Carson?

[New Jersey Bengal]

[b][i]I know that in 2005 Carson was the best QB in the NFL. Yes he has had injuries but so have many other QB's and they have come back and played great football. I have always liked Carson and think he has a lot of guts and I do believe that he can return to his prior form. If his elbow is the problem he should have surgery. I cannot believe that his arm is half of what it was without an injury being in the equation. Hopefully he returns to form and leads us to where we want to go.[/i][/b]

[bengalsfan850]

the main problem with carson is the record. if it was like 09 where we weren't even getting 200 yards a game but still winning there would be no complaints in my corner

[bengals8580]

I think its because we have a horrible offensive line and very inconsistent receiving. You never know what kind of route TO and Chad will run, lazy, incorrect?

[Squirrlnutz]

CP has been making questionable decisions and has been relatively inaccurate (post 08) considering 05-07. I think most would agree with that.

Reasons? Injuries (knee, elbow, hand), Offensive line, WR flux, Scheme. I think all of these things have played a role.

In my opinion CP still has the physical tools to play QB at a high level though his decision making seems to have declined over the years. I would like to see him run a different system before we blacklist the guy. The the way he breaks down film with the coaches, the reads, the audibles, the half-time adjustments, these things are shaping the way CP sees the field.

I hope he gets the opportunity to work wipe the slate clean, work in a new scheme and get back some of that All-Pro form we used to see. That and some new talent along the OL.

[-GoBengals-]

[quote name='Squirrlnutz' timestamp='1288840646' post='937161']
CP has been making questionable decisions and has been relatively inaccurate (post 08) considering 05-07. I think most would agree with that.

Reasons? Injuries (knee, elbow, hand), Offensive line, WR flux, Scheme. I think all of these things have played a role.

In my opinion CP still has the physical tools to play QB at a high level though his decision making seems to have declined over the years. I would like to see him run a different system before we blacklist the guy. The the way he breaks down film with the coaches, the reads, the audibles, the half-time adjustments, these things are shaping the way CP sees the field.

I hope he gets the opportunity to work wipe the slate clean, work in a new scheme and get back some of that All-Pro form we used to see. That and some new talent along the OL.
[/quote]

i dont know what the hell youre watching, honestly..

the scheme changed due to the line. how can you not see that the line is 99% of the issue and has been for 2.4 years?

in the last 7 games and two seasons, palmer has had a torn thumb ligiment/sprained thumb, a broken nose, a torn elbow, and been top 9-12 in QB hits...

imagine that.. 12th in hits on the QB with the qb having new footwork and two new short passing options most all routes are short outs and slants, and STILL getting hit in the top 1/3rd of the league.

you want to blame injuries? scheme? you cant be serious.

the guy has been getting murdered for over two years in that pathetic attempt at a pocket..

and WR's are tops in drops (that rhymes) a few games ago we were 8th in the NFL in dropped passes.. i cant imagine thats gotten much better..

the scheme changed cause the line sucks
the line sucks because the line sucks
palmer keeps getting injured cause the line sucks
WR are dropping passes cause they are assholes, and palmer is forcing things cause the line sucks

how can it even be argued any other way.. the oline has played about 4 total decent quarters of football this year...

it seems just bitter hatred for bob forces the "scheme" response, and general dislike for palmer gives the decision making one, and i dunno being stoned or not paying attention gets the rest...

while his "decision making" isnt perfect, he is often forcing things to try to make a play happen, sure as hell cant count on time in the pocket, a WR actually catching the ball if he has even run the right route, etc..

wtf would you do? take sack after sack?

[|Bunghole|]

[quote name='Squirrlnutz' timestamp='1288840646' post='937161']
CP has been making questionable decisions and has been relatively inaccurate (post 08) considering 05-07. I think most would agree with that.

Reasons? Injuries (knee, elbow, hand), Offensive line, WR flux, Scheme. I think all of these things have played a role.

In my opinion CP still has the physical tools to play QB at a high level though his decision making seems to have declined over the years. I would like to see him run a different system before we blacklist the guy. The the way he breaks down film with the coaches, the reads, the audibles, the half-time adjustments, these things are shaping the way CP sees the field.

I hope he gets the opportunity to work wipe the slate clean, work in a new scheme and get back some of that All-Pro form we used to see. That and some new talent along the OL.
[/quote]

I agree, and ye gods, can we ever set the "elbow" reason to rest? IT ISN'T HIS FUCKING ELBOW!!

OK, I feel better now.

The offensive failures are partially on him, partially on play calling, partially on formerly reliable players like Chad, currently on unreliable players like TO, a function of uneven oline play, inability to run the football, penalties, bad special teams play, craptastic tackling on defense, no pass rush to speak of, inability to convert 3rd downs.....wait, what was the question again?

[-GoBengals-]

[quote name='Bunghole' timestamp='1288841830' post='937164']
I agree, and ye gods, can we ever set the "elbow" reason to rest? IT ISN'T HIS FUCKING ELBOW!!

OK, I feel better now.

The offensive failures are partially on him, partially on play calling, partially on formerly reliable players like Chad, currently on unreliable players like TO, a function of uneven oline play, inability to run the football, penalties, bad special teams play, craptastic tackling on defense, no pass rush to speak of, inability to convert 3rd downs.....wait, what was the question again?
[/quote]

please explain the playclling.

i love this one, since none of us really know what the play called was, who the check downs and what order they were, if palmer audibled or not, fake audibled or not, if the WR(s) ran the correct route, if the blocks held, and so on....

is every play that wasnt successful a bad call? so theres no responsability on anyone elses part?

this is a horseshit complaint that seems to only come from the barely paying attention crowd...

a very small amount of fans are evaluation much other than the 2-3 players involved in the play, QB, RB, WR or any combination of those..

we had SEVERAL people say everything TE or slot WR goes in motion its a run.. "EVERYTIME, LOOK IT UP!"

so i did, i posted the results that it was roughly 53% run and 47% pass over the two games i posted..

we had people saying for YEARS its run run pass, everytime!!! , joe reedy posted the stats that its 50/50% run on 1st, 50/50 run on 2nd and was something like 60/40 pass/run on 3rd..

we had people say he is so predictable, and some article that was posted around showed the plays at damn near 51/49%, like above, which is, in fact, the complete opposite of predictable.

the o-line and LB's arent a sexy scape goat so its ignored.. majority of fans just want heads to roll when they dont get what they expected, they certainly arent going to bother sobbering up, and evaluating how the game actually went, what killed drives, what didnt, etc.. why would they? they are just casual fans who want to complain..

i litterally heard it, on the radio, fan called in about palmer and said "i watch the paly over and over, i cant figure out how you under throw a guy that badly, it has to be the elbow, its time to draft a new QB, it has to be the elbow he is done"

referring to the pass deep to TO in the carolina game? i think where he got DRILLED from both sides and the DE who beat whitworth was pulling on his throwing arms shoulder pad as he threw..

but you know.. the "fan" "watched it over and over and cant figure it out"

its frustrating as hell that the people who seems to pay the least attention and seem to base opinions on multi year grudges, seem to have the loudest voice.

it makes this place not worth running, why spend all the time money effort etc on a place where people dont care enough to watch or pay enough attention to whats going on and then will spend hours barking about the opinions they have after being drunk or high watching a football game at a bar with some pals...

i dont get it... there is just no logic there...

[T-Dub]

If the scheme changed because the line sucks, and I agree it mostly does, yet the line continues to suck.. At that point the new scheme can be considered a failure. Which is about what you'd expect when your game plan shows your players you have no faith in them. That doesn't seem like very good coaching, to me.

Royally fucking up the damn-near perfect mechanics of your all-pro QB does not seem like the proper response to the problem. Going into a shotgun in every short yardage situation does nothing to improve your offensive line.

I mean, that is the objective, right? Improving the offensive line?

It strikes me as a fundamentally flawed way of looking at the problem. Do we stop throwing to Gresham because he dropped a bunch of passes? We haven't connected on many deep balls, maybe we should stop trying. Or we could keep working at it until there is either an improvement or the weak link is identified and replaced.

"I give up" is not a scheme.

[|Bunghole|]

[quote name='GoBengals' timestamp='1288842766' post='937165']
please explain the playclling.

this is a horseshit complaint that seems to only come from the barely paying attention crowd...


[/quote]

Well,you'll never catch me going on and on about that whole "I knew it was going to be a run" type deal...it isn't about a fan knowing or not what play is being called, etc but I've been watching football long enough and am comfortable enough in my own skin to say that one of the things that we don't do (as evidenced by Whitworth's comments after the Miami game) is adjust well to the adjustments defenses make against us. Its almost like we keep trying to fit a square peg into a round hole despite what is right in front of the offense.

Another thing that's been bothering me is this:


[quote name='T-Dub' timestamp='1288843274' post='937166']
Going into a shotgun in every short yardage situation does nothing to improve your offensive line.

[/quote]
I know that they don't do this on "every" third and short, but we do this way too often. What happened to that run-blocking? We can't run on 3rd and 2 anymore?

Look Ryan I'm not making bizarre horseshit complaints and I don't pretend to know exactly what the play is going to be. But there's been too many instances of little things like this that just drive me crazy. Lack of red zone production. Calling fade routes in the end zone to Chad when you have bigger guys like Gresham and TO that are better suited to such plays. Choosing to throw the ball into the flat on 1st and 13 when you're inside your own 5 yard line instead of running the ball to allow your QB a little more space on the ensuing downs.

And if you re-read my post, I am not claiming that playcalling is the [i]only[/i] or even the biggest problem with what ails this team...but it sure as shit is an issue sometimes.

[Bengals1181]

Carson's not playing perfect, but the majority of the issues are wrong routes and dropped balls.



The INT against Miami is a perfect example. According to Brat the 2nd option ran the wrong route, so he tried to make something happen to TO and TO doesn't finish his route because he saw the oncoming safety and was afraid to get hit.

Another great example is the Atlanta game. In the first half Chad had 2 drops, a wrong route, and quit on a play. They score 3 points. Chad plays much better in the second half, they put up 23 points as an offense.


Carson's not playing perfect, but his WR's are taking a great completion percentage of probably 64-65% and turning it into the lackluster 60% or whatever it is.



There are far bigger issues than Carson Palmer on this team.

[Hooky]

If somebody starts just one more thread on this topic, we may come up with the answer and can pass it on to Marvin. The first 50 threads were unsuccessful.

[fluhartz]

[quote name='Hooky' timestamp='1288880271' post='937234']
If somebody starts just one more thread on this topic, we may come up with the answer and can pass it on to Marvin. The first 50 threads were unsuccessful.
[/quote]

LOL.... no shit

[-Dan_Bengals_FL-]

[quote name='GoBengals' timestamp='1288842766' post='937165']
please explain the playclling.

i love this one, since none of us really know what the play called was, who the check downs and what order they were, if palmer audibled or not, fake audibled or not, if the WR(s) ran the correct route, if the blocks held, and so on....

is every play that wasnt successful a bad call? so theres no responsability on anyone elses part?

this is a horseshit complaint that seems to only come from the barely paying attention crowd...

a very small amount of fans are evaluation much other than the 2-3 players involved in the play, QB, RB, WR or any combination of those..

we had SEVERAL people say everything TE or slot WR goes in motion its a run.. "EVERYTIME, LOOK IT UP!"

so i did, i posted the results that it was roughly 53% run and 47% pass over the two games i posted..

we had people saying for YEARS its run run pass, everytime!!! , joe reedy posted the stats that its 50/50% run on 1st, 50/50 run on 2nd and was something like 60/40 pass/run on 3rd..

we had people say he is so predictable, and some article that was posted around showed the plays at damn near 51/49%, like above, which is, in fact, the complete opposite of predictable.

the o-line and LB's arent a sexy scape goat so its ignored.. majority of fans just want heads to roll when they dont get what they expected, they certainly arent going to bother sobbering up, and evaluating how the game actually went, what killed drives, what didnt, etc.. why would they? they are just casual fans who want to complain..

i litterally heard it, on the radio, fan called in about palmer and said "i watch the paly over and over, i cant figure out how you under throw a guy that badly, it has to be the elbow, its time to draft a new QB, it has to be the elbow he is done"

referring to the pass deep to TO in the carolina game? i think where he got DRILLED from both sides and the DE who beat whitworth was pulling on his throwing arms shoulder pad as he threw..

but you know.. the "fan" "watched it over and over and cant figure it out"

its frustrating as hell that the people who seems to pay the least attention and seem to base opinions on multi year grudges, seem to have the loudest voice.

it makes this place not worth running, why spend all the time money effort etc on a place where people dont care enough to watch or pay enough attention to whats going on and then will spend hours barking about the opinions they have after being drunk or high watching a football game at a bar with some pals...

i dont get it... there is just no logic there...
[/quote]

testify.

[img]http://images.memegenerator.net/Pedo-Bear-From-Beyond/ImageMacro/1789801/TO-YOUNG-TO-TALK-TO-YOUNG-TO-TESTIFY.jpg[/img]

[aside]: I found the above picture humorous so I posted while looking up images for testify. Especially since too is incorrectly spelled as to.[/aside]

[Jason]

I think a LOT of "Carson's problems" have to do with the WRs. It just seems to me that FAR more often than not when he throws the ball to Shipley it seems to be right where it needs to be and Ship catches it. Is that because Ship is running the right routes and the right depths? Hmmmmm.

I would love to see TO re-signed. I think if you give him a full offseason with Carson, they will light it up. I also think Chad needs to start coming to OTAs. It would only help.

[Squirrlnutz]

[quote name='GoBengals' timestamp='1288841670' post='937163']
i dont know what the hell youre watching, honestly..

the scheme changed due to the line. how can you not see that the line is [b]99%[/b] of the issue and has been for 2.4 years?

[color="#FF0000"]Go, 99% can't possibly be accurate when you account for the innumerable amount of balls the DBs and LBs have gotten their hands on over the past 3 years. I agree that the line is a big problem, I listed it as a reason for his lack of success in the post you replied too, but to blame poor decision making and forced balls on entirely on the OL is a mistake.[/color]

in the last 7 games and two seasons, palmer has had a torn thumb ligiment/sprained thumb, a broken nose, a torn elbow, and been top 9-12 in QB hits...

imagine that.. 12th in hits on the QB with the qb having new footwork and two new short passing options most all routes are short outs and slants, and STILL getting hit in the top 1/3rd of the league.

[b]you want to blame injuries? scheme? you cant be serious.[/b]

[color="#FF0000"]1. Hits are part of the game. Sometimes QBs get hit, fucking leveled, as they step into a 65 yarder for a TD...thats not necessarily a negative stat. Obviously we want to reduce the number of times he's hit but your implying...no telling...me that being 12th in the league in hits somehow keeps us from being a productive offense. 7 of the 14 teams that have given up as many or more QB hits than us have at least a .500 record. Only KC and Indy have actually given up less sacks than us. There is more to the problem than just OL and to ignore that is foolish.
2. Blame? I listed 4 reasons I believe CP isn't playing well and didn't claim any one was more of a reason than any other one. I didn't say that the scheme IS the reason for his failures, only that I believe it plays a part (and IMO a large part in the miscommunication/timing with the WRs) and that I would like to get to see him work in a new scheme.[/color]

the guy has been getting murdered for over two years in that pathetic attempt at a pocket..

and WR's are tops in drops (that rhymes) a few games ago we were 8th in the NFL in dropped passes.. i cant imagine thats gotten much better..

the scheme changed cause the line sucks
the line sucks because the line sucks
palmer keeps getting injured cause the line sucks
WR are dropping passes cause they are assholes, and palmer is forcing things cause the line sucks

how can it even be argued any other way.. the oline has played about 4 total decent quarters of football this year...

it seems just bitter hatred for bob forces the "scheme" response, and general dislike for palmer gives the decision making one, and i dunno being stoned or not paying attention gets the rest...

while his "decision making" isnt perfect, he is often forcing things to try to make a play happen, sure as hell cant count on time in the pocket, a WR actually catching the ball if he has even run the right route, etc..

[b]wtf would you do? take sack after sack?[/b]

[color="#FF0000"]Well actually yes, we have plenty of sacks to give. I would prefer CP take 1-3 more sacks per game waiting out the 9 route than throw the ball to the hands of a DB because he's trying to get it off since he doesn't trust the line. [/color]
[/quote]

Again with the "bitter hatred for Bob." You go out of your way to force this shit into conversations. Can you answer these two questions...in your world, is it remotely possible that someone exists who could do a better job of structuring this offense with the current talent than Bob? Is it your position that Bob is doing the absolute most that any human could do given the position coaches, talent, and execution?

I don't hate Bob, I was impressed with how we improved from 08-09...but the offense has had similar problems (No deep balls, poor redzone production, poor 3rd down %, poor ypc) for 4 years now. How many different OL, RBs, WRs have seen playing time since 06? I don't understand how you can't sorta want something different...just for the sake of difference? Go back to DeSean Jackson v Jerome Simpson. Brat and ML both said that D Jak didn't fit the role of WR in their offense because of his size and experience and Jerome was a better prototype for the X spot. Aren't you the least bit curious to see how small-speedster WRs could work with Palmer getting the ball out to them in space? Isn't there the possibility that we could be doing more with what we have but aren't because we're trying to fit pegs into specific holes as opposed to building the holes around the pegs?

Since 06 we've drafted 2 lineman in the top 2 rounds and a total of 5 in 5 years including two this year (rnd 5,7). How do you rectify our glaring aversion to drafting quality lineman with your stance that our offensive line is 99% of the reason our offense sucks?

[bengaled]

[quote name='Jason' timestamp='1288886922' post='937269']
I think a LOT of "Carson's problems" have to do with the WRs. It just seems to me that FAR more often than not when he throws the ball to Shipley it seems to be right where it needs to be and Ship catches it. Is that because Ship is running the right routes and the right depths? Hmmmmm.

I would love to see TO re-signed. I think if you give him a full offseason with Carson, they will light it up. I also think Chad needs to start coming to OTAs. It would only help.
[/quote]

shipley is virtually always in single coverage. most of the balls coming his way are 10-15 yrd passes, which are much easier to complete. shipley's job often involves finding a hole in the zone and setting up there, often making him more of a fixed target than the two wides. i'd believe all these reasons are factors.

[Squirrlnutz]

Bump, for Go

[JBandJoeyV]

[quote name='Squirrlnutz' timestamp='1288971849' post='937501']
Bump, for Go
[/quote]

He doesnt think that Brat, or Marvin, or Mike brown are to blame at all.

He only blames players, and then hell he wont even blame carson for anything.

So the 4 most important people to this offense, the GM (mike brown), the HC (Marvin) the OC
(Brat) and the QB (Carson) and not a single one of those 4 deserve ANY blame whatsoever
for the offense not producing and putting up points.


According to Go, pretty much most the blame is the oline. But the GM/HC/OC get no blame
for either 1. not getting good enough personel or 2. not coaching them up enough to be
successful?


Its just amazing.

[bengaled]

[quote name='CJandTO' timestamp='1288972462' post='937506']
He doesnt think that Brat, or Marvin, or Mike brown are to blame at all.

He only blames players, and then hell he wont even blame carson for anything.

So the 4 most important people to this offense, the GM (mike brown), the HC (Marvin) the OC
(Brat) and the QB (Carson) and not a single one of those 4 deserve ANY blame whatsoever
for the offense not producing and putting up points.


According to Go, pretty much most the blame is the oline. But the GM/HC/OC get no blame
for either 1. not getting good enough personel or 2. not coaching them up enough to be
successful?


Its just amazing.
[/quote]


you forgot to mention the assistant head coach/OL coach who also always gets a pass.

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='bengaled' timestamp='1288988809' post='937573']
you forgot to mention the assistant head coach/OL coach who also always gets a pass.
[/quote]


he's not blameless, but how much magic do you expect?

His guys consist of 1 1st rounder who showed up out of shape, a 2nd rounder, a 3rd round journeyman, a 4th rounder, a 7th rounder, an over the hill guard, and 3 undrafted former practice squad players.


I think he's doing fine all things considered.

[claptonrocks]

[quote name='bengaled' timestamp='1288988809' post='937573']
you forgot to mention the assistant head coach/OL coach who also always gets a pass.
[/quote]

So who do you think could take that bunch and turn them into something worth being proud of?
Go thru the list of these guys...
Its a sorry mess and you know it.

[bengaled]

[quote name='claptonrocks' timestamp='1288989958' post='937584']
So who do you think could take that bunch and turn them into something worth being proud of?
Go thru the list of these guys...
Its a sorry mess and you know it.
[/quote]

oh, i'd probably start with that fellow from boston town. put it this way....i hope like hell willie keeps working with these guys as a mentor. he'll be able to teach them a lot of things they don't already know.