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MichaelWeston

Guns in America

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I have thought about this issue for years wavering back and forth.  Here is what I really wonder...why here in America have we went from a nation that probably had guns in every home in the country but rarely committed heinous acts of violence to a nation where it seems to happen more frequently?

 

 

 

 

 

There are 310 million guns in this Country. 50% of the guns on this Planet 

are in the great old U.S. of A. There's your problem. 

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There are 310 million guns in this Country. 50% of the guns on this Planet 

are in the great old U.S. of A. There's your problem. 

 

 

Interesting point you bring up there as I find that it's too easily overlooked when people start talking about gun control in Europe & the rest of the world.

 

America was liberated & largely settled at gunpoint. My Pops has a trapdoor Springfield he bought for $20 in the 1930's, same gun Custer's troops carried. On the other end of the spectrum, every time gun control legislation comes up the less-scrupulous gunmakers that own the modern NRA get the rabble stirred up and prices go through the roof - they can't keep AR's on the shelf. The history here is important, and this country is so much different than most, good and bad, that comparison is difficult. The idea of an omnipresent police force to rely on is a new one, if practical at all. 

 

Another thing worth noting is the lack of will to enforce exiting gun laws.  Waco, Ruby Ridge; that's what enforcement looks like.  Maybe those folks needed disarmed, probably even, but we don't have the stomach for it and if we're going to talk about lives saved and so on the cost of disarmament needs to be part of your math.

 

Shit I've made my suggestions, let's hear someone else's solution?

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This was Friday.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-uber-driver-shoots-gunman-met-0420-20150419-story.html

 

This was a few weeks ago.

http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/Man-Shot-in-the-Chest-Inside-West-Philly-Barbershop-297176271.html

 

Youtube is full of videos like this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87VOCsN1Vq0

 

For every youtube video like that there are no doubt hundreds of instances that don't get put on youtube.

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 let's hear someone else's solution.

 

You start by recognizing that most gun deaths and gun crimes are caused by repeat offenders who are arrested and released multiple times after serving very little time.

 

Then you recognize that gun free zones give people a false sense of security, because someone who goes nuts and decides to shoot a bunch of people sees a gun free zone as a barrel full of fish. A gun free zone is the least safe place to be.

 

Take care of those two things and see how much effect it has on the problem.

 

I can tell you this, carry permit holders and NRA members are not the problem. Before you go digging up an instance where they were, the percentage is miniscule.

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The group think is the problem. They have a leisure interest and a need to preserve that more than peoples actual safety so they make up lies about feeling safer with guns. 

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The group think is the problem. They have a leisure interest and a need to preserve that more than peoples actual safety so they make up lies about feeling safer with guns. 

 

 

No, it's just a bunch of rednecks with little dicks who want to go get them some cowboy justice.

 

Did I paint that picture with a broad enough brush for you?

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What percent of these 310,000,000 guns are estimated to be involved in gun deaths of any kind? Let's say one gun per death?

 

10%?  5%?  1%?

 

 

I don't see the relevance there. I mean Americans are 20 times

more likely to be killed by a gun than people of any other civilized Nation. 

So what does the percentage of guns used to do all that killing have to do with anything?

 

100% of gun deaths are caused by guns. 

 

This was Friday.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-uber-driver-shoots-gunman-met-0420-20150419-story.html

 

This was a few weeks ago.

http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/Man-Shot-in-the-Chest-Inside-West-Philly-Barbershop-297176271.html

 

Youtube is full of videos like this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87VOCsN1Vq0

 

For every youtube video like that there are no doubt hundreds of instances that don't get put on youtube.

 

It appears to me that you're making an argument over something no one has said.

Who ever said no good comes from guns? 

 

It's like the NRA, you mention the gun PROBLEM and they want to act like you're saying 

do away with all guns. No one in this thread has ever said that. 

 

All you need to know about the NRA and their mentality is what that banner said

"If they can ban one, they can  ban them all." If they acknowledge the problem.

That means they might have to do something. Instead let's point out the good. 

And hope everyone forgets the bad.

 

 

 

 

Shit I've made my suggestions, let's hear someone else's solution?

 

 

Enforce the laws on the books. Title and register guns. Make people take gun training, education

and safety classes and pass test just like when you get a drivers license.  Also tax the fuck out of 

bullets and make them so expensive that  you have to get a second mortgage to buy a box of shells.

Because let's be honest, guns don't kill people, bullets do. I also think each box of bullets should have

serial numbers or codes and when bought they are assigned to said buyer and they are traceable

and responsible for any killing that may happen with them. Unless justified of course.

 

Legalize drugs, at least marijuana and use the man hours, tax money and prison space for

gun offenders. 

 

Hell, I can think of a lot of shit that could be done. That is just for starters. The NRA thinks everything is fine the way 

it is though. No need to do anything. Just keep buying our guns and bullets. It's OK.

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Man, that poster is old as fuck if it's referencing West Germany, lol.

Point still stands and I'd like to see the updated statistics...

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Man, that poster is old as fuck if it's referencing West Germany, lol.

Point still stands and I'd like to see the updated statistics...


I'd like to see updated stats also but the reality of those years and these years is probably not much different. Sir Richard Branson of Virgin wrote an article for Virgin on the Sandy Hook shooting. That's where Old's version of the poster came from. Brady Campaign has a plethora of these things. Here's a newer poster...

Screen%20Shot%202014-06-23%20at%205.16.1

Killed in Chicago by a Canadian that bought a gun from the US. Basically she was a stalking victim.

Multiple things are wrong with that situation. Yet, this "statistic" is still a US gun related issue. NO background check was performed, technically the suspect was a foreigner, Chicago has some of the toughest laws on the books but has some of the highest gun related violence, etc...

This is one of many crimes that would have been prevented by a simple background check. That's not to say that this guy wouldn't have tried to kill her via another method but he set all this up in advance of the killing and the gun was the easiest and most expedient method.

I could rant and rave about the issues in the US but if the government both local and federal do not enforce the laws, nothing we say or do here is anything other than hot air.

Peace and happiness people. WHODEY
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Man, that poster is old as fuck if it's referencing West Germany, lol.

Point still stands and I'd like to see the updated statistics...

 

 

Blame the NRA and gun lobby for not being able to.

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Enforce the laws on the books. Title and register guns. Make people take gun training, education

and safety classes and pass test just like when you get a drivers license.  Also tax the fuck out of 

bullets and make them so expensive that  you have to get a second mortgage to buy a box of shells.

Because let's be honest, guns don't kill people, bullets do. I also think each box of bullets should have

serial numbers or codes and when bought they are assigned to said buyer and they are traceable

and responsible for any killing that may happen with them. Unless justified of course.

 

Point by point:

 

Enforcing existing laws: Yeah, that would be the place to start, and until that happens there's not much cause to add new ones.  Like I said before, we don't (collectively) have the stomach for it. Attempts to do so in high-profile cases have gone very, very badly. No, I'm not saying give up, but there needs to be a real understanding of what that enforcement looks like because it's not going to be pretty.  When these raids etc do go bad it's just going to add to the hysteria - disarming a band of seditious kooks living in a bunker full of illegal firearms is going to turn into "Obama's coming to take my gun!" no matter how ridiculous the claim. IDK what it's going to take to get the general public behind that enforcement but obviously the will to do it is lacking right now. I agree with you but we need to accept that reducing violence and enforcing these laws are not always going to be mutually compatible goals. It's much more likely to lead to more violence, at least in the short term.

 

Registration/education/etc:  This kind of goes back to existing laws because a lot of this stuff is already in place. Unfortunately there are some pretty easy ways around those laws and others are just kind of broken to begin with. I don't think anyone seriously believes a weekend course and an hour or two of range time is going to transform someone that's never fired a gun into a badass capable of handling themselves and their weapon properly in an "active shooter" scenario. Shit, veteran police that have decades of experience still fuck this one up at times. Some tacticool mall ninja is more likely to be almost as big a threat as the shooter.

 

tax the fuck out of  bullets and make them so expensive etc: You're probably not aware of this, but the last time gun control was in the news post-Sandy Hook massacre, ammo disappeared from the shelves because people were afraid of this happening. It's still hard to find certain calibers 2.5 years later.  Before you say "good!" keep in mind that this has created a black market for ammo to go along with the existing one for the guns themselves. The average person might just shrug it off, and a lot of people have gone to black powder rifles for hunting. just as an example. Who do you think is hording all the rest? It's also worth noting that it's fairly simple to reload ammo yourself, which combined with the taxation you're talking about is not going to create the outcome you're looking for.  Beyond that, IMO this makes about as much sense as driving the price of gas to $50 a gallon because you want to eliminate drunk drivers. It's neither effective nor realistic

 

I also think each box of bullets should have serial numbers or codes Forensic testing accomplishes the same thing but this could be a good idea, particularly for certain AP types of ammo. Again though, this effectively creates a black market for reloaded ammo.I can't say for certain that there aren't already chemical markers in propellant etc that enable law enforcement to track batches of ammo. Seems likely but IDK. Not a bad idea.

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tax the fuck out of  bullets and make them so expensive etc: You're probably not aware of this, but the last time gun control was in the news post-Sandy Hook massacre, ammo disappeared from the shelves because people were afraid of this happening. It's still hard to find certain calibers 2.5 years later.  Before you say "good!" keep in mind that this has created a black market for ammo to go along with the existing one for the guns themselves. The average person might just shrug it off, and a lot of people have gone to black powder rifles for hunting. just as an example. Who do you think is hording all the rest? It's also worth noting that it's fairly simple to reload ammo yourself, which combined with the taxation you're talking about is not going to create the outcome you're looking for.  Beyond that, IMO this makes about as much sense as driving the price of gas to $50 a gallon because you want to eliminate drunk drivers. It's neither effective nor realistic

 

 

 

 

I am very aware. And I don't think it's "good". And the money made from taxes could fight the black markets,

people making their own bullets (which should also be against the law). If you make bullets more expensive

you deter them being shot like firecrackers. And you use the money to fund and fight the other gun problems.

Taxing the fuck out of cigarettes has helped decline their usage. If people want to "hoard" them then that

means they're not shooting them. 

 

Try it and then tell and get some results before you tell me how effective and realistic it is.

Because what we're doing now sure as fuck isn't working.

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There isn't one simple answer but it should at the very least with enforcing the laws on the books before creating new ones that are not enforced either.

Note that the age limit on cigarettes is rarely enforced. Go to a cigarette shop and just browse, you will note the same thing. Probably perform a similar setup with online or flea market sales of guns and ammo.

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You really think reloading ammo should be illegal? How about alcohol?

I think you need to reconsider who gets punished by making something more expensive. Your neighborhood crack dealer isn't hurting for cash y'know.

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Also, being a safe, responsible gun owner means having familiarity and a modicum of proficiency that can only be acquired with practice. Ammo is already expensive, taxing the hell out of it would result in gun owners who don't know what the hell they are doing because they can't afford to go to the range with any regularity.

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Also, being a safe, responsible gun owner means having familiarity and a modicum of proficiency that can only be acquired with practice. Ammo is already expensive, taxing the hell out of it would result in gun owners who don't know what the hell they are doing because they can't afford to go to the range with any regularity.

That's a pretty good point...

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