bengalbutch Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 [quote name='Lewdog' timestamp='1349745343' post='1168154'] Maybe because it is more likely to get to the 25 yard line and let your kicker that hadn't missed all season put 3 on the board, than count on your offense that has not been playing well all day to drive 80 yards for a TD with time running out. [/quote] What ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bengals1181 Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 [quote name='bengalbutch' timestamp='1349745214' post='1168152'] Of course from Marvin quotes today he will never change and same thing will happen next time. So no sense discussing it further [/quote] This isn't really directed towards you, but I think part of it is people believing what they want to believe. The Bengals lead the league in 4th down attempts this season. The two notable times they haven't gone for it on fourth down (here and in the Baltimore game), Marvin gets jumped on and criticized as "same old conservative Marvin." People can't have it both ways. He can't lead the league in 4th down attempts and then be called too conservative. Like I've said elsewhere, you can argue either way on the call. 4th and 5 against a good D is no easy task, especially when you can't run the ball, and a 41yder should have been easy for Nugent. Also, the Bengals D was playing very well and its easy to trust that they'd get a stop, which they did. The call looks worse because Nugent missed the kick, but you can't flat out say it was a horrible decision. You can say you would have done differently, but if Nugent makes the kick the Bengals are likely driving for a game winning FG on the last drive rather than trying to drive for a game winning touchdown. Maybe that was their best chance to get a TD. Maybe, considering the offense was struggling so much, 2 FG's to win the game was more likely than getting a TD against a defense that had been shutting you down for much of the game. Both sides of the decision have merit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lewdog Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 [quote name='bengalbutch' timestamp='1349745637' post='1168155'] What ??? [/quote] In your last post you said: [quote]what makes you think they put 2 drives together to get in FG range. The right call is to go for the first down and TD & win the game.[/quote] What makes you think that what you said, is easier than kicking the two FGs. That doesn't make any sense. You do realize that right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bengals1181 Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 [quote name='bengalbutch' timestamp='1349745214' post='1168152'] Finally the offense gets a decent drive and we try the field goal instead of going for the win. It the offense is having a bad day. [b]What makes you think they put 2 drives together to get in FG range.[/b] [/quote] fwiw the Bengals had the ball 4 times in the 4th Qtr. 3 times they were in Miami territory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|kennethmw| Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 [quote name='scharm' timestamp='1349727716' post='1168077'] Nah. That's more of a reason to go for it. The defense did get them the ball despite the missed FG. You go for it and then trust your defense to get the ball back if it doesn't work. The FG didn't work and that's almost identical situation if a converision didn't work. What you stated above doesn't make sense because you are asking the unit that "couldn't score yesterday" to mount an additional scoring drive no matter if the FG goes in or not. There's no defense for a decision like that. It was horrible. Anybody can justify anything with the speed of the game and 60 some plays during the course of 60 minutes. When there was a chance to go win a game. They put it on Nugent's foot to narrow the margin to 1 point. WTF? I would have rather taken my chances with Andy Dalton on 4th vs. Nugent making a FG then hoping several things work in their favor so they could get another FG attempt. [/quote] Scharm, we all understand you have your opinion. Forgive us for having a different one than you, for I am well aware that I must either accept your opinion or consign myself to reading you post it over and over and over and over and over and over AGAIN. Ok, maybe this will stop it: FUCKING MARVIN, YOU BITCH, LEARN TO COACH JUST THE WAY SCHARM WANTS YOU TO, YOU NON COACHING COACH PERSON!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cricket Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 [quote name='sneaky' timestamp='1349641644' post='1167623'] Lewis fucked up. With 3:00 left he should have went for it on 4th and 5. Even if they couldn't convert, Miami wouldve had the ball on their 30. [/quote] When it was 3rd and 5 they should have planned on taking two downs to get the first. With the Dolphins considering 3rd-and-5 being a passing down, it would have been a good time to run a draw (and that's what I was calling for)...and if you don't get the first down, it should certainly be less than five to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmishBengalFan Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 [quote name='AmishBengalFan' timestamp='1349661254' post='1167824'] Linky: [url="http://www.footballcommentary.com/twoptchart.htm"]http://www.footballc.../twoptchart.htm[/url] According to the Go-For-Two chart on this page, after scoring a TD to trim your deficit to 4 points (find "-4" in the first column) with 14:15 left in the game (call it 15:00) you should attempt the 2-point conversion if your probability of making it exceeds 61% (0.61). Most NFL teams make their 2-point conversions approximately 40% of the time. Kicking the XP at that point in the game was, mathematically, the correct call.... by a very large margin. [/quote] Gang, I have to retract my last post (quoted above). The score after the TD but before the conversion was 17-12. That's a 5 point deficit not 4. The chart for -5 with 15:00 to play is 0.25.... which is significantly LESS than the NFL average of 40%. Lewis should have gone for two. His decision to kick was incorrect... and by nearly the same margin as above. My bad. Whomever was arguing FOR going for two, and AGAINST Marvin's decision - you're right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lewdog Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 [quote name='AmishBengalFan' timestamp='1349752247' post='1168203'] Gang, I have to retract my last post (quoted above). The score after the TD but before the conversion was 17-12. That's a 5 point deficit not 4. The chart for -5 with 15:00 to play is 0.25.... which is significantly LESS than the NFL average of 40%. Lewis should have gone for two. His decision to kick was incorrect... and by nearly the same margin as above. My bad. Whomever was arguing FOR going for two, and AGAINST Marvin's decision - you're right. [/quote] Come on, do you live your life by a chart? I used to be a pretty good Black Jack player back in the day. If anyone knows anything about Black Jack there is a chart you follow for strategies. Well when I played best I would follow those strategies, except when I watched the cards for a certain length of time, I would get gut instincts to do differently. This is one of those times when I think Marvin was uncomfortable risking a 2-point conversion, losing the points and taking a chance at crushing his teams momentum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Le Tigre Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 [quote name='Bengals1181' timestamp='1349746139' post='1168157'] This isn't really directed towards you, but I think part of it is people believing what they want to believe. The Bengals lead the league in 4th down attempts this season. The two notable times they haven't gone for it on fourth down (here and in the Baltimore game), Marvin gets jumped on and criticized as "same old conservative Marvin." People can't have it both ways. He can't lead the league in 4th down attempts and then be called too conservative. Like I've said elsewhere, you can argue either way on the call. 4th and 5 against a good D is no easy task, especially when you can't run the ball, and a 41yder should have been easy for Nugent. Also, the Bengals D was playing very well and its easy to trust that they'd get a stop, which they did. The call looks worse because Nugent missed the kick, but you can't flat out say it was a horrible decision. You can say you would have done differently, but if Nugent makes the kick the Bengals are likely driving for a game winning FG on the last drive rather than trying to drive for a game winning touchdown. Maybe that was their best chance to get a TD. Maybe, considering the offense was struggling so much, 2 FG's to win the game was more likely than getting a TD against a defense that had been shutting you down for much of the game. Both sides of the decision have merit. [/quote] This is logic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bengals1181 Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 Bengals had 12 drives. 4 times they made it inside the Dolphins 30, only twice they made it into the Redzone. You can argue either way. Yes it may have been their best chance to get a TD, but if the defense holds, which it did, you only need 6 points, which 2 FG's get you. Maybe they get a TD on that drive, maybe they don't. If you trust your defense, it makes sense to take the points. I honestly don't think either answer is the wrong one. The only thing wrong in the whole thing is that Nugent missed a kick he should have made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|SF2| Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 [quote name='fredtoast' timestamp='1349729161' post='1168081'] Then would it have been the correct call in the second quarter also? That seems to be your logic. If not then when exactly in the game does it become the correct choice? [/quote] I think you do it when you are starting to run out of clock. Missing it in the second quarter might kill a little momentum, not that we had much on offense during that game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scharm Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 [quote name='kennethmw' timestamp='1349746578' post='1168163'] Scharm, we all understand you have your opinion. Forgive us for having a different one than you, for I am well aware that I must either accept your opinion or consign myself to reading you post it over and over and over and over and over and over AGAIN. Ok, maybe this will stop it: FUCKING MARVIN, YOU BITCH, LEARN TO COACH JUST THE WAY SCHARM WANTS YOU TO, YOU NON COACHING COACH PERSON!! [/quote] Let me get this straight. Marvin makes a dumb ass coaching decision and it's my fault that you insist on defending it? OK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scharm Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 [quote name='Bengals1181' timestamp='1349786221' post='1168237'] Bengals had 12 drives. 4 times they made it inside the Dolphins 30, only twice they made it into the Redzone. You can argue either way. Yes it may have been their best chance to get a TD, but if the defense holds, which it did, you only need 6 points, which 2 FG's get you. Maybe they get a TD on that drive, maybe they don't. If you trust your defense, it makes sense to take the points. I honestly don't think either answer is the wrong one. The only thing wrong in the whole thing is that Nugent missed a kick he should have made. [/quote] You can make the trust your defense arguement for going for it on 4th as well. Bottomline the path Marvin chose added more steps and put more blind faith into the senarios that needed to happen. Since when are Andy Dalton and his skill core so untrustworthy that we got to go to the path Marvin chose? Horrible call. Sure Marvin's way could have worked but it's crazy to think that's was the better choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluhartz Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 [quote name='Le Tigre' timestamp='1349785747' post='1168235'] This is logic. [/quote] yea... and there is no room for that shit on this board... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 [quote name='sneaky' timestamp='1349641644' post='1167623'] Lewis fucked up. With 3:00 left he should have went for it on 4th and 5. Even if they couldn't convert, Miami wouldve had the ball on their 30. [/quote] We were 2 of 14 on 3rd down, and you wanted to go for it on 4th? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cincity Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 Can we just let this loss go, it's over, it wasn't just the marvin decision that lost the game as I was saying earlier in the thread, it was the offense's inability to run the ball, or convert on 3rd down, it was the 3 turnovers, it was the missed field goals also.. It wasn't just his calls. It's Browns week!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scharm Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 [quote name='Jason' timestamp='1349792854' post='1168264'] We were 2 of 14 on 3rd down, and you wanted to go for it on 4th? [/quote] ?????????? Uh, they still would have needed to get a drive going to score winning points. Call me crazy, but I am assuming that would require converting a 3rd or 4th down. My answer is YES. Hey, they only scored 13 points up to that point too! Should they just quit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bubba Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 [quote name='Jason' timestamp='1349792854' post='1168264'] We were 2 of 14 on 3rd down, and you wanted to go for it on 4th? [/quote] Hell yes I wanted to go for it. Figured it was best chance to win the game. Turned out I was correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bubba Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 And stop with the Marvin goes for it more than most so he's not conservative. It's easy to go for it in the 1st quarter at the 35 when it's borderline too long of a field goal. When the game is close or on the line. He always plays it safe. I'd prefer an aggressive. Go all out for the win coach. Like I said earlier. Remember when he wanted to play for the tie against Browns. Palmer talked him into going for it ?? Who plays for a tie ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fredtoast Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 [quote name='bubba' timestamp='1349795232' post='1168272'] Hell yes I wanted to go for it. Figured it was best chance to win the game. Turned out I was correct. [/quote] No you were not correct. How can you say that since we have no idea what would have happened if they went for it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fredtoast Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 [quote name='scharm' timestamp='1349788606' post='1168244'] You can make the trust your defense arguement for going for it on 4th as well. Bottomline the path Marvin chose added more steps and put more blind faith into the senarios that needed to happen. Since when are Andy Dalton and his skill core so untrustworthy that we got to go to the path Marvin chose? Horrible call. Sure Marvin's way could have worked but it's crazy to think that's was the better choice. [/quote] The point you and most other people are missing is that we get zero points for converting on fourth down. we still have to punch the ball into the endzone in order to win with your plan. [b] It is MUCH easier to move the ball between the twenties to get into FG range than it is to score a td once we are in the red zone.[/b] A small portion of the fans agree with you. the experts calling the game did not freak out over "[b]THE WORST CALL EVER!!!"[/b] You can blow your own horn all you want, but it is obviously not as clear as you make it out to be. Grow the fuck up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bubba Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 [quote name='fredtoast' timestamp='1349795821' post='1168275'] No you were not correct. How can you say that since we have no idea what would have happened if they went for it? [/quote] I know the alternative decision didn't work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fredtoast Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 [quote name='bubba' timestamp='1349797060' post='1168280'] I know the alternative decision didn't work. [/quote] So? The lack of understanding of even the simplest elements of logic among adults today is staggering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldschooler Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 Bengals should have won. Plain and simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fredtoast Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 [quote name='bubba' timestamp='1349795777' post='1168273'] And stop with the Marvin goes for it more than most so he's not conservative. It's easy to go for it in the 1st quarter at the 35 when it's borderline too long of a field goal. [/quote] If it is so easy then why don't all coaches do it? Marvin goes for it on fourth down more than most other coaches. That means he is not as conservative as other coaches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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