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It's true all, no teams anywhere have ever missed on picks other than the bengals. Because Ogbuihi sucked therefore all bengals picks must suck.

 

Except for the good ones.

 

But any pick sucks, still. 

 

The sparky manifesto. What a dink.

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4 hours ago, CalifBengalfan said:

Harder than it has to be because you think so, or the info you see says so? Unless I missed something and you have some sort of connection to the sports world or are some kind of talent evaluator, the only thing you know is what you get from the internet, just like most of us.

 For you to take your collected judgments from the internet and then keep pushing the negative on the team because they did not take who you think they should have taken because some websites say someone would have been a better pick for the Bengals is ridiculous.

 I can appreciate all views and opinions on the forum, but when you are being negative about the team, about something you or anyone else can`t prove at least until the players actually play and show how they work out with the team, it is just a waste of time. 

Powerful...

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The problem with putting all your trust in Tobin is that his track record isn't especially good. It has hits and misses. Burrow was a no-brainer. Chase over Sewell turned out to be a good choice. Williams is ok, but hasn't really lived up to expectations. Other first rounders have been outright busts. 

 

Coming off the Super Bowl appearance, the team had a chance to take a major step forward with lots of cap space and a young core. We signed 3 proven free agent O-linemen and I fully approve of those moves. We lost Uzomah but did well to get Hurst who I have hopes for. Losing Phillips and Hargreaves is insignificant. 

 

After fixing the O-line, our biggest need going into the draft was in the secondary, specifically at CB. We also needed depth at 3T, a TE3 upgrade, and WR4. Adding a S in case Bates or Bell are gone next year would be a good idea too. It wouldn't hurt to add a LB in case Pratt leaves next offseason as well. 

 

So how did we do at covering our thin spots? We took 2 safeties and basically said Bates was on his way out the door and maybe Bell too. We added a CB to compete with Apple. But we lost 3 CBs and only added 1. We added a DE to 3T project. We drafted a T to G conversion and took a late flyer on an edge rusher. We whiffed on a WR and TE. God help us if Hurst or any of the big 3 WRs get hurt. Last year the Bengals had pretty good luck with injuries. May it continue. But if it doesn't we have some thin spots. 

 

So what would I have done? First I'd give Bates a fair market deal. When a player is young and above average and reaches free agency, the team should reward him appropriately if they can afford it. The Bengals certainly can afford to pay Bates whatever he'd get on the open market, probably something like Justin Simmons is getting. I'd also re-sign Spain after the draft to either start at LG or provide insurance in case Carman can't keep the job this year either. So the team would be able to take a dropping Zion Johnson or Kenyon Green if they were on the board at 31 as a long term upgrade. If they were gone, the team could sign Spain cheap and not use a draft pick on the O-line. That would give the youngsters time to develop.

 

At TE, none in the draft were worthy of a first round pick but a number merited a pick between the 2nd and 5th rounds. Any of them would be better than Wilcox or Schreck or Moss and some would probably pass Sample for the TE2 spot by the end of the year. Since both Hurst and Sample are only signed for 2022, it would be good to have some continuity there. At WR, we'll likely let Boyd go when his deal runs out unless he's willing to take a very team friendly contract. Higgins will be asking for 15 mil+ and when Chase eventually gets a new deal it might be 25 mil+. We're a year away from Higgins being eligible for a new contract and he'll probably want one then. We could stall and tag him in 2024 but then we'd need a new WR2 instead of WR3. This would have been a good year to take a WR with some return ability who could at least spell the big 3 and learn the game. Mike Thomas doesn't have any upside left, he's as good as he'll ever be. Given that we missed on WR in the draft we should see what Emmanuel Sanders is asking for and maybe sign him for depth. 

 

On the D-line we already have a DT/DE tweener in Cam Sample. He was a much better college player than Zach Carter. We have a couple of big bodied backup DTs for run stopping in Tupou and Shelvin. So taking Carter doesn't add much to the roster. He may be a marginally better edge rusher than Khalid Kareem but the same could be said of Gunter or Wyatt. We could have used the 3rd and 4th round picks on say Ruckert and Tariq Woolen. Both have big upsides and could be useful backup players in the short term. 

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On 5/5/2022 at 2:27 PM, membengal said:

Carter's productivity in terms of sacks and TFL largely came inside at 3T. That Florida for some reason used him more at edge is on them. Bengals are clearly using him at IDL. They've literally said as much. So either they've found a cool angle with him or they missed. They've been pretty damn good at DL identification in the middle rounds. We shall see how that works out this time. 

That roational 3tech with Hill is a concern.

I believe the staff particularly if Coach Hobby thinks he's the fit..

 

Im not worried about his weight.

How hard is it to gain 10lbs at Ruby's in a couple months😎

 

Im stilll concerned about the positions depth though.

 

 

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1 hour ago, sparky151 said:

The problem with putting all your trust in Tobin is that his track record isn't especially good. It has hits and misses. Burrow was a no-brainer. Chase over Sewell turned out to be a good choice. Williams is ok, but hasn't really lived up to expectations. Other first rounders have been outright busts. 

 

Coming off the Super Bowl appearance, the team had a chance to take a major step forward with lots of cap space and a young core. We signed 3 proven free agent O-linemen and I fully approve of those moves. We lost Uzomah but did well to get Hurst who I have hopes for. Losing Phillips and Hargreaves is insignificant. 

 

After fixing the O-line, our biggest need going into the draft was in the secondary, specifically at CB. We also needed depth at 3T, a TE3 upgrade, and WR4. Adding a S in case Bates or Bell are gone next year would be a good idea too. It wouldn't hurt to add a LB in case Pratt leaves next offseason as well. 

 

So how did we do at covering our thin spots? We took 2 safeties and basically said Bates was on his way out the door and maybe Bell too. We added a CB to compete with Apple. But we lost 3 CBs and only added 1. We added a DE to 3T project. We drafted a T to G conversion and took a late flyer on an edge rusher. We whiffed on a WR and TE. God help us if Hurst or any of the big 3 WRs get hurt. Last year the Bengals had pretty good luck with injuries. May it continue. But if it doesn't we have some thin spots. 

 

So what would I have done? First I'd give Bates a fair market deal. When a player is young and above average and reaches free agency, the team should reward him appropriately if they can afford it. The Bengals certainly can afford to pay Bates whatever he'd get on the open market, probably something like Justin Simmons is getting. I'd also re-sign Spain after the draft to either start at LG or provide insurance in case Carman can't keep the job this year either. So the team would be able to take a dropping Zion Johnson or Kenyon Green if they were on the board at 31 as a long term upgrade. If they were gone, the team could sign Spain cheap and not use a draft pick on the O-line. That would give the youngsters time to develop.

 

At TE, none in the draft were worthy of a first round pick but a number merited a pick between the 2nd and 5th rounds. Any of them would be better than Wilcox or Schreck or Moss and some would probably pass Sample for the TE2 spot by the end of the year. Since both Hurst and Sample are only signed for 2022, it would be good to have some continuity there. At WR, we'll likely let Boyd go when his deal runs out unless he's willing to take a very team friendly contract. Higgins will be asking for 15 mil+ and when Chase eventually gets a new deal it might be 25 mil+. We're a year away from Higgins being eligible for a new contract and he'll probably want one then. We could stall and tag him in 2024 but then we'd need a new WR2 instead of WR3. This would have been a good year to take a WR with some return ability who could at least spell the big 3 and learn the game. Mike Thomas doesn't have any upside left, he's as good as he'll ever be. Given that we missed on WR in the draft we should see what Emmanuel Sanders is asking for and maybe sign him for depth. 

 

On the D-line we already have a DT/DE tweener in Cam Sample. He was a much better college player than Zach Carter. We have a couple of big bodied backup DTs for run stopping in Tupou and Shelvin. So taking Carter doesn't add much to the roster. He may be a marginally better edge rusher than Khalid Kareem but the same could be said of Gunter or Wyatt. We could have used the 3rd and 4th round picks on say Ruckert and Tariq Woolen. Both have big upsides and could be useful backup players in the short term. 

Thanks you make a lot of good points there without coming across as just bitchin bout the draft and added some relevant material for discussion. And some of them we all know. Sure we would have liked to have picked a TE somewhere and with no receiver drafted agree we need to stay healthy with the big 3 at wr and hopefully someone else will step up. Maybe they have confidence in their plan. But it comes down to we had a pretty good roster last year and didn`t pick for need as much as grade on the players, and maybe they are picking players to fit what they want to do. And I do trust in Duke Tobin as he was the main part of building the Championship team and he is still in charge of building the roster. Every team has players that don`t work out and the Bengals are no different but have to live with the good and the bad. I along with almost everyone else said all year, I couldn`t believe we were winning with the oline we had, but we were. Until we didn`t. But you can`t fix everything, or have, and pay players at most positions at the top of the pay scale. Everyone wants Bates paid but he must want more than the Bengals are willing to pay or guarantee with the other big contracts coming up. 

In closing you make some good points, but I am not going to worry about anything until the roster gets settled closer to the season. They still have time to improve the roster. Would still love to have Ogunjobi back for the right price. 

 

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3 hours ago, Jamie_B said:

Who's to say we haven't offered Bates a fair market deal? The rumors are about the guaranteed money not the full contract itself.

I didn`t say that at all. But the deal is not getting done so either the money is not right or the guaranteed money is not agreed.  I said "Bates must want more than the Bengals are willing to pay or guarantee with the other big contracts coming up" 

 

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2 hours ago, CalifBengalfan said:

I didn`t say that at all. But the deal is not getting done so either the money is not right or the guaranteed money is not agreed.  I said "Bates must want more than the Bengals are willing to pay or guarantee with the other big contracts coming up" 

 


The Honey Badger told the Chiefs he wanted $18M a year, so they didn’t even try to sign him.  He recently signed a three-year contract for 30-some million ($34m?), with $18M guaranteed.  
 

So, maybe the “going rate” for safeties has shifted a bit.  ???

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2 hours ago, CalifBengalfan said:

I didn`t say that at all. But the deal is not getting done so either the money is not right or the guaranteed money is not agreed.  I said "Bates must want more than the Bengals are willing to pay or guarantee with the other big contracts coming up" 

 

 

 

I didn't quote you, that was Sparky's assertion that he would have given Bates a fair contract. 

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4 hours ago, Jamie_B said:

 

 

I didn't quote you, that was Sparky's assertion that he would have given Bates a fair contract. 

 

Yes. Bates is a good player and deserves a fair market wage. He's also never been to the pro bowl. Something like 4 years/65 mil with a 15 mil signing bonus and fully guaranteed year 1 salary of 12.5 mil would be a sweet deal for him and affordable for the team.  He'd have the second highest avg safety salary (behind Jamal Adams) and second most fully guaranteed money (behind Justin Simmons). His cap number would be 16.25 mil each year of the deal or about 3.4 mil more than he currently counts on the franchise tag. Bengals currently have about 15 mil in cap space and extending Bates would have freed up the first round pick. Hill will certainly be cheaper than Bates over the next 4 years and might be better. 

 

Or Bengals could have simply given Bates the transition tag which only gives them the right to match another team's offer. That would have shown him what his market really is. 

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15 hours ago, sparky151 said:

 

Yes. Bates is a good player and deserves a fair market wage. He's also never been to the pro bowl. Something like 4 years/65 mil with a 15 mil signing bonus and fully guaranteed year 1 salary of 12.5 mil would be a sweet deal for him and affordable for the team.  He'd have the second highest avg safety salary (behind Jamal Adams) and second most fully guaranteed money (behind Justin Simmons). His cap number would be 16.25 mil each year of the deal or about 3.4 mil more than he currently counts on the franchise tag. Bengals currently have about 15 mil in cap space and extending Bates would have freed up the first round pick. Hill will certainly be cheaper than Bates over the next 4 years and might be better. 

 

Or Bengals could have simply given Bates the transition tag which only gives them the right to match another team's offer. That would have shown him what his market really is. 

 

 

The transition of course puts you at risk of a team giving you a posin pill

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23 hours ago, Cricket said:


The Honey Badger told the Chiefs he wanted $18M a year, so they didn’t even try to sign him.  He recently signed a three-year contract for 30-some million ($34m?), with $18M guaranteed.  
 

So, maybe the “going rate” for safeties has shifted a bit.  ???

Mathaeu has been an an AllPro player a few times.

 

Hes still very good but his age (30) is a factor on a bigger contract at this point...

 

The good young ones i.e. Bates will be looking for more than he signed for.

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2 hours ago, Jamie_B said:

 

 

The transition of course puts you at risk of a team giving you a posin pill


 I believe that the league has outlawed poison pills…haven’t they?  :shrug: 

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I don't want Bates to leave.

However, if he does, we drafted his replacement

who will be cheaper plus we will get a juicy comp pick to boot.

 

Won't happen but I would be in favor of trading Bell for a draft pick

while he's still under contract and putting that money toward keeping

Jesse around for another couple/few years.

He's only going to get better with a stronger D line applying pressure

and he, Dax and Cam as a strong corer will wreak havoc in the NFL

for a few years to come.

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On 5/6/2022 at 9:07 PM, sparky151 said:

The problem with putting all your trust in Tobin is that his track record isn't especially good. It has hits and misses. Burrow was a no-brainer. Chase over Sewell turned out to be a good choice. Williams is ok, but hasn't really lived up to expectations. Other first rounders have been outright busts. 

 

Coming off the Super Bowl appearance, the team had a chance to take a major step forward with lots of cap space and a young core. We signed 3 proven free agent O-linemen and I fully approve of those moves. We lost Uzomah but did well to get Hurst who I have hopes for. Losing Phillips and Hargreaves is insignificant. 

 

After fixing the O-line, our biggest need going into the draft was in the secondary, specifically at CB. We also needed depth at 3T, a TE3 upgrade, and WR4. Adding a S in case Bates or Bell are gone next year would be a good idea too. It wouldn't hurt to add a LB in case Pratt leaves next offseason as well. 

 

So how did we do at covering our thin spots? We took 2 safeties and basically said Bates was on his way out the door and maybe Bell too. We added a CB to compete with Apple. But we lost 3 CBs and only added 1. We added a DE to 3T project. We drafted a T to G conversion and took a late flyer on an edge rusher. We whiffed on a WR and TE. God help us if Hurst or any of the big 3 WRs get hurt. Last year the Bengals had pretty good luck with injuries. May it continue. But if it doesn't we have some thin spots. 

 

So what would I have done? First I'd give Bates a fair market deal. When a player is young and above average and reaches free agency, the team should reward him appropriately if they can afford it. The Bengals certainly can afford to pay Bates whatever he'd get on the open market, probably something like Justin Simmons is getting. I'd also re-sign Spain after the draft to either start at LG or provide insurance in case Carman can't keep the job this year either. So the team would be able to take a dropping Zion Johnson or Kenyon Green if they were on the board at 31 as a long term upgrade. If they were gone, the team could sign Spain cheap and not use a draft pick on the O-line. That would give the youngsters time to develop.

 

At TE, none in the draft were worthy of a first round pick but a number merited a pick between the 2nd and 5th rounds. Any of them would be better than Wilcox or Schreck or Moss and some would probably pass Sample for the TE2 spot by the end of the year. Since both Hurst and Sample are only signed for 2022, it would be good to have some continuity there. At WR, we'll likely let Boyd go when his deal runs out unless he's willing to take a very team friendly contract. Higgins will be asking for 15 mil+ and when Chase eventually gets a new deal it might be 25 mil+. We're a year away from Higgins being eligible for a new contract and he'll probably want one then. We could stall and tag him in 2024 but then we'd need a new WR2 instead of WR3. This would have been a good year to take a WR with some return ability who could at least spell the big 3 and learn the game. Mike Thomas doesn't have any upside left, he's as good as he'll ever be. Given that we missed on WR in the draft we should see what Emmanuel Sanders is asking for and maybe sign him for depth. 

 

On the D-line we already have a DT/DE tweener in Cam Sample. He was a much better college player than Zach Carter. We have a couple of big bodied backup DTs for run stopping in Tupou and Shelvin. So taking Carter doesn't add much to the roster. He may be a marginally better edge rusher than Khalid Kareem but the same could be said of Gunter or Wyatt. We could have used the 3rd and 4th round picks on say Ruckert and Tariq Woolen. Both have big upsides and could be useful backup players in the short term. 

TLDR.

 

You stomping up and down saying these are bad draft picks is tired.  We hear 'ya. 

 

The reality is no one, including you, really knows if these guys will be good pros.  Right now they are Bengals and we hope for the best.  If they end up sucking then come on back and toot your horn.  I'm no draftnik, but Tobin has run hot and cold over the years at the draft.  Also wonder how much Brown was involved 3, 5, or 10 years ago. 

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On 5/5/2022 at 2:42 PM, sparky151 said:

 

Duh. But back to the question, what is the argument for them over an actual DT or someone who played Power 5 football? 

 

this is a weird argument yall are going back and forth with.

 

each team values things differently, seems the bengals value being a captain, leadership, etc very high. and talking to teammates, coaches, etc they know who was a real captain and who was just good player given the captain title. 

 

while half the league may not care if they were a captain at all, and think their high paid coach will lead anyone.

 

then i keep hearing from bengals circles in interviews talking about love of football, love practice, etc. the eat drink sleep football head types.

 

then move on to unselfishness, willing to play any spot, or only wants to play edge for the fame and glory or wants to play outside not nickel, etc.

 

then system, a DT whose gonna play NT type role vs one who can play inside or outside are going to be ROUNDS apart on different teams charts. so grading guys has to have SOME bias to it, even for just talking heads, ranking a guy the best edge in the draft is that for any scheme? or a certain type? 

 

we havent even got to skill, technique, baggage, competition level, injury history, etc. its fairly easy to assume teams value system is likely all over the place, then scheme alone makes guys jump or drop dozens of spots easy.

 

everything is so subjective. did the best corner play all zone? all man? 50/50? better at one or the other? what do you play?

 

kinda like pointing out the hottest girl in a cheerleader lineup, votes are gonna be all over the place.

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5 hours ago, GoBengals said:

 

this is a weird argument yall are going back and forth with.

 

each team values things differently, seems the bengals value being a captain, leadership, etc very high. and talking to teammates, coaches, etc they know who was a real captain and who was just good player given the captain title. 

 

while half the league may not care if they were a captain at all, and think their high paid coach will lead anyone.

 

then i keep hearing from bengals circles in interviews talking about love of football, love practice, etc. the eat drink sleep football head types.

 

then move on to unselfishness, willing to play any spot, or only wants to play edge for the fame and glory or wants to play outside not nickel, etc.

 

then system, a DT whose gonna play NT type role vs one who can play inside or outside are going to be ROUNDS apart on different teams charts. so grading guys has to have SOME bias to it, even for just talking heads, ranking a guy the best edge in the draft is that for any scheme? or a certain type? 

 

we havent even got to skill, technique, baggage, competition level, injury history, etc. its fairly easy to assume teams value system is likely all over the place, then scheme alone makes guys jump or drop dozens of spots easy.

 

everything is so subjective. did the best corner play all zone? all man? 50/50? better at one or the other? what do you play?

 

kinda like pointing out the hottest girl in a cheerleader lineup, votes are gonna be all over the place.

 

 

Morgan Freeman Reaction GIF by MOODMAN

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https://www.nationalfootballpost.com/2008-2018-nfp-archive/guest-stars/no-more-poison-pill-offer-sheets/  
 

ebruary 14, 2012 - DION CAPUTI

NO MORE POISON PILL OFFER SHEETS

It was six years ago that the Minnesota Vikings—perhaps astutely or perhaps foolishly—formulated a controversial plan in order to acquire all-pro guard Steve Hutchinson, who the Seattle Seahawks had tendered with a transition tag. The method the Vikings concocted in 2006 is now known simply as a "poison pill."

Essentially, the "poison pill" is a component in a contract offer which features stipulations that make it arduous or impossible for the team in possession of a tendered players' rights to match an offer on that player.

http://cdn.cloudfiles.mosso.com/c1910342/media_center/images/rendered/blog/wysiwyg/Wallace-7272.jpgICONThe elimination of the "poison pill" should make it a tad bit easier for the Stealers to bring back Mike Wallace.

For example, Minnesota's offer sheet to Seattle regarding Hutchinson included a clause stipulating that Hutchinson's entire contract would become fully guaranteed if at any point during the life of the contract he was not the highest-paid offensive lineman on the team. This is noteworthy because, at that point, Seahawks left tackle Walter Jones was making more money per season than what the Vikings had included in their offer, meaning Hutchinson's entire seven-year $49 million contract would have been fully guaranteed.

As you can see, it’s a tricky situation that can understandably be viewed as unfair.

However, Mike Florio of ProFootballTalk.com reports Tuesday that the ability for teams to utilize the "poison pill" function when piecing together an offer sheet to a tendered player has been removed from the CBA, citing a source with "intimate" knowledge of the new CBA.

Although we already know teams universally do not condone the inclusion of the poison pill—considering it has not truly been used since the same offseason it was created—fans and league pundits are likely to be relieved that the possibility of it resurfacing is no longer evident.

As it relates to this offseason, teams that opt to tender a restricted free agent under the new CBA can only set a maximum offer of a first-round tender to players; a small price to pay for available RFA's like Houston running back Arian Foster or Pittsburgh wide receiver Mike Wallace.

Luckily enough, neither organization will face the added handicap that a poison pill would almost surely result in.

 

 

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From Wikipedia

 

The specific language in the CBA states:

"No Offer Sheet may contain a Principal Term that would create rights or obligations for the Old Club that differ in any way (including but not limited to the amount of compensation that would be paid, the circumstances in which compensation would be guaranteed, or the circumstances in which other contractual rights would or would not vest) from the rights or obligations that such Principal Term would create for the Club extending the Offer Sheet (i.e., no 'poison pills')."

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On 5/7/2022 at 6:53 PM, sparky151 said:

 

Yes. Bates is a good player and deserves a fair market wage. He's also never been to the pro bowl. Something like 4 years/65 mil with a 15 mil signing bonus and fully guaranteed year 1 salary of 12.5 mil would be a sweet deal for him and affordable for the team.  He'd have the second highest avg safety salary (behind Jamal Adams) and second most fully guaranteed money (behind Justin Simmons). His cap number would be 16.25 mil each year of the deal or about 3.4 mil more than he currently counts on the franchise tag. Bengals currently have about 15 mil in cap space and extending Bates would have freed up the first round pick. Hill will certainly be cheaper than Bates over the next 4 years and might be better. 

 

Or Bengals could have simply given Bates the transition tag which only gives them the right to match another team's offer. That would have shown him what his market really is. 

I think the recent elevation is WR salaries will unintentionally squeeze out other positions. Now we have very high salaries for QB, WR and edge rusher followed by Offensive tackles and cornerbacks. I think most teams would value safeties below these groups so it will now be tough to get the $20m per year safety. 

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43 minutes ago, I_C_Deadpeople said:

I think the recent elevation is WR salaries will unintentionally squeeze out other positions. Now we have very high salaries for QB, WR and edge rusher followed by Offensive tackles and cornerbacks. I think most teams would value safeties below these groups so it will now be tough to get the $20m per year safety. 

 

This.  I bet a team shorter on talent will be willing to pay top dollar for Bates, but I don't think the Bengals can afford to do so.  They have some big dollar guys to sign in a year or two.  Then again, maybe Bates isn't asking for top dollar and this is just about guaranteed money.  Either way, I hope they get him signed, but it isn't the end of the world if they don't.

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1 hour ago, I_C_Deadpeople said:

I think the recent elevation is WR salaries will unintentionally squeeze out other positions. Now we have very high salaries for QB, WR and edge rusher followed by Offensive tackles and cornerbacks. I think most teams would value safeties below these groups so it will now be tough to get the $20m per year safety. 

Words of wisdom....

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