Arkansas Bengal Posted May 23, 2014 Report Share Posted May 23, 2014 Are the Bengals worse after this offseason? May, 23, 2014 By Coley Harvey | ESPN.com CINCINNATI -- The question -- did their offseason moves make the Cincinnati Bengals worse? -- is one I've received often in the past month, particularly from passionate fans. They are concerned about the timing of the team's extensions and re-signings, the losses of Michael Johnson, Anthony Collins, Andrew Hawkins and Mike Zimmer, and the lack of big-name free-agent additions. Even as good a draft pick as cornerback Darqueze Dennard appears to be, there is also some unease about the rest of the draft class. All of the anxiety is warranted. Time will tell how much the departure of defensive coordinator Mike Zimmer will impact the Bengals. If you ask some of ESPN's NFL Insiders the question above, they will answer with a resounding "yes." That was made clear Thursday when Insider Mike Sando published his offseason grades for all 32 teams , and handed the Bengals a C-plus. Some might say the "plus" was too high a grade. C-minus or worse was more like it, in their eyes. Why might some feel that way? Because they are answering the question posed above the same way Insider Field Yates did. "Ultimately, the question is, did this team go from three straight playoff appearances to taking the next step?" Yates asked in Sando's assessment of the Bengals' offseason. "I do not think they are enough improved to consider them challenging for one or two playoff wins. The loss of Zimmer is gigantic. They could miss Collins on their [offensive] line knowing some of the concerns relating to injury and other question marks with Andrew Whitworth and Andre Smith. I understand the price tag for Michael Johnson was too high. I wouldn't be surprised if the money was going to contracts for nucleus players, but for now, they have money unspent that is just sitting and waiting." The nucleus players Yates is alluding to are, for now, primarily quarterback Andy Dalton and linebacker Vontaze Burfict. Both are in the middle of contract negotiations with the Bengals that would keep them in Cincinnati after their rookie deals expire next March. They could easily could combine for more than $20 million in cap space if re-signed this offseason. The Bengals have about $24.5 million in unused cap dollars for the 2014 season. That ranks as the third-most cap space in the league. How have the Cincinnati Bengals fared this offseason? Much improved Slightly improved About the same Slightly worse Much worse Had Cincinnati been able to re-sign Johnson, the defensive end drafted in 2009, it likely would have cost between $8 million and $9 million per season. His deal with Tampa Bay, signed in March, is to pay him about $8.75 million annually. Along with the slow progression in contract talks for Dalton and Burfict, and the losses of Johnson and Collins, the Bengals also were hit this offseason with the loss of longtime defensive coordinator Zimmer, who accepted Minnesota's head-coaching job. Though it's clear the Insiders think Zimmer's departure will be a serious blow to the Bengals, I disagree. It will be a challenge to move forward after losing such a sharp defensive mind and hard-coaching personality, but from a schematic standpoint they might even gain something by having Paul Guenther take over the coordinator's duties. It was Guenther who came up with some of the team's more creative blitz packages in recent seasons. The loss of offensive coordinator Jay Gruden also could be bothersome, but new offensive coordinator Hue Jackson already has started addressing some of the areas that were most deficient for the Bengals last season; namely the running game. Something else to remember: The Bengals might have lost a number of pieces, but the majority of their losses were anticipated. Plans had been in place for some time to slide Jackson into Gruden's old spot and Guenther into Zimmer's. Both departures had been expected, just as Collins' and Johnson's were. Aside from those losses, the Bengals kept much of the rest of their foundation in place. So, Yates is right. It's not so much a matter of what the Bengals did or didn't do this offseason that is the question. It's about whether what they did was enough to make the Bengals a better team or a worse team. I'm not sure we can call them a worse team, but for now, there are some reasons to believe they won't be dramatically better than they have been the past few seasons. Do you agree? Let us know what you think in the poll above. http://espn.go.com/blog/cincinnati-bengals/post/_/id/7995/bengals-mike-sando-offseason-grades-insider-worse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squirrlnutz Posted May 23, 2014 Report Share Posted May 23, 2014 no Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelWeston Posted May 23, 2014 Report Share Posted May 23, 2014 Yes, and I think it's pretty clear. You can't lose guys like Anthony Collins and Michael Johnson and not be worse on paper. Now with healthier players and a simplified offense for Dalton we might be better, but on paper we are worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|schotzee| Posted May 23, 2014 Report Share Posted May 23, 2014 who cares about what on paper says? A year or two ago we were considered the best on paper and that proved nothing. I think the winning culture is now here to where they can plug n play guys n still be very successful.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted May 23, 2014 Report Share Posted May 23, 2014 Yes, and I think it's pretty clear. You can't lose guys like Anthony Collins and Michael Johnson and not be worse on paper. Now with healthier players and a simplified offense for Dalton we might be better, but on paper we are worse. I would argue they planned accordingly for MJ in drafting Hunt, now whether he turns up and makes the loss of MJ negligible remains to be seen. I agree with Collins though, I think we all wanted someone drafted as a backup LT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inigo Montoya Posted May 23, 2014 Report Share Posted May 23, 2014 Hard to argue against that analysis. Outside of trading Gruden for Hue, I do not see any significant upgrades this off season. Personnel is mostly the same outside losing MJ and Collins. The rookie class may have three guys who contribute right away (Dennard, Hill, Bodine) and Daniel Manning should help at safety. Replacing Zimmer is very much a question mark, IMO. The duo of Guenther and Vance Joseph has promise, but Zimmer was a special coach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scharm Posted May 23, 2014 Report Share Posted May 23, 2014 On paper? Yes. However, the NFL is parity driven. Swings in performance can be driven by turnover, injury, momentum, or unexpected career years etc. So while MJ, Collins are gone. Who the fuck was Collins 2 years ago? MJ 2 years ago? On paper isn't the way to look at the NFL. The way to look at it, IMO, is the 2014 Bengals are at the top part of the large pool that have a shot at 1 of 12 spots. Many ways to beat player losses that show up on paper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelWeston Posted May 23, 2014 Report Share Posted May 23, 2014 who cares about what on paper says? A year or two ago we were considered the best on paper and that proved nothing. I think the winning culture is now here to where they can plug n play guys n still be very successful.. Then there are so many variables that the question is impossible to answer. The question was are we worse. I still expect them to be very successful but more things have to fall just right for us to be successful. We also lost Zimmer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelWeston Posted May 23, 2014 Report Share Posted May 23, 2014 I would argue they planned accordingly for MJ in drafting Hunt, now whether he turns up and makes the loss of MJ negligible remains to be seen. I agree with Collins though, I think we all wanted someone drafted as a backup LT. I think thats a good argument about MJ but MJ was great. Hunt's a huge question mark...and I loved that pick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snarkster Posted May 23, 2014 Report Share Posted May 23, 2014 I would argue that not signing Johnson & Collins for $13-15M actualy is a net plus for this team. I believe Whitworth back to LT mitigates the loss of Collis quite nicely. And while Johnson is undeniably talented, the strength of this DLine (and D on thewhole) has always been its depth and interchanchangeability. I really like Margus and I think Clarke is gonaa be a very nice pickup that keeps the rotation strong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bengals1181 Posted May 23, 2014 Report Share Posted May 23, 2014 what's always ignored in these discussions is the progression of young players still getting better. They've lost some pieces, gained some pieces, and the young nucleus is getting more experienced. The last part, tends to be overlooked. The Bengals have 12 starters just entering, or about to enter their prime (That's not even counting guys like Kirkpatrick, Williams, Sanu, Burkhead, Thompson, Still, etc. who themselves are also still improving) Those 12 guys, they're still improving from year to year. The best way to look at it, is by position: QB: Improved, depth and starter progression RB: Improved, improved talent WR: Static?: loss of Hawkins, but improvement of Jones, Sanu and Hamilton OL: Unknown: Cook gone, Bodine added, Boling a wildcard. Zeitler and Hawkinson progression. Collins is gone but Whit says he's finally healthy again. Starting unit probably a wash, depth downgraded. TE: Improved, Eifert progression, potential of Charles moving back to his natural position FB: Improved, Charles bound to be better, or multiple replacements brought in. This position can't get worse than 2013. S: Improved, progession of Iloka and Williams, addition of Manning LB: Improved, Burfict still improving, getting Lamur and Mays back, Dimanche improving, Porter back, Flowers added DL: Downgrade, MJ gone, Atkins coming off injury and may not be ready for camp, Hunt progression, Dunlap still progressing, Geathers back, Clarke added. Montgomery and Moch added. If either one of them plays to their potential, this moves up. CB: Upgraded/Static: Hall coming off major injury, Dennard added, Kirkpatrick progressing, Newman digressing, Jones coming off career year. Coaching: OC: Certainly seems to be an upgrade at this point DC: I have faith in Guenther, but have to assume downgrade Adding Vance Joseph, definitely a big one for the "plus column" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted May 23, 2014 Report Share Posted May 23, 2014 Yes, we lost Collins, MJ, Zimmer, and Gruden. Collins: I think it hurts depth more than anything else. A healthy Whit is a little less as a pass blocker, but a better run blocker. I think what happens at C and LG will say more about the quality of the O-line. MJ: More PT for Gilberry, getting Geathers back, possibly moving Dunlap to RDE and the development of Hunt and Clarke (eventually) I think can make up for it. Gruden: I think Hue will be an upgrade. And I think the talent will also be better. I expect our offense to be much better. Zimmer: tough call. Guenther learned under the guy, and inherits a lot more talent than Zimmer did. And the scheme won't change much. I will be surprised if we see much of a drop off on D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rumble In the Jungle Posted May 23, 2014 Report Share Posted May 23, 2014 A lot of people think that because we've been to the playoffs the last 3 seasons that we are in this year again! I don't think this team can do that this year. Our schedule is very tough and I predicted an 8-8 or 9-7 early on. I hope I'm wrong but just sayin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldcat Posted May 23, 2014 Report Share Posted May 23, 2014 I would argue they planned accordingly for MJ in drafting Hunt, now whether he turns up and makes the loss of MJ negligible remains to be seen. I agree with Collins though, I think we all wanted someone drafted as a backup LT. We did sign one in FA though, so like with the MJ move they had a solution before the draft. Time will see if the solution is effective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|schotzee| Posted May 23, 2014 Report Share Posted May 23, 2014 Then there are so many variables that the question is impossible to answer. The question was are we worse. I still expect them to be very successful but more things have to fall just right for us to be successful. We also lost Zimmer. Very true. Its a very broad question.. Don't think there is a wrong answer, but fun to talk about Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBandJoeyV Posted May 23, 2014 Report Share Posted May 23, 2014 what's always ignored in these discussions is the progression of young players still getting better. They've lost some pieces, gained some pieces, and the young nucleus is getting more experienced. The last part, tends to be overlooked. The Bengals have 12 starters just entering, or about to enter their prime (That's not even counting guys like Kirkpatrick, Williams, Sanu, Burkhead, Thompson, Still, etc. who themselves are also still improving) Those 12 guys, they're still improving from year to year. The best way to look at it, is by position: QB: Improved, depth and starter progression RB: Improved, improved talent WR: Static?: loss of Hawkins, but improvement of Jones, Sanu and Hamilton OL: Unknown: Cook gone, Bodine added, Boling a wildcard. Zeitler and Hawkinson progression. Collins is gone but Whit says he's finally healthy again. Starting unit probably a wash, depth downgraded. TE: Improved, Eifert progression, potential of Charles moving back to his natural position FB: Improved, Charles bound to be better, or multiple replacements brought in. This position can't get worse than 2013. S: Improved, progession of Iloka and Williams, addition of Manning LB: Improved, Burfict still improving, getting Lamur and Mays back, Dimanche improving, Porter back, Flowers added DL: Downgrade, MJ gone, Atkins coming off injury and may not be ready for camp, Hunt progression, Dunlap still progressing, Geathers back, Clarke added. Montgomery and Moch added. If either one of them plays to their potential, this moves up. CB: Upgraded/Static: Hall coming off major injury, Dennard added, Kirkpatrick progressing, Newman digressing, Jones coming off career year. Coaching: OC: Certainly seems to be an upgrade at this point DC: I have faith in Guenther, but have to assume downgrade Adding Vance Joseph, definitely a big one for the "plus column" Good thought out post. Not nearly as simple as saying "oh because we lost Collins and mj it automatically means downgrade." The majority of players on our team are still in their first 4 years or so. Usually that means those guys are going to improve. There are only a couple older guys that might be worse than last year. I think the improvement of our young guys, plus the guys we drafted, will make this team better in 2014 than 2013. Doesn't really mean jack shit at this point though. Have to go out and play well in big games, clutch situations, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted May 23, 2014 Report Share Posted May 23, 2014 A lot of people think that because we've been to the playoffs the last 3 seasons that we are in this year again! I don't think this team can do that this year. Our schedule is very tough and I predicted an 8-8 or 9-7 early on. I hope I'm wrong but just sayin. Our opponent winning percentage is lower this year than it was last. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inigo Montoya Posted May 23, 2014 Report Share Posted May 23, 2014 Our opponent winning percentage is lower this year than it was last. That is true. Our biggest schedule disadvantage is having to play the Pats and Broncos while the rest of our division doesn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelWeston Posted May 23, 2014 Report Share Posted May 23, 2014 Very true. Its a very broad question.. Don't think there is a wrong answer, but fun to talk about Exactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted May 23, 2014 Report Share Posted May 23, 2014 I think thats a good argument about MJ but MJ was great. Hunt's a huge question mark...and I loved that pick. Great is a bit overstated Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|kennethmw| Posted May 23, 2014 Report Share Posted May 23, 2014 No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rcarpenter62 Posted May 23, 2014 Report Share Posted May 23, 2014 Our opponent winning percentage is lower this year than it was last. The entire strength of schedule thing prior to the season starting is BS to me. Things look a lot different when the season starts. But is at least gives everyone something to talk about in the dead of the off-season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnglishBengal Posted May 23, 2014 Report Share Posted May 23, 2014 No. I think this year's draft on paper is pretty underrated. If anything I think the team is the same if not better in all position groups except for DE and backup LT. So time to stand up and be counted Mr. Hunt and Mr. Newhouse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelWeston Posted May 23, 2014 Report Share Posted May 23, 2014 But the problem with drafts is that everyone has them. Everyone improved abut the same when it comes to the draft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Lucid| Posted May 23, 2014 Report Share Posted May 23, 2014 But the problem with drafts is that everyone has them. Everyone improved abut the same when it comes to the draft. Silly. The teams which are consistently "better" also draft better. There is an undeniable correlation. It's absolutely not true to say all teams improve equally with the draft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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