Marvin's horrible decision

[Khatmandude]

[quote name='scharm' timestamp='1349899059' post='1168644']
Horrible decision. Nugent would have had to make a kick. Then they would have to defend a KO. Then defend Miami in trying to prevent further score, field position, and time. Then field a punt. Then drive for a FG. Then make another FG.

Vs. Convert a 4th. Score TD.


Failure to convert a 4th was the same as failure to make the first FG (Both the next play).

It was non conventional and it failed miserably as the path chosen did not even execute the first step.
[/quote]

I don't know....the decision to kick the FG instead of going for it on 4th and 5 is alot less of a "horrible decision" than it is to kick an extra point down 17-12 in the 4th qtr on a day where your offense wasn't moving the ball well and was being harassed by a tough Miami front 7.

At first I tried to rationalize kicking the XP but it just doesn't make the best sense to do in that situation. Marvin was wrong....whether he or anyone else wants to admit it.....he was wrong. Plain and simple.

[Lewdog]

[quote name='Abu-Zayd' timestamp='1349895688' post='1168633']
You go for 2 when you're mired in a defensive struggle, and you finally score your first TD in the 4th Quarter. If it were 35-31, it would have been different.

I would prefer to go for it on 4th and 5, but it was not a clearly wrong decision. If the FG was good, Dalton would have only needed to get into FG range and it is plausible he is not as pressured and it would have worked out.

This whole episode is yet another reminder that our defensive coach does not make the best game manager.
[/quote]

Everyone seems to forget that after the missed FG there were 4 more possessions in the game. There was plenty of time left for the Bengals, who would have been down 3 points, to get the ball back and score a TD to win or kicked a FG to tie and send it to overtime. If it would have gone to overtime I would have been more confident than trying 4th down plays, or going for 2-point conversions.

[Abu-Zayd]

That funny feeling, sort of like heartburn but really in the gut... That feeling that becomes noticeable when expressing hope for the Bengals for the coming season... Especially if talking about a possible Super Bowl... That feeling is rooted in knowing that the management of games is not where it should be and knowing that there is probably nothing that will be done to address it and knowing that we are just hoping the weakness just goes away somehow. Losing games, the RB situation, LB situation, and a couple of other things aggravate the feeling.

Oh well. Lets look forward. That could have been another opportunity for growth and improvement. Sure hope so. At least the defense was adequate. Little pressure from the Dline this week.

[Lewdog]

[quote name='Abu-Zayd' timestamp='1349914744' post='1168755']
That funny feeling, sort of like heartburn but really in the gut... That feeling that becomes noticeable when expressing hope for the Bengals for the coming season... Especially if talking about a possible Super Bowl... That feeling is rooted in knowing that the management of games is not where it should be and knowing that there is probably nothing that will be done to address it and knowing that we are just hoping the weakness just goes away somehow. Losing games, the RB situation, LB situation, and a couple of other things aggravate the feeling.
[/quote]

Don't feel bad, many of the experts said the Bengals had a great offseason addressing pretty much all their weaknesses. A lot of these same experts said that as long as Shaub doesn't get hurt, the Texans are Super Bowl contenders. Anything can happen, and don't single yourself, or any other Bengal fan out for expecting more from this team.

[T-Dub]

It's amazing to me how much more traffic this site gets when the team loses.

[sparky151]

[quote name='Abu-Zayd' timestamp='1349914744' post='1168755']
That funny feeling, sort of like heartburn but really in the gut... That feeling that becomes noticeable when expressing hope for the Bengals for the coming season... Especially if talking about a possible Super Bowl... That feeling is rooted in knowing that the management of games is not where it should be and knowing that there is probably nothing that will be done to address it and knowing that we are just hoping the weakness just goes away somehow. Losing games, the RB situation, LB situation, and a couple of other things aggravate the feeling.

Oh well. Lets look forward. That could have been another opportunity for growth and improvement. Sure hope so. At least the defense was adequate. Little pressure from the Dline this week.
[/quote]

Yeah, I'm kind of tired of bad in-game decisions. I think the offensive and defensive schemes are solid and the playcalling on both sides of the ball is ok, though Gruden had a poor game this week. It's the things a head coach decides where we have a disadvantage. Marvin has his strengths. He's a good motivator and pretty good judge of talent. He's not a good tactician or strategist at all however. We should do what Indy did and hire someone like Jim Tressel to advise on decisionmaking during the game.

[Lewdog]

I'm pretty sure that Tressel was just a consultant for replays.

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='Lewdog' timestamp='1349939805' post='1168791']
I'm pretty sure that Tressel was just a consultant for replays.
[/quote]

yep.

[Squirrlnutz]

I find it funny that some people are so convinced there is a "right" choice in both the 2 pt conversion and the FG.

Choices are only correct when a team wins. Short of that all 100, 200, 600 however many choices a coach made that week or that game can be considered incorrect, why single out these?

[|kennethmw|]

[quote name='Squirrlnutz' timestamp='1349960121' post='1168812']
I find it funny that some people are so convinced there is a "right" choice in both the 2 pt conversion and the FG.

Choices are only correct when a team wins. Short of that all 100, 200, 600 however many choices a coach made that week or that game can be considered incorrect, why single out these?
[/quote]

Because these guys are the best decision makers in the world............in hindsight!

[scharm]

[quote name='Squirrlnutz' timestamp='1349960121' post='1168812']
I find it funny that some people are so convinced there is a "right" choice in both the 2 pt conversion and the FG.

Choices are only correct when a team wins. Short of that all 100, 200, 600 however many choices a coach made that week or that game can be considered incorrect, why single out these?
[/quote]

Because if you got an honest opinion from most fans before the eventual failed 3rd down play and asked what should happen if they fail to convert. Most would have said take a shot on 4th down not try to kick 2 FGs. Just like most knew right at the time that 2 point converision would be a good idea.

It was a non conventional path in both passing the 2 points and 4th down attempt and as you stated were proven to be incorrect as evidenced by the loss.

I'd be more than happy to join Marvin's staff to gain insight on the 100, 200, 600 decision he makes within the week. Unfortunately I'm not and the only access I have is the two horrible calls he made that didn't help produce victory and probably made it more difficult for his team to achieve victory.


I think you are confused. I can't speak for everyone but I don't think they are convinced the alternatives would have 100% guaranteed a win. However, those are easy paths to be selected and understood and then we witnessed the path that was chosen fail miserably.

When you decide to pass a 4th down in favor going for 2 FGs. Then miss the first. That's a huge fuck up. Sorry. Sure Marvin didn't kick it but he did elect to pass a 4th down attempt and now he is in the same situation as if they failed going for it. That's a classic case of horrible call gone wrong.

[bubba]

[quote name='scharm' timestamp='1349964145' post='1168815']


Because if you got an honest opinion from most fans before the eventual failed 3rd down play and asked what should happen if they fail to convert. Most would have said take a shot on 4th down not try to kick 2 FGs. Just like most knew right at the time that 2 point converision would be a good idea.

It was a non conventional path in both passing the 2 points and 4th down attempt and as you stated were proven to be incorrect as evidenced by the loss.

I'd be more than happy to join Marvin's staff to gain insight on the 100, 200, 600 decision he makes within the week. Unfortunately I'm not and the only access I have is the two horrible calls he made that didn't help produce victory and probably made it more difficult for his team to achieve victory.


I think you are confused. I can't speak for everyone but I don't think they are convinced the alternatives would have 100% guaranteed a win. However, those are easy paths to be selected and understood and then we witnessed the path that was chosen fail miserably.

When you decide to pass a 4th down in favor going for 2 FGs. Then miss the first. That's a huge fuck up. Sorry. Sure Marvin didn't kick it but he did elect to pass a 4th down attempt and now he is in the same situation as if they failed going for it. That's a classic case of horrible call gone wrong.
[/quote]
Very well said !

[gatorclaws]

[quote name='scharm' timestamp='1349964145' post='1168815']

It was a non conventional path in both passing the 2 points and 4th down attempt and as you stated were proven to be incorrect as evidenced by the loss.

[/quote]

If they went for 2 and also went for the 4th down attempt and lost, would you be saying those choices were proven incorrect? It's possible the choice had no effect on the outcome of the game so you can't use the outcome of the game as "proof". Hell.... I guess Andy shouldn't have thrown a TD to AJ. It was proven incorrect as evidenced by the loss. If anything, Marvin was proven correct since we got the ball back with enough time for another FG.

I'm amazed this thread is still going on. I would have gone for it on 4th but it's a close call. Disagreeing with a call doesn't make it horrible.

[Khatmandude]

[quote name='T-Dub' timestamp='1349917409' post='1168767']
It's amazing to me how much more traffic this site gets when the team loses.
[/quote]

If it's amazing to you then you're not very smart. It's human nature to be "content" when the Bengals win and upset when they lose. When a loss is experienced, most fans (fans is short for fanatic in case that would also be an amazing revelation to you) want to blow off some steam....a message board is the "perfect" place. Sure, it can be aggrevating to hear nothing but complaining from a few but in general, I think the board discusses topics rationally.

[quote name='Squirrlnutz' timestamp='1349960121' post='1168812']
I find it funny that some people are so convinced there is a "right" choice in both the 2 pt conversion and the FG.

Choices are only correct when a team wins. Short of that all 100, 200, 600 however many choices a coach made that week or that game can be considered incorrect, why single out these?
[/quote]

That's the thing....there is a "right" choice in regards to the XP. The "right" choice is determined by looking at situations and when it is the right thing to go for 2 or kick the XP. That chart states that down 17-12 in the 4th qtr....the RIGHT choice is going for 2. Marvin made a horrible decision, as he has done numerous times it the past. I still like Marvin...but that doesn't mean I can't second guess him as a fan...especially when the evidence shows it makes sense to question his XP decision.

I'm not terribly upset at the 4th down FG attempt....I wish they would have called a better 3rd down play and gone for it on 4th but my job's not on the line. I see the logic behind it. But the XP instead of going for 2 I can't get behind. Neither can the "chart" that coaches came up with that Marvin neglected to follow.

[Squirrlnutz]

[quote name='scharm' timestamp='1349964145' post='1168815']
Because if you got an honest opinion from most fans before the eventual failed 3rd down play and asked what should happen if they fail to convert. Most would have said take a shot on 4th down not try to kick 2 FGs. Just like most knew right at the time that 2 point converision would be a good idea.

It was a non conventional path in both passing the 2 points and 4th down attempt and as you stated were proven to be incorrect as evidenced by the loss.

I'd be more than happy to join Marvin's staff to gain insight on the 100, 200, 600 decision he makes within the week. Unfortunately I'm not and the only access I have is the two horrible calls he made that didn't help produce victory and probably made it more difficult for his team to achieve victory.


I think you are confused. I can't speak for everyone but I don't think they are convinced the alternatives would have 100% guaranteed a win. However, those are easy paths to be selected and understood and then we witnessed the path that was chosen fail miserably.

When you decide to pass a 4th down in favor going for 2 FGs. [b]Then miss the first. That's a huge fuck up[/b]. Sorry. Sure Marvin didn't kick it but he did elect to pass a 4th down attempt and now he is in the same situation as if they failed going for it. That's a classic case of horrible call gone wrong.
[/quote]

Isn't your conclusion, as you've written it, based upon the results and not solely on the decision? I'm looking at it this way, in that moment in time given the data set ML had; that is the 4 games we've played and the 3 qtrs played that afternoon, what is a more likely outcome:

A. our kicker who is perfect on the season and perfect through 14 games last year makes a 41 yarder with no wind to bring the game within 1 point
B. our struggling offense having its worst outing of the year and is at the bottom of the league in coverting 3rd downs converts 4th and 5.

I think when you ignore all other factors A is a more likely scenario and therefore the correct call. Now before you cut my head off, you can't ignore all the other factors and I agreed in principle with you that he should have went for it...but I agree because I enjoy when coaches gamble and go for it...not because there exists a "correct decision" which people have been ledge jumping over.

Its only the wrong decision because we lost. Since there exists a scenario in which we bring the game within 1 because of a made FG, get the ball back (like we did) and could have kicked a FG to win, IMO its stupid to argue endlessly that it was the "wrong" decision because it could have worked out.

Punting in that situation is the wrong call. Kneeling on the ball in that situation is the wrong call. Kicking the FG is a conservative gamble that, based upon the available data was the most reliable way to put points on the board in that situation, which didn't work out. I don't like it either but I still think its foolish to argue that there is a concrete correct way to handle that situation.

[Squirrlnutz]

[quote name='IKOTA' timestamp='1349971665' post='1168834']
If it's amazing to you then you're not very smart. It's human nature to be "content" when the Bengals win and upset when they lose. When a loss is experienced, most fans (fans is short for fanatic in case that would also be an amazing revelation to you) want to blow off some steam....a message board is the "perfect" place. Sure, it can be aggrevating to hear nothing but complaining from a few but in general, I think the board discusses topics rationally.



That's the thing....there is a "right" choice in regards to the XP. The "right" choice is determined by looking at situations and when it is the right thing to go for 2 or kick the XP. [b]That chart states[/b] that down 17-12 in the 4th qtr....the RIGHT choice is going for 2. Marvin made a horrible decision, as he has done numerous times it the past. I still like Marvin...but that doesn't mean I can't second guess him as a fan...especially when the evidence shows it makes sense to question his XP decision.

I'm not terribly upset at the 4th down FG attempt....I wish they would have called a better 3rd down play and gone for it on 4th but my job's not on the line. I see the logic behind it. But the XP instead of going for 2 I can't get behind. Neither can the "chart" that coaches came up with that Marvin neglected to follow.
[/quote]

I didn't realize someone figured out the answers at one point, I mean if thats the case why are they even bothering to play the game with anything other than a pencil and paper and some dice? Where on that chart is an onsides kick to start the second half of the superbowl?

As in my previous post I'm not defending the decision, I too would have gone for the conversion, just disagreeing that there is a "correct" answer with 14 minutes to go in the 4th qtr. I'm not happy with the call, mostly just more unhappy that this place really only seems to come alive when shit happens negatively than when good things are happening.

[fredtoast]

[quote name='scharm' timestamp='1349964145' post='1168815']
Because if you got an honest opinion from most fans before the eventual failed 3rd down play and asked what should happen if they fail to convert. Most would have said take a shot on 4th down not try to kick 2 FGs. Just like most knew right at the time that 2 point converision would be a good idea..
[/quote]

Actually from what i have seen on this message board and others most people think Marvin made the right choice to kick the FG.

And very few people would say go for two less than a mminute into the fourth quarter.

I guess I could do a poll, but it is really starting to be old news, so I don't think I will bother. But the announcers for the game did not say Marvin made a bad choice either, and the commentators I have seen on TV since also are not ripping Marvin for making a bad choice.

[fredtoast]

[quote name='IKOTA' timestamp='1349971665' post='1168834'] That chart states that down 17-12 in the 4th qtr....the RIGHT choice is going for 2. .
[/quote]

I doubt that the chart says to do it less than one minute into the fourth quarter.

[Squirrlnutz]

[quote name='fredtoast' timestamp='1349972589' post='1168841']
Actually from what i have seen on this message board and others most people think Marvin made the right choice to kick the FG.

And very few people would say go for two less than a mminute into the fourth quarter.

I guess I could do a poll, but it is really starting to be old news, so I don't think I will bother. But the announcers for the game did not say Marvin made a bad choice either, and the commentators I have seen on TV since also are not ripping Marvin for making a bad choice.
[/quote]

To be fair, I've since seen multiple people decry the decision in other random articles and blurbs (mostly fantasy related).

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Squirrlnutz' timestamp='1349972119' post='1168836']
I didn't realize someone figured out the answers at one point, I mean if thats the case why are they even bothering to play the game with anything other than a pencil and paper and some dice? Where on that chart is an onsides kick to start the second half of the superbowl?

As in my previous post I'm not defending the decision, I too would have gone for the conversion, just disagreeing that there is a "correct" answer with 14 minutes to go in the 4th qtr. [color=#ff0000]I'm not happy with the call, mostly just more unhappy that this place really only seems to come alive when shit happens negatively than when good things are happening.[/color]
[/quote]

When you lose to a team you should beat that is to be expected.

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1349973124' post='1168844']
When you lose to a team you should beat that is to be expected.
[/quote]

I dunno about that. It may be typical, but I wouldn't say its "right" that certain posters only come around when the team loses.

[Khatmandude]

[quote name='Bengals1181' timestamp='1349973400' post='1168847']
I dunno about that. It may be typical, but I wouldn't say its "right" that certain posters only come around when the team loses.
[/quote]

I guess that could apply to me...but I come around when I have time and am not a negative person by any means.

[quote name='fredtoast' timestamp='1349972713' post='1168842']
I doubt that the chart says to do it less than one minute into the fourth quarter.
[/quote]

It sure does. Go look at the link Amish posted. It also makes sense to do so. Logically.

[quote name='Squirrlnutz' timestamp='1349972119' post='1168836']
I didn't realize someone figured out the answers at one point, I mean if thats the case why are they even bothering to play the game with anything other than a pencil and paper and some dice? Where on that chart is an onsides kick to start the second half of the superbowl?

As in my previous post I'm not defending the decision, I too would have gone for the conversion, just disagreeing that there is a "correct" answer with 14 minutes to go in the 4th qtr. I'm not happy with the call, mostly just more unhappy that this place really only seems to come alive when shit happens negatively than when good things are happening.
[/quote]

You're smarter than that man. Look at your first paragraph again and tell me you don't feel a little foolish for typing that out in response to my post. Do you think they have a chart for such things if they didn't feel the chart was a very good guide to what action should be taken for particular situations in games. From what I know...pretty much every coach uses it as teh situations would be too complex to map out in one's head at the time the decision is needed. You only get 3 time outs and that may not even be long enough to determine the best course of action......that's where the chart comes in. It's already determined what is the "right" decision to be made in various situations. The situation on Sunday called for a 2 pt conversion.....which would have made it the "right" decision.....according to the chart. Not anyone on Go-Bengals.com or Senator Arlen Spector. But according to the chart devised by football minds that every coach has access to.

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='IKOTA' timestamp='1349974559' post='1168854']
I guess that could apply to me...but I come around when I have time and am not a negative person by any means.

[/quote]

I'm not gonna get into naming names, but I wouldn't put you anywhere near that category.

[Khatmandude]

[quote name='Bengals1181' timestamp='1349974721' post='1168855']
I'm not gonna get into naming names, but I wouldn't put you anywhere near that category.
[/quote]

[Khatmandude]

[quote name='Bengals1181' timestamp='1349974721' post='1168855']
I'm not gonna get into naming names, but I wouldn't put you anywhere near that category.
[/quote]

Here, I'll do the namecalling for you. First and foremost there's Haitinlife88 or some shit. What a douchebag. Coy Bacon is nothing but negative and Lawman, well...let's just leave Lawman out of this. Oh....and sneaky. He's also a bagger.

You're welcome.