get his $9 million per season in the last two years if he earns it. He still gets a bunch of guaranteed money, which was the kicker with his rookie deal. It was a small deal, but he still got $21 million guaranteed. May see that again. The Bengals trade a higher percentage of guaranteed money for the addition of the weight clause and voidable years. Andre may even welcome the voidable years as he'd hit free agency again at only the age of 30. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBandJoeyV Posted March 2, 2013 Report Share Posted March 2, 2013 Here's the rub, though. Even though you may be paying guys 10 million a year, that doesn't have to necessarily be their "Cap Value". Flacco is going to average 20 Mill a year, but if that deal is structured right, which I'm sure it is, that Cap hit will be 10 or less. as far as how many 10 mill guys you can have, probably 3-4 on each side of the ball. If you paid Andre, my guess is he would be the first on the O side right now. I dont think we structure contracts like the ravens do. Flaccos cap hit this year might only be 7M but in the future it means it should be over 22-25M in certain years down the road right? Dont get me wrong, we can afford andre now. Easily. But will we be able to afford other guys 2-3 years from now if his cap hit in years 3-4-5 etc of his contract are 10M plus a year like in your sample contract you posted earlier.Of course, if our 1st round pick and best FA acquisition both get hurt and never see the field, as happened last year, we'd be up a creek. If andre gets hurt same thing. You cant protect yourself from injuries besides just having a deeper roster. Best way to have a deeper roster is to draft well and dont over pay guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBandJoeyV Posted March 2, 2013 Report Share Posted March 2, 2013 I have a feeling his new deal might end up being similar to his rookie deal ( 6yrs $42 million voided to 4 yrs $28 million, $21 million guaranteed). Say 6yrs $49 million with a club option to void it to 4yrs $31 million. $23 million guaranteed. The same weekly weight clause, and maybe incentives if he takes a certain percentage of snaps at left tackle (that part would be new). Protects the Bengals and gives Andre the chance to get his $9 million per season in the last two years if he earns it. He still gets a bunch of guaranteed money, which was the kicker with his rookie deal. It was a small deal, but he still got $21 million guaranteed. May see that again. The Bengals trade a higher percentage of guaranteed money for the addition of the weight clause and voidable years. Andre may even welcome the voidable years as he'd hit free agency again at only the age of 30. That would work for me, but some team might overpay him on the market. Hopefully they dont though due to his issues early in his career, his offseason arrest, etc. My point is if a team overpays for Andre, hes gone. We arent going to really over pay for the guy. Just not the way mike does business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JC Posted March 2, 2013 Report Share Posted March 2, 2013 By the end of the contract, he likely won't be the highest paid RT. With the cap more than likely going to increase in the future years, I think they should definitely pay the man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-Dub Posted March 2, 2013 Report Share Posted March 2, 2013 From what I've read there are several OT's about to hit free agency, depending on last-minute extensions or franchise tags. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBandJoeyV Posted March 2, 2013 Report Share Posted March 2, 2013 By the end of the contract, he likely won't be the highest paid RT. With the cap more than likely going to increase in the future years, I think they should definitely pay the man. Ive heard the cap is going to be relatively flat over the next several years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldcat Posted March 2, 2013 Report Share Posted March 2, 2013 If andre gets hurt same thing. You cant protect yourself from injuries besides just having a deeper roster. Best way to have a deeper roster is to draft well and dont over pay guys. Ours tend to be flatter, that's true, so the back years are more affordable. Maybe in this circumstance we front load some - instead of a spread out bonus you just hit it in year one when we have cap. You have to pull off these great drafts more often if you don't resign your own, too. I'm sure there's a line, but I'm not sure 9 mil is over that line if he keeps playing well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|kennethmw| Posted March 2, 2013 Report Share Posted March 2, 2013 I dont think we structure contracts like the ravens do. Flaccos cap hit this year might only be 7M but in the future it means it should be over 22-25M in certain years down the road right? Dont get me wrong, we can afford andre now. Easily. But will we be able to afford other guys 2-3 years from now if his cap hit in years 3-4-5 etc of his contract are 10M plus a year like in your sample contract you posted earlier. If andre gets hurt same thing. You cant protect yourself from injuries besides just having a deeper roster. Best way to have a deeper roster is to draft well and dont over pay guys. You don't think so? Here's Leons: http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/cincinnati-bengals/leon-hall/ Here's Cooks: http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/cincinnati-bengals/kyle-cook Here's Geathers: http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/cincinnati-bengals/robert-geathers/ Now, I will agree that we don't BACKLOAD contracts, but most of them are structured so the Cap Cost goes up over time, because you expect the Cap Ceiling to do the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Le Tigre Posted March 2, 2013 Report Share Posted March 2, 2013 Lets say this team has 4 holes right now (assuming we sign our other FAs outside of Andre). RT, LB, S, and RB. Everyone is wanting to fill RT with Andre and then fill the other 3 in the first 2 rounds of the draft (or most people are anyways). Lets say it costs us 9M a year to retain Andre. Then we draft a LB, S, and RB early and expect those rookies to play well right away. What if instead we take the 9 mil and sign a solid starting LB and solid starting S. Maybe not top tier guys, but solid starters none the less. Now we only have holes at RT and RB. Find a good RT prospect in the first two rounds and let him compete with collins or wharton or whoever. Maybe RT isnt as good as it was in 2012, but you can probably be assured that the LB and S positions will be cause we signed solid FAs in those two spots. It would also likely be easier to extend other guys in the future as we wont have a big 9-10 M contract on the books for Andre. Im not saying this is what will happen or that this is necessarily what I want to happen, im just saying how good this offseason is doesnt completely hinge on whether or not we resign Andre. This is a logical approach...and in theory, could work. But, all of the elements would have to fall in place just right, or you have a downgrade--and one that is crucial. Looking to future contracts, while sensible long-range budgetary planning, should not override the present. This is still a very tough division...and a rapidly improving overall AFC. In order to keep Playoff caliber-ready, you need every Grade A player you can get and keep on your roster. And betting on unknown draft picks, under-talented FA's, or Anthony Collins, is stepping backwards at a time when you simply can't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-Dub Posted March 2, 2013 Report Share Posted March 2, 2013 You have to pull off these great drafts more often if you don't resign your own, too. I'm sure there's a line, but I'm not sure 9 mil is over that line if he keeps playing well. I assume you're suggesting that the extra money would be heavily incentive-based? Under those circumstances it could be reasonable, I agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|kennethmw| Posted March 2, 2013 Report Share Posted March 2, 2013 Ive heard the cap is going to be relatively flat over the next several years. It's considered relatively flat this year, but going up 2 mill gives you 10 mill in cap room. Look back at prev post where I explained that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scharm Posted March 2, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 2, 2013 Arguing over a mill here and a mill there. No one has really addressed the replacement question. One is a 2nd-Tier FA...not even treading water, and the other is wasting a first round pick on someone you pray to heaven can hit the ground running...or a 3rd-4th rounder you know won't. Show me different...I want to believe it. And lol @ Collins full-time anywhere. Too important a position to be fucking around with over a stray million. There is some quality on FA market. You are crazy if you are calling 2nd tier. Bushrod has to a pro bowl. Baker is tough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Le Tigre Posted March 3, 2013 Report Share Posted March 3, 2013 Quality is in the eye of the beholder. Bushrod is OK...but had a very down 2012. If you are talking about Baker of the Falcons...the guy is a LT...and not real solid either. Plus an iffy back. Neither is In Andre's area code. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|westside bengal| Posted March 3, 2013 Report Share Posted March 3, 2013 Kenneth is right. It is all about the yearly cap cost and how the contract is structured. And every team has those 7-10 players who are considered the "core" and should be paid as such. And as Scharm has said elsewhere and I agree, the Bengals are in their 2-4 year "window of opportunity." It's time for the Bengals to go all in. The real question is....Can the Bengals get a better player than Andre for the same money or get an equal player for less? If the answer is no then they have to pay the price. It is going to be the same for MJ, AJ, Carlos, Geno and if they think Andy is the answer then him too. And over the next couple of years a few more will pop up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squirrlnutz Posted March 3, 2013 Report Share Posted March 3, 2013 Market will be flooded with tackles. We are the ultimate "let the market dictate your price" team so there's no doubt in my mind he's going to test Free Agency. I think he wants to play LT and if someone will give him a shot and that kinda contract we'll let him walk. But I'm confident we'd match any offer from a team who wants him at RT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBandJoeyV Posted March 3, 2013 Report Share Posted March 3, 2013 Kenneth is right. It is all about the yearly cap cost and how the contract is structured. And every team has those 7-10 players who are considered the "core" and should be paid as such. And as Scharm has said elsewhere and I agree, the Bengals are in their 2-4 year "window of opportunity." It's time for the Bengals to go all in. The real question is....Can the Bengals get a better player than Andre for the same money or get an equal player for less? If the answer is no then they have to pay the price. It is going to be the same for MJ, AJ, Carlos, Geno and if they think Andy is the answer then him too. And over the next couple of years a few more will pop up. So we should pay mj, aj, Carlos, geno, Andy, and Andre all as elite players? Just rough numbers but that could cost 9 mil for Andre, 10 mil for Carlos and mj each, 12 mil for Atkins, 10 for Andy and 15 for aj. That might not be their cap hit each year but on average it could be. That's like 65 mil for 6 guys. Half the salary cap on 6 of 53 players. Once again those numbers are just tough numbers but I just don't think it's gonna be as easy as a lot of you think it will be to sign all these guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldcat Posted March 3, 2013 Report Share Posted March 3, 2013 So we should pay mj, aj, Carlos, geno, Andy, and Andre all as elite players? Just rough numbers but that could cost 9 mil for Andre, 10 mil for Carlos and mj each, 12 mil for Atkins, 10 for Andy and 15 for aj. That might not be their cap hit each year but on average it could be. That's like 65 mil for 6 guys. Half the salary cap on 6 of 53 players. Once again those numbers are just tough numbers but I just don't think it's gonna be as easy as a lot of you think it will be to sign all these guys. Sure, but finding their replacements isn't easy either. How long have we tried to replace TJ Houshmanzadeh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvin Posted March 3, 2013 Report Share Posted March 3, 2013 Hopkins and Taverres King. King is under the radar right now but was Green's no.2 in college. Marvin Jones like skillset but already a little better imo. Nice value in rounds 3-4.Kenneth is right. It is all about the yearly cap cost and how the contract is structured. And every team has those 7-10 players who are considered the "core" and should be paid as such. And as Scharm has said elsewhere and I agree, the Bengals are in their 2-4 year "window of opportunity." It's time for the Bengals to go all in. The real question is....Can the Bengals get a better player than Andre for the same money or get an equal player for less? If the answer is no then they have to pay the price. It is going to be the same for MJ, AJ, Carlos, Geno and if they think Andy is the answer then him too. And over the next couple of years a few more will pop up. There will be loses. It happens on every roster. I don't want the team to hamstring itself for a RT, repeated a RT. Not a LT, the blindside job, a RT. A team that pays its RT 9 + million is not using its resources appropriately. Additionally, that team will not be successful. Which RT has brought his team to the Super Bowl? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvin Posted March 3, 2013 Report Share Posted March 3, 2013 I'm still a neophyte with the responses and such. English: I respect your insight but why waste a 2nd or 3rd on a redundant WR. Either you're giving up on Mo and Jones or your not. Taking Woods or Patton (or similar 2 or 3 talent) doesn't improve the situation, it only waters it down. And you blew a valuable selection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvin Posted March 3, 2013 Report Share Posted March 3, 2013 It's considered relatively flat this year, but going up 2 mill gives you 10 mill in cap room. Look back at prev post where I explained that. I'm probably missing something but where did you ever explain anything? At the very least, I explained it and you kept on quoting that "2 million gives you 10 million in cap room". Maybe your bombast restriction has left you vulnerable? Or maybe your point is always lost in bombastic exclamation for a reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HairOnFire Posted March 3, 2013 Report Share Posted March 3, 2013 Smith is the embodiment of what was wrong with the old system. He was making about $3 million more per season than he should have been making on a rookie deal. Full disclosure, I'm a huge Andre fan. Pimped him hard before he was drafted and defended both the selection and the player afterwards. But ignoring all other considerations, it is Smith's contract, the last of a very bad bunch, that puts his stay in Cincy in jeapordy. Frankly, it's a tough choice made even tougher precisely because Smith is outstanding, but also replaceable, this year or next. Worse, when the dollar figures being discussed get too large it becomes a case where Smith SHOULD be replaced. Personally, I hope they get something done...even if it means overpaying at the RT position again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|kennethmw| Posted March 3, 2013 Report Share Posted March 3, 2013 I'm probably missing something but where did you ever explain anything? At the very least, I explained it and you kept on quoting that "2 million gives you 10 million in cap room". Maybe your bombast restriction has left you vulnerable? Or maybe your point is always lost in bombastic exclamation for a reason. I posted the basics of the idea on page three? Maybe you missed it in all my bombastic restriction and exclamations. Sorry I couldn't do a better job for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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