Pratt wants out.

[|High School Harry|]

Third round pick or buzz off.

Lou?  Lou Armadillo?  Are you listening?

[LostInDaJungle]

18 hours ago, T-Dub said:

 

Sure they have a chance, but do you want to bet another season on that?

Look at the top teams... They have a handful of guys on Max deals and a bunch of guys on Rookie deals or min deals.

Paying premium money for a non-premium player at a non-premium position is something top teams don't do.

[Shebengal]

22 hours ago, sparky151 said:

 

Did Trey Brown get hired in Jacksonville? I thought they were still interviewing? If we did get the 3rds for a GM hiring, that would be very helpful.

 

 

MY bad. I thought I had seen somewhere that he was hired, but I can't find it now and Jacksonville is still interviewing people. 🤨

[T-Dub]

5 hours ago, LostInDaJungle said:

Look at the top teams... They have a handful of guys on Max deals and a bunch of guys on Rookie deals or min deals.

Paying premium money for a non-premium player at a non-premium position is something top teams don't do.

 

Top teams draft well so they don't have to do that. Failing that, the options are free agents or do without.  WTF do I care if the Brown Family Trust has to overpay for a 2-down NT? They can afford it.

[|kennethmw|]

6 minutes ago, T-Dub said:

 

Top teams draft well so they don't have to do that. Failing that, the options are free agents or do without.  WTF do I care if the Brown Family Trust has to overpay for a 2-down NT? They can afford it.

Maybe the Change of having a DC that has been forced to develop players because his best ones left every four years will make a difference.  Anarumo Seemed to be more inclined to want veterans over Building what we drafted.  

[LostInDaJungle]

6 minutes ago, T-Dub said:

WTF do I care if the Brown Family Trust has to overpay for a 2-down NT? They can afford it.

If they could afford it, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

[sparky151]

21 hours ago, T-Dub said:

 

I'm looking for a quicker turn-around but you're probably right.   Taking Dax Hill & Murpy back to back was not great.  I like Jenkins & Jackson in rotation with a couple others, at least one of them a vet. Wouldn't waste any more time on Rankins, give that contract to a DE, they can get another 2-down DT for less.  At least one LB that's more of a thumper  than a cover guy, someone to make plays at the LoS & between the hashes that will take on blockers inside.  A physical DB with center-fielder range, like what Stone was advertised as somehow but for real.

 

That's.. 5? On defense. Are we really bringing back Joe Bachie? Volson too?

 

We need new starters at LDE and LB to replace Hubbard and Pratt. We don't have the replacements on the roster currently. It would be nice to add a couple of veteran DTs and perhaps a vet FS as well. The good news is that we can (at least in theory) sign affordable vets for most of our needs. We could probably get Teair Tart +  Poona Ford for 10 mil combined or what we save from Hubbard or Rankins. They could rotate with Jackson and Jenkins and Tart give us more interior pass rush. Dre Greenlaw is coming back from injury but is an upgrade from Pratt. Julian Blackmon would probably be an upgrade from Stone at a similar price. 

 

Regarding Bachie and Volson, we don't want either as a starter but as cheap depth, they are ok. The problem for Volson is his salary jumped due to playing so much his first 3 years. So Ford is less expensive in addition to being better. Bachie shouldn't get many defensive snaps but is ok on teams. 

 

17 hours ago, alleycat said:

It's so hard to build a team based on projections of guys who haven't really demonstrated the "it" factor they were drafted for suddenly growing into it.

 

Our LBs had massive tackle numbers because literally no one was home to stop the run on the D-Line. Can we depend on the two rookies making a remarkable leap forward this year from last? How did that leap work out with Murphy or Ossai or...pretty much go down the list of the entire team...with the exception of Chase Brown I can't think of a recent player whose performance truly broke out from one season to the next. So yeah, we're going to need two more interior DL in my opinion, and that should probably be a draft pick and a vet. Of course, we need another difference maker at DE opposite Trey, and I would NORMALLY say that I'd take one elite guy either there or at 3Tech and be happy with a serviceable smaller contract vet at the other, but that's already a whole lot of need, a whole lot of holes to fill, and not a hole lot of resources to do it with - if we get the kinds of moves we want on the other side of the ball. 

 

That said, if we had serviceable influx of talent at DE and DT, I'd argue that the single biggest difference making move on this defense would be to add a true dominator at LB. Not a little too slow run-and-chase type that let's runners come to them or drags down crossers AFTER they make the catch and run (I'm looking at you Logan Wilson and Pratt), but a dominant, smart, tone-setting knock the snot out of you linebacker. Nothing would elevate this team further/faster. 

 

Except maybe a real Safety. 

 

Did I mention we have a lot of holes?

 

We have enough cap space to add a lot of depth and go into the draft in position to take the best player available. You're right that the guys we've picked recently need to show more but we're married to them for their rookie contracts. My guess is we use most of our picks and the early ones on defense.

 

[sparky151]

10 hours ago, High School Harry said:

Third round pick or buzz off.

Lou?  Lou Armadillo?  Are you listening?

 

Nobody would give a 3rd for Pratt. A 7th, maybe. I'd ask for a 6th or a pick swap, ie Pratt and our 6th for a 5th. Maybe we get it, maybe we don't. Either way we move on and save the 5.6 mil.

 

7 hours ago, LostInDaJungle said:

Look at the top teams... They have a handful of guys on Max deals and a bunch of guys on Rookie deals or min deals.

Paying premium money for a non-premium player at a non-premium position is something top teams don't do.

 

Nobody is going to pay Pratt premium money. The problem with him isn't that he's too expensive, it's that he's not very good. 

 

1 hour ago, LostInDaJungle said:

If they could afford it, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

 

Unquestionably, the team can afford to make a lot of moves this offseason. That doesn't mean they are willing or creative enough to make those moves or that their player evaluations will be good. But money isn't an obstacle. 

 

[LostInDaJungle]

23 minutes ago, sparky151 said:

Unquestionably, the team can afford to make a lot of moves this offseason. That doesn't mean they are willing or creative enough to make those moves or that their player evaluations will be good. But money isn't an obstacle. 

We wouldn't be debating if Pratt was worth the money if money was no object. If money is truly no object, then sure, keep his overpriced ass to be the new guy's backup. Fine.

But this discussion isn't happening in a vacuum. It IS about the money, specifically the money to resign Tee and Jamarr. It is about whether Pratt is worth $7.6ish Million this year. Pretending otherwise is counter-productive to having a real conversation about the topic.

If money is truly not an obstacle, I expect everyone back. Tee, Jamarr, Mike, Trey... The whole crew. But if you're in some other thread talking about not being able to afford Tee because we have to keep a 110th ranked MLB... Or the 122nd ranked edge rusher... Oh, no, what if we draft some rookie who sucks??

[T-Dub]

2 hours ago, kennethmw said:

Maybe the Change of having a DC that has been forced to develop players because his best ones left every four years will make a difference.  Anarumo Seemed to be more inclined to want veterans over Building what we drafted.  

 

 

We really need the light to come on for 1-2 of them & I don't rule that out.   Problem there being we won't know one way or the other until around this time next year.  We need defense now, I'm not ready to concede some sort of "rebuilding" year.  If we wanted to wait we could've kept Anarumo, I expect he'll have the Colts D playing well in a year or two himself.  We've got one (1) proven impact player on our defense and his price keeps going up along with our starting WR's, TE, LB's, the list goes on...

 

Keep coming back to this, but they've drafted somewhat poorly, so now they have to overpay for FA's in order to compete with the teams that have been better at it. That likely played into Lou being fired as well.  

 

I'm sure those teams are carrying a contract or two they feel is overly generous, but that player fills a need or has stepped up for them in big moments & just might have something left in the tank.  Sample & Hubbard would be good examples of our own that are on that bubble.  Good teams are constantly turning over the roster at this level, they aren't trying to draft a starting defense for the upcoming season.

 

 

1 hour ago, sparky151 said:

 

We have enough cap space to add a lot of depth and go into the draft in position to take the best player available.

 

 

 

Exactly, I'll believe they can't afford X-Y-Z player when that money is spent.   Joe's called them out enough, we all know they can manage things several different ways and retain whoever they want with money left over.  On top of the franchise QB holding their feet to the fire they've got their financials all over the internet now. Their days of being able to drink champagne from the NFL tit & not be bothered are over.  Ain't none of them 'bout to starve either way - what's the worst case? They have to sell a few points in the team to float things for a while?  Maybe the family reunion is in Gatlinburg instead of the Greek Isles next year.  They'll be fine.

 

If ever there was a time to go all in, this would be it.  Frankly I'm not convinced they've got the stones for it.

[sparky151]

1 hour ago, LostInDaJungle said:

We wouldn't be debating if Pratt was worth the money if money was no object. If money is truly no object, then sure, keep his overpriced ass to be the new guy's backup. Fine.

But this discussion isn't happening in a vacuum. It IS about the money, specifically the money to resign Tee and Jamarr. It is about whether Pratt is worth $7.6ish Million this year. Pretending otherwise is counter-productive to having a real conversation about the topic.

If money is truly not an obstacle, I expect everyone back. Tee, Jamarr, Mike, Trey... The whole crew. But if you're in some other thread talking about not being able to afford Tee because we have to keep a 110th ranked MLB... Or the 122nd ranked edge rusher... Oh, no, what if we draft some rookie who sucks??

 

They can certainly afford to re-sign Chase and Higgins whether they keep Pratt or not. The conversation about Pratt is that he wants to be traded. Let's give him what he wants. Since he should be cut anyway, even a 7th round pick for him is fine. 

 

The Bengals can easily afford to keep Burrow's requested 4 plus add a lot of outside talent. I did a test this afternoon where the Bengals cut the stiffs, and handled contracts ala Roseman. After re-signing the big 4, the team was 128 million under the cap for 2025. If the team wants to operate more conservatively with no void years, no restructurings, and relatively even cap hits across the years of a contract, they could do so and be about 70 mil under the cap after re-signing the big 4. 

 

1 hour ago, T-Dub said:

 

 

We really need the light to come on for 1-2 of them & I don't rule that out.   Problem there being we won't know one way or the other until around this time next year.  We need defense now, I'm not ready to concede some sort of "rebuilding" year.  If we wanted to wait we could've kept Anarumo, I expect he'll have the Colts D playing well in a year or two himself.  We've got one (1) proven impact player on our defense and his price keeps going up along with our starting WR's, TE, LB's, the list goes on...

 

Keep coming back to this, but they've drafted somewhat poorly, so now they have to overpay for FA's in order to compete with the teams that have been better at it. That likely played into Lou being fired as well.  

 

I'm sure those teams are carrying a contract or two they feel is overly generous, but that player fills a need or has stepped up for them in big moments & just might have something left in the tank.  Sample & Hubbard would be good examples of our own that are on that bubble.  Good teams are constantly turning over the roster at this level, they aren't trying to draft a starting defense for the upcoming season.

 

 

 

 

Exactly, I'll believe they can't afford X-Y-Z player when that money is spent.   Joe's called them out enough, we all know they can manage things several different ways and retain whoever they want with money left over.  On top of the franchise QB holding their feet to the fire they've got their financials all over the internet now. Their days of being able to drink champagne from the NFL tit & not be bothered are over.  Ain't none of them 'bout to starve either way - what's the worst case? They have to sell a few points in the team to float things for a while?  Maybe the family reunion is in Gatlinburg instead of the Greek Isles next year.  They'll be fine.

 

If ever there was a time to go all in, this would be it.  Frankly I'm not convinced they've got the stones for it.

 

The funny part is that the Bengals social media claimed the team was "all in" for the 2025 offseason. Three months from now, we'll hear Hobson or Tobin explain that it didn't refer to free agency and the draft but to fan events or something. 

 

[T-Dub]

3 minutes ago, sparky151 said:

 

 

 

 

The funny part is that the Bengals social media claimed the team was "all in" for the 2025 offseason. Three months from now, we'll hear Hobson or Tobin explain that it didn't refer to free agency and the draft but to fan events or something. 

 

 

 

Right, they have to budget possible injury settlements for the 2027 draft class & can't afford to fix the leaks in the stadium concourse. 

 

Hamilton County needs to deed them more parking lots.

[I_C_Deadpeople]

14 hours ago, sparky151 said:

 

They can certainly afford to re-sign Chase and Higgins whether they keep Pratt or not. The conversation about Pratt is that he wants to be traded. Let's give him what he wants. Since he should be cut anyway, even a 7th round pick for him is fine. 

 

The Bengals can easily afford to keep Burrow's requested 4 plus add a lot of outside talent. I did a test this afternoon where the Bengals cut the stiffs, and handled contracts ala Roseman. After re-signing the big 4, the team was 128 million under the cap for 2025. If the team wants to operate more conservatively with no void years, no restructurings, and relatively even cap hits across the years of a contract, they could do so and be about 70 mil under the cap after re-signing the big 4. 

 

 

The funny part is that the Bengals social media claimed the team was "all in" for the 2025 offseason. Three months from now, we'll hear Hobson or Tobin explain that it didn't refer to free agency and the draft but to fan events or something. 

 

And its not like what some teams like the Eagles do is a secret, it is all above board. It is a cap philosophy and nothing more. They dont cheat the cap or pay more cash in the long term than the cap, etc. It is just a method of leveraging the cap that our team does little of. Maybe they will do more when Mikey goes to the old folks home.

[sparky151]

What Mike Brown would call reckless spending, Howie Roseman calls "an interest free loan". He's in effect borrowing cap space from future seasons to spend now. It's a form of leverage and he's said he'll happily take 4 successful seasons even if the 5th is a teardown. He now has his 2nd Super Bowl ring. Mike Brown is 89 and will never get a Super Bowl ring. 

 

It's not hard to backload contracts so that a player can be cut midway through the deal with positive cap effects, ie the dead money hit is less than the salary saved.

 

Suppose we sign Tee to a 4 year 110 mil deal with a 25 mil signing bonus and 1 void year. We give him the vet min salary in year 1 and mildly increasing salaries for years 2-4. We guarantee the year 1 and 2 salaries. 

 

The cash flow to Tee would be 26 mil in year 1 (ie the same as a tag), 27 mil in year 2, 28 in year 3 and 29 in year 4. 

 

Tee would have 53 mil guaranteed.

 

The cap hits would be 5 mil per year (including the void year) for the signing bonus plus that year's salary. So 6, 32, 33, 34. Let's say his play falls off and the team wants out. After year 2, he could be released or traded for a gain of 18 mil in cap space (15 mil in remaining signing bonus minus 33 mil salary). If he's traded after year 1, it would be a gain of 12 mil in cap space plus whatever player or pick we could get for him. If he continues to play at a high level, the Bengals are getting a good player at a fair price, ie market value. If the team is hard up for cap space in a couple of season, they could restructure his salary to signing bonus and prorate it over more seasons. 

 

If the Bengals offered that contract, I think Tee would quickly sign it. IMO the team would benefit too and could move on to other business. It really shouldn't be hard to get players to accept fair value. The Bengals problem is they hate to pay what other teams would pay for a player and also aren't very good at player evaluation so their minds are always clouded by past failures. They lack conviction even with no brainer deals. 

 

[Dautcom08]

23 hours ago, kennethmw said:

Maybe the Change of having a DC that has been forced to develop players because his best ones left every four years will make a difference.  Anarumo Seemed to be more inclined to want veterans over Building what we drafted.  

 

And one that's had to identify talent through the recruiting process.

[|BlackJesus|]

6 hours ago, sparky151 said:

The Bengals problem is they hate to pay what other teams would pay for a player 

 

They also hate to pay early when the player is cheaper and like to squeeze out their contract before an extension.

 

Tee and Ja'Marr will cost a combined 10+ million more per year this off-season than they would have last.

 

The Eagles in contrast, extend their stars at the first chance. 

[UncleEarl]

20 hours ago, BlackJesus said:

 

They also hate to pay early when the player is cheaper and like to squeeze out their contract before an extension.

 

Tee and Ja'Marr will cost a combined 10+ million more per year this off-season than they would have last.

 

The Eagles in contrast, extend their stars at the first chance. 

 

The Eagles also hit the jackpot in the draft last summer with Mitchell and DeJean.  Cheap young talent allows you to afford to pay your stars.