Jamie_B Posted May 28, 2014 Report Share Posted May 28, 2014 Sure it does. Because if you're stupid enough to continue to pine after that quitter bitch, then every other thought you have in your head is suspect, and must be discounted. Nobody is pining over Palmer. Sharm nailed it, it was brought up as relative to the contract and time periods. If anything people cant move on from him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scharm Posted May 28, 2014 Report Share Posted May 28, 2014 The Palmer deal ended up being very good for the franchise. How is that revisionist history? They had cap room to add/retain pieces and got draft picks. I'm glad he left. Forced the issue that management wasn't willing to do. Palmer robbed himself of a chance to prove that he was that level a QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alleycat Posted May 28, 2014 Report Share Posted May 28, 2014 Unfortunately there's nothing in Dalton's resume (to date) that states elite regardless if Palmer's big burst on the scene was real or not. Except for, you know, this: Dalton is just one of three quarterbacks in NFL history to have thrown for over 3000 yards in each of his first three seasons, joining Cam Newton and Peyton Manning, and just one of three to have passed for at least 20 touchdowns in each of his first three seasons, joining Manning and Dan Marino. Dalton is the only quarterback to lead the Cincinnati Bengals to three consecutive playoff berths, and just one of five quarterbacks to lead his team to the playoffs in each of his first three seasons. He is also the Bengals franchise record holder for passing yards and touchdowns in a season.[5] EDIT: On further glance, I can't seem to spot Carson Palmer's name in there... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted May 28, 2014 Report Share Posted May 28, 2014 This is clouding the issue. He was mentioned in that breath because of his physical skill set. Matt Stafford is mentioned in those breaths as well because of his physical skill set. The real question is did that skill set get us to where we wanted to be? One time it came close, but every other time it failed. I'll take Andy Dalton and 3 consecutive playoff berths over Matt Stafford and 10 million yards while going 2-28 against winning teams. Skill set and scouting reports are still clouding the issue. Someone quoted the guy I have on ignore and he had the fucking gall to say Carson could win games by himself? What fucking games did he take the team on his back and win? I seem to remember him having an atrocious time throughout his career when the pocket wasn't pretty. When routes were a yard off there were a lot of INTs, and when things mattered against our rivals he seemed to have a knack for finding Polamalu wide open in the flat. His last pass for us was a throw away on 4th down. 4th fucking down. ANDY DALTON is consistently more successful in the regular season than Carson Palmer throughout his entire career. You pay QBs with that consistancy, get it done. Well there in lies the rub. You guys want to go on about how the team lost the playoff game and not Dalton, I disagree, but for that measure I pose this. Would you take a Matt Stafford on this team all other things being equal? Would you take a Pre-knee Injury Carson on this team? He's probably more successful in the post season than Carson as well. I'm glad you are accepting my point and admit your error. :lol: Yeah that's what happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted May 28, 2014 Report Share Posted May 28, 2014 Yeah, that Carson Palmer really helped us! Nothing was more helpful than announcing he'd rather quit the game than honor his 100MM contract with us -- just before the draft where were forced to call his bluff and take a QB, when we should have had the luxury of building other areas of our team. Carson, the Benevolent, we should call him. LMAO, and THIS is coming from the guy who regularly accuses everyone else on here of revisionist history. If you could see past your blind hatred for the guy you would admit that he wasnt the same QB post-injuries and that offloading him for the picks we got did indeed help us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bengals1181 Posted May 28, 2014 Report Share Posted May 28, 2014 Well there in lies the rub. You guys want to go on about how the team lost the playoff game and not Dalton, I disagree, but for that measure I pose this. Would you take a Matt Stafford on this team all other things being equal? Would you take a Pre-knee Injury Carson on this team? :lol: Yeah that's what happened. would you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|schotzee| Posted May 28, 2014 Report Share Posted May 28, 2014 Anyone have an idea off the top of their heads as to said player A tends to regress or improve after they have signed a lucrative contract extension ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted May 28, 2014 Report Share Posted May 28, 2014 would you? Not sure to be honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scharm Posted May 28, 2014 Report Share Posted May 28, 2014 would you? I would. All day long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bengals1181 Posted May 28, 2014 Report Share Posted May 28, 2014 I would. All day long. why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scharm Posted May 28, 2014 Report Share Posted May 28, 2014 Anyone have an idea off the top of their heads as to said player A tends to regress or improve after they have signed a lucrative contract extension ? It could go either way. Really depends on the viewpoint. Any extension of Andy Dalton is going to pay him more than his rookie deal. So are you paying more to procure the current level or potential? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scharm Posted May 28, 2014 Report Share Posted May 28, 2014 why? Because I think he has the skills and enough track record in the NFL to reach the next level if he were to land with the current day Cincinnati Bengals. If the Bengals were a shit pile of disfunction like pre Marivn, I'm not so sure I'd make that same decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JC Posted May 28, 2014 Report Share Posted May 28, 2014 I think it's hard to compare the Carson and Andy contract. Carson was coming off a near MVP season and his contract on the time was on the old-CBA which probably only bumped his yearly total up a little bit. Not sure if true, but it could have been in attempt to get him signed before Peyton/Brady at that time. Pure speculation and laziness on my part, but I don't care to look it up. Andy isn't exactly coming off an MVP season, although he had a very good one. Hard to justify 1/7th of the cap on Andy Dalton/Alex Smith, whom is also looking for Cutler money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bengals1181 Posted May 28, 2014 Report Share Posted May 28, 2014 Because I think he has the skills and enough track record in the NFL to reach the next level if he were to land with the current day Cincinnati Bengals. If the Bengals were a shit pile of disfunction like pre Marivn, I'm not so sure I'd make that same decision And there it is. Physical skills blinding reality. Stafford has been in the league 5 seasons. He has ONE winning season. He only has ONE season where he even completed 60% of his passes (25 QB's completed at least 60% of their passes last year). In his 5 years, FOUR times has he thrown 16 or more interceptions. For all his arm strength, his career YPA is only .03 higher than Dalton's. Stafford has a track record, but it ain't exactly pretty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orange 'n Black Posted May 28, 2014 Report Share Posted May 28, 2014 Hey guys, LaVar Arrington is a free agent! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|kennethmw| Posted May 28, 2014 Report Share Posted May 28, 2014 And there it is. Physical skills blinding reality. Stafford has been in the league 5 seasons. He has ONE winning season. He only has ONE season where he even completed 60% of his passes (25 QB's completed at least 60% of their passes last year). In his 5 years, FOUR times has he thrown 16 or more interceptions. For all his arm strength, his career YPA is only .03 higher than Dalton's. Stafford has a track record, but it ain't exactly pretty. Quit spouting those damn, pesky facts!!! :contract: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted May 28, 2014 Report Share Posted May 28, 2014 And there it is. Physical skills blinding reality. Stafford has been in the league 5 seasons. He has ONE winning season. He only has ONE season where he even completed 60% of his passes (25 QB's completed at least 60% of their passes last year). In his 5 years, FOUR times has he thrown 16 or more interceptions. For all his arm strength, his career YPA is only .03 higher than Dalton's. Stafford has a track record, but it ain't exactly pretty. Going back to the question though, it was referenced as is that Stafford or the Lions? I mean people want to go on about the Bengals losing that playoff game and not Andy. Same thing. That's why I said I don't know, because Stafford may have physical tools, but I'm not sure if I believe he could put a team on his back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelWeston Posted May 28, 2014 Report Share Posted May 28, 2014 shit pile of disfunction Would be a cool band name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scharm Posted May 28, 2014 Report Share Posted May 28, 2014 And there it is. Physical skills blinding reality. Stafford has been in the league 5 seasons. He has ONE winning season. He only has ONE season where he even completed 60% of his passes (25 QB's completed at least 60% of their passes last year). In his 5 years, FOUR times has he thrown 16 or more interceptions. For all his arm strength, his career YPA is only .03 higher than Dalton's. Stafford has a track record, but it ain't exactly pretty. disappointed you have such little faith in our organization that they can not coach up physical skills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Harley| Posted May 28, 2014 Report Share Posted May 28, 2014 Simple math terms. Lets say the average qb is a 5. Lets just say Dalton is a 5. Bengals have a very good reason to think he is just a few small improvements (consistency, limiting turnovers, and performance in big games) away from being about an 8 caliber. Hypothetically, you could sign him right now at the level of a 6.5. Is there a risk by signing him now at the level of a 6.5 when hes only currently a 5? Of course. Is there a risk of not signing him now, him turning into the 8 you think he will? Yes because you risk either a) having to pay him like a 9 or 10 or B) he walks because you arent willing to pay him what he wants and he wants to test out free agency knowing he can get paid like a 9 or 10 after playing like an 8. Now a few big questions. 1. Do they think Dalton could easily become an 8 or better? If not, what do they think he could fairly reasonably turn into? 2. Would dalton be willing to take a 6.5ish deal now? I know this is pretty simplistic terms, but it definitely explains both sides of the argument. It explains the risk of signing him now and the risk of not signing him now. Here's the problem. You can't sign him now for 6.5 money. He wants 8 money now, even if he is a 5 now. So, you risk overpaying with less knowledge that he could become a 7, 8, or 9. I'd happily overpay 9 money in 2015 if I saw at least 7 caliber play by the end of the season. I don't know what he is and not sure anyone really does. I don't think anything more is going to change for him physically so now it's how far can he improve with the mental speed and decision-making part of his game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|schotzee| Posted May 28, 2014 Report Share Posted May 28, 2014 Mike and Katie just extend him already so this dead horse here can be buried already...:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alleycat Posted May 28, 2014 Report Share Posted May 28, 2014 I'd happily overpay 9 money in 2015 if I saw at least 7 caliber play by the end of the season. Except if he's giving 7 caliber play by the end of the season he'll want 10 caliber money. You may not like it, but the NFL has always overpayed for potential and progress. How else can you justify the MASSIVE gamble that has been the draft for these many years. Still, I think I'd adjust your numbers, as I think you're underselling him a bit. Why don't we use passer rating and kick off a decimal point? He's performing like an 8.5, wants 9.5 money now, but if he performs like a 9.0 QB next year, will want 10.0+ money, because he'll still be trending up and knows that that track record of consistent improvement is something teams will be willing to invest in. Splitting hairs with your version, perhaps, but I think it's more representative of reality than calling Dalton a 5 on a scale of 1 to 10 that will be paid like a 9 (almost 2x his value) if he performs at a 7.5 (50% of his value). Marvin's citing of Cutler's deal pretty much confirms as much. In that light, I'd think the margin of a couple of million here or there isn't worth fretting over too much. Get the best deal you can now, and then enjoy the good value for money you get in years 3 and after... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|schotzee| Posted May 28, 2014 Report Share Posted May 28, 2014 Will you Dalton defenders just shut the fuck up already.. He's not worth a big extension ...admit it.. If you were the one paying the guy would you honestly feel the same way?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldcat Posted May 29, 2014 Report Share Posted May 29, 2014 Will you Dalton defenders just shut the fuck up already.. He's not worth a big extension ...admit it.. If you were the one paying the guy would you honestly feel the same way?? Since you are not paying for it, why don't you shut up about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|kennethmw| Posted May 29, 2014 Report Share Posted May 29, 2014 Will you Dalton defenders just shut the fuck up already.. He's not worth a big extension ...admit it.. If you were the one paying the guy would you honestly feel the same way?? That actually sounds like words you should take upon yourself. :0stfu: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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