Sink or Swim: RGIII, Bradford, Cutler, Dalton

[scharm]

For the record, I am in the boat of make him play the year out unless you can get him under a pretty team friendly deal with an out or two.

With that being said it's naive to think there is no risk to doing that. The people saying essentially "there is no reason at all to pay him now" aren't even close to correct. Although that's a small few.

The one saying they don't want to get stuck with a shitty qb, well I'll just let that one be...whether you think dalton is great is definitely debatable but thinking he is shitty is just dumb.

Risk on either side.

I don't think he's shitty for the record. Through 3 years he's settled in as a marginal, mid tier QB. It's anyone's guess where that leads. I don't think that's something you guarantee significant portions of his contract on.

Different sport - The Votto contract looked awesome a couple years ago now not so much.

[USN Bengal]

 

 

Then you dont remember that Baltimore game.

 

Andy has never done anything remotely like that.

I remember the Baltimore game very well... but let's not make Palmer out to be the second coming of Manning, Brady, Montana, Marino, or Unitas... he was NEVER in their league.

[Khatmandude]

For the record, I am in the boat of make him play the year out unless you can get him under a pretty team friendly deal with an out or two.

With that being said it's naive to think there is no risk to doing that. The people saying essentially "there is no reason at all to pay him now" aren't even close to correct. Although that's a small few.

The one saying they don't want to get stuck with a shitty qb, well I'll just let that one be...whether you think dalton is great is definitely debatable but thinking he is shitty is just dumb.

 

I think anyone with a brain sees the rationale to signing him early (now) due to the finances.  Personally, I'm ok with paying him a few million more per year ONCE he proves he can be a QB this team can rely on to help with the postseason futility that's been witnessed.   Not one that has a huge hand in the losses by turning the ball over, again and again. 

 

But to lock into Dalton for a few million in savings is a risky strategy that could potentially impact the whole franchise adversely if he doesn't improve.   I think the extra few million a year is absolutely worth risking because that's the lesser risk IMO vs being 'married' to a QB who has reached his ceiling. 

 

I hope and think Mike Brown agrees with this line of thinking. 

[USN Bengal]

Risk on either side.

I don't think he's shitty for the record. Through 3 years he's settled in as a marginal, mid tier QB. It's anyone's guess where that leads. I don't think that's something you guarantee significant portions of his contract on.

Different sport - The Votto contract looked awesome a couple years ago now not so much.

 

Good points... Just trying to start actual conversations about football up in here!

 

You will always be scharmtroll to me... have been posting with you WAY too long....LOL!

[Bengals1181]

 

I think anyone with a brain sees the rationale to signing him early (now) due to the finances.  Personally, I'm ok with paying him a few million more per year ONCE he proves he can be a QB this team can rely on to help with the postseason futility that's been witnessed.   Not one that has a huge hand in the losses by turning the ball over, again and again. 

 

But to lock into Dalton for a few million in savings is a risky strategy that could potentially impact the whole franchise adversely if he doesn't improve.   I think the extra few million a year is absolutely worth risking because that's the lesser risk IMO vs being 'married' to a QB who has reached his ceiling. 

 

I hope and think Mike Brown agrees with this line of thinking. 

 

 

IMO the guaranteed money will be far more important than what the actual per year ends up being.  

[Khatmandude]

I remember the Baltimore game very well... but let's not make Palmer out to be the second coming of Manning, Brady, Montana, Marino, or Unitas... he was NEVER in their league.

 

Actually I seem to remember his name in the same conversation as Manning, Brady, Brees during the 2005 season.  Hell, we talked about him in that way on this board.  Then, in 2006 and beyond.........I, along with a select few others, complained that Palmer didn't look to be the same QB post knee shredding and were treated almost the same way as anyone who criticizes Dalton is now.  

 

I too remember the Baltimore game and he pretty much did carry the team to victory and everyone was saying that was his 'coming out party'.  Carson pre knee injury was something to behold.  That guy was GOOD.  He was all there mentally and physically.  Post injury, not so much.    Remember the 3rd and long play where he escaped the sack and hit TJ for a first down?  That was after being sacked on 2nd down I believe by Suggs.  That play told me a great deal about him at that time.  It's a shame what happened to Carson.  

[Khatmandude]

 

 

IMO the guaranteed money will be far more important than what the actual per year ends up being.  

 

Good point....agreed.  

[scharm]

I'm fine with a 80 something rated QB. That same QB can't sink your team's chances in the playoffs and financially can't control your cap.

IMO, he's a product of his surrounding cast to this point. He has hurt their chances for playoff advancement, IMO, hasn't played neutral at all in that area.

So cap/contract - a big cap number IS going to rob the team. We aren't going cash over cap for season after season unless the Brown family changes.

Just like was stated last season they have window open to hang hardware/banners. They did a little of that with another AFC North win.

They have to be in a position to change quickly the next few years. The areas they invest into have to be done right. There are going to be bumps on this roster that aren't going to work out.

At the end of the day you don't want to be sitting in 2010 again going through all the good players you once had and only have 2 AFC North champions to show for it.


Although I'm big fan of AJ Green. He's already on the books for 2 more seasons and scrunity over his deal should be done too and he's the best chance they currently have playing for them that could be HOF.

[scharm]

 
Actually I seem to remember his name in the same conversation as Manning, Brady, Brees during the 2005 season.  Hell, we talked about him in that way on this board.  Then, in 2006 and beyond.........I, along with a select few others, complained that Palmer didn't look to be the same QB post knee shredding and were treated almost the same way as anyone who criticizes Dalton is now.  
 
I too remember the Baltimore game and he pretty much did carry the team to victory and everyone was saying that was his 'coming out party'.  Carson pre knee injury was something to behold.  That guy was GOOD.  He was all there mentally and physically.  Post injury, not so much.    Remember the 3rd and long play where he escaped the sack and hit TJ for a first down?  That was after being sacked on 2nd down I believe by Suggs.  That play told me a great deal about him at that time.  It's a shame what happened to Carson.  

Truth. Turn back the clock and the battles between this board and trashnation and there was no shortage of Carson Palmer elite QB talk.

However, I don't think it's a shame. Carson Palmer could be the QB of this team right now. That was his choice not to buy into this organizatin. He robbed himself of a legacy building moment.

Whether he'd been seen as elite or not would be a question but his individual career direction would have been much better than spending it with the Raiders and now with a loaded NFC West.

[MichaelWeston]

For the record, I am in the boat of make him play the year out unless you can get him under a pretty team friendly deal with an out or two.

With that being said it's naive to think there is no risk to doing that. The people saying essentially "there is no reason at all to pay him now" aren't even close to correct. Although that's a small few.

The one saying they don't want to get stuck with a shitty qb, well I'll just let that one be...whether you think dalton is great is definitely debatable but thinking he is shitty is just dumb.

He was the last three playoff games. I'll give you that overall he is not shitty. He has been ok at times.

[sparky151]

A serious question for all the people who are against Dalton getting extended...

 

Were you in favor of the Quitters extension when he received it?

 

Great numbers in the season, but never won a playoff game or made playoffs in consecutive years... I seem to remember most people were ecstatic with it.

 

I was happy with Palmer's extension at the time. It came late in his second year as a starter and he was playing very well, at a higher level than Dalton has managed thus far.

 

When comparing passer ratings over time, there has been a trend over the last 30 years toward shorter passes. Back in the 70s teams would throw a lot of passes to a Cliff Branch or Isaac Curtis type receiver way downfield. So completion %s were lower, interception %s higher, and average yards per completion higher. That meant lower QB passer ratings and it wasn't unusual for a QB to have more picks than TDs. Various rules changes to help the offense led to higher completion % and lower yards per completion. Bob Trumpy averaged 18 yards per catch as a rookie TE. 

 

The 73 Steelers hold the record for lowest passer rating allowed for a season. If every pass thrown is incomplete, the rating is 38. Theirs was lower than that for the whole season. Back then roughing the QB was rarely called, rushers could head slap blockers, and defenders could hit receivers anywhere on the field. 

[Jamie_B]

I remember the Baltimore game very well... but let's not make Palmer out to be the second coming of Manning, Brady, Montana, Marino, or Unitas... he was NEVER in their league.

 

 

I'm not going to let the way he left cloud my opinion of him. He was before the knee injury #3 right behind Brady and Manning. In fact....

 

 

[MichaelWeston]

 
I think anyone with a brain sees the rationale to signing him early (now) due to the finances.  Personally, I'm ok with paying him a few million more per year ONCE he proves he can be a QB this team can rely on to help with the postseason futility that's been witnessed.   Not one that has a huge hand in the losses by turning the ball over, again and again. 
 
But to lock into Dalton for a few million in savings is a risky strategy that could potentially impact the whole franchise adversely if he doesn't improve.   I think the extra few million a year is absolutely worth risking because that's the lesser risk IMO vs being 'married' to a QB who has reached his ceiling. 
 
I hope and think Mike Brown agrees with this line of thinking. 

This is the drum half of us are beating.

[Jamie_B]

 

 

IMO the guaranteed money will be far more important than what the actual per year ends up being.  

 

 

Agreed

[USN Bengal]

 

 

I'm not going to let the way he left cloud my opinion of him. He was before the knee injury #3 right behind Brady and Manning. In fact....

 

 

 

Pro Bowl MVP?

 

That wouldn't get you enough to buy a cup of crack addict piss...

[USN Bengal]

 

Actually I seem to remember his name in the same conversation as Manning, Brady, Brees during the 2005 season.  Hell, we talked about him in that way on this board.  Then, in 2006 and beyond.........I, along with a select few others, complained that Palmer didn't look to be the same QB post knee shredding and were treated almost the same way as anyone who criticizes Dalton is now.  

 

I too remember the Baltimore game and he pretty much did carry the team to victory and everyone was saying that was his 'coming out party'.  Carson pre knee injury was something to behold.  That guy was GOOD.  He was all there mentally and physically.  Post injury, not so much.    Remember the 3rd and long play where he escaped the sack and hit TJ for a first down?  That was after being sacked on 2nd down I believe by Suggs.  That play told me a great deal about him at that time.  It's a shame what happened to Carson.  

That's actually my point Khat... he was talked about being in that echelon for 1 season, and that 1 season only. If you want to go by stats, Andy Dalton matches up pretty damn well for regular season stats with some legendary QB's... which is why stats can be meaningful, but AREN'T the be all and end all that some want to make them out to be.

As others have alluded to, Palmer also had TJ and Chad when they were performing at their best. Andy has only had AJ... I sincerely think this is a make or break season for Dalton, because with the talent that the majority seem to think that we have on this roster, there is no reason for this team to NOT go deep into the playoffs even if Andy is ONLY a middling QB.

See Trent Dilfer...

[Jamie_B]

 

Pro Bowl MVP?

 

That wouldn't get you enough to buy a cup of crack addict piss...

 

 

Again, I'm not going to let the way he left cloud my opinion of him.

He won that in the same year that he Brady and Manning all went to the Probowl, thus your assertion that he wasn't in their league just isn't true.

[scharm]

If you view this as a make or break season then you are in the camp of not extending him now to a "market" contract, IMO.

Because if he signed that "market" deal today this isn't a make or break season for him financially.


Not going to lie. When Bengals play in the pro bowl. I want them to win the MVP.

[USN Bengal]

 

 

Again, I'm not going to let the way he left cloud my opinion of him.

He won that in the same year that he Brady and Manning all went to the Probowl, thus your assertion that he wasn't in their league just isn't true.

 

Yeah... so?

Pro Bowl MVP in a meaningless game that defenses generally don't even show up in or rarely break a sweat... means less than nothing.
Quitter had a very good year, but Jamie.. please use something else to qualify your outlook... I'm begging you.

 

He couldn't carry Brady and Mannings jocks if he had one hand on them and a team of Ocho Cinco's to assist.

I was stationed in Hawaii from 96-99 and saw all the Pro Bowls... the games were/are a joke.

[Jamie_B]

 

Yeah... so?

Pro Bowl MVP in a meaningless game that defenses generally don't even show up in or rarely break a sweat... means less than nothing.
Quitter had a very good year, but Jamie.. please use something else to qualify your outlook... I'm begging you.

 

He couldn't carry Brady and Mannings jocks if he had one hand on them and a team of Ocho Cinco's to assist.

I was stationed in Hawaii from 96-99 and saw all the Pro Bowls... the games were/are a joke.

 

The mere fact that you've referenced him as quitter not once but twice means you have an inability to be intellectually honest about this.

 

Even if only for a year, the year he got injured, he was mentioned in the same breath as Manning and Brady and not just by us Bengal fans, to say otherwise is revisionist history. 

 

Every single one of us believed had he not got injured in that playoff game that it would have been us rather than the Steelers in the superbowl. I'd venture to say your on that list too.

[USN Bengal]

 

The mere fact that you've referenced him as quitter not once but twice means you have an inability to be intellectually honest about this.

 

Even if only for a year, the year he got injured, he was mentioned in the same breath as Manning and Brady and not just by us Bengal fans, to say otherwise is revisionist history. 

 

Every single one of us believed had he not got injured in that playoff game that it would have been us rather than the Steelers in the superbowl. I'd venture to say your on that list too.

 

You know what Jamie?

 

You have absolutely no clue about my ability to be "intellectually honest", in the same vein, you don't have the ability to see past your own perceptions do you?

 

You see, I have the ability to state the truth (Palmer IS a quitter) and admit that he did have 1 really good season, and I have not tried to revise history... I just refuse to look at the past while blinded by orange colored glasses. Even the "talking heads" who were mentioning him in the same breath as Brady and Manning during that season were WAY premature, and anyone with half a brain could see that and admit that.

 

One season does NOT put you in the same league (or breath) as HOF caliber QB's.

 

I was AT the playoff game and was sure that we were going to win until quitter went down, I thought that quitter had the "IT" factor until after he was Kimo'd.

Then, after some average seasons, the quitter quit. There it is, the total truth... unbiased, black & white, and in the open.

 

You see Jamie I have the "intellectual honesty" to tell the truth, be realistic, and base my opinion on what actually transpired during the one good season and the average seasons that followed. I've also lived long enough to know that once a quitter, always a quitter.

 

So you can shove your "intellectual honesty" up your keester meester.

[Jamie_B]

 

You know what Jamie?

 

You have absolutely no clue about my ability to be "intellectually honest", in the same vein, you don't have the ability to see past your own perceptions do you?

 

You see, I have the ability to state the truth (Palmer IS a quitter) and admit that he did have 1 really good season, and I have not tried to revise history... I just refuse to look at the past while blinded by orange colored glasses. Even the "talking heads" who were mentioning him in the same breath as Brady and Manning during that season were WAY premature, and anyone with half a brain could see that and admit that.

 

One season does NOT put you in the same league (or breath) as HOF caliber QB's.

 

I was AT the playoff game and was sure that we were going to win until quitter went down, I thought that quitter had the "IT" factor until after he was Kimo'd.

Then, after some average seasons, the quitter quit. There it is, the total truth... unbiased, black & white, and in the open.

 

You see Jamie I have the "intellectual honesty" to tell the truth, be realistic, and base my opinion on what actually transpired during the one good season and the average seasons that followed. I've also lived long enough to know that once a quitter, always a quitter.

 

So you can shove your "intellectual honesty" up your keester meester.

 

 

By all means show me were I said anything about multiple seasons. ;)

 

In fact you were pretty extatic for his return post injury along with the rest of us....

 

 

No such thing as "soundling like a puss"... it's just the Bengal love train taking over!!!!!!

 

 

I would also suggest that sadly he was never the same after that knee injury, even if this pre-seaon packers game looked pretty good, I think we all can admit that.

 

So him leaving actually worked out better for us because post knee injury he doesnt look like a guy that can win the big one.

 

Which is entirely the same conversation we are having about Dalton but for different reasons. IE: Can he win the big one.

 

So be mad at him all you want, I frankly dont care. I, unlike you apparently, have moved on from Carson, and would rather have conversations about guys that are currently on this team.

[alleycat]

As for Palmer, he didn't become a quitter after his knee crumpled. Being a quitter is the culmination of a lifetime of character weakness finally manifesting itself.

 

As for the pay Dalton now or later argument, the easy solution is to tell him you're going to pay him under his contract this year, and tag him next year, which will end up being a nice, cheap, team friendly 10-11MM/year average. 

 

The problem with that is (aside from the obvious cap troubles in the franchise year (get those other deals done NOW!)), if he DOES become the QB that sets the world on fire, you will have to make him the top paid QB in the league, because not only will he have the demand, but he'll have the bad taste in his mouth with the way the Bengals played him, and of course, probably not have a very hard time remembering how unappreciated he was by the legions of fair-weather fans that have long undermined this team.

 

Lastly, any discussion about his salary needs to take into account the steep inflation of the salary cap, and that any deal which seems like a lot of money today will be a relative bargain 3-5 years from now.  If you get him for something in the second tier of QB salaries (something that I don't think he'd settle for at this point, given his historical performance), he'd be a good value now and a steal later.

[alleycat]

You see Jamie I have the "intellectual honesty" to tell the truth, be realistic, and base my opinion on what actually transpired

 

None of which are of any use against the likes of JamieB

[Jamie_B]

 

None of which are of any use against the likes of JamieB

 

 

Someone is still butthurt