To Win or No to Win

[Tigris]

Right now we hold the #2 pick overall (someone please correct me if I am wrong).

Buffalo, Detroit, and Carolina all have the same records as we do and we all know Buffalo has to finish with a worse record than us to pick before us based on head to head.

So, what's best for this team? Do they lose out and get a higher draft pick or win out and get something to work with for next season?

Personally, I root for them to win every game even when we're dead and gone from playoff contention, but in the back of my mind I'm always thinking high draft pick. Even a friend that was watching the game with me said, "There's goes the #1 pick," when we scored. I questioned his allegiance immediately like any other friend should do but admittingly, I was thinking the same thing.

To win or not to win? What do you think?

[oldschooler]

Right now we have the #3 pick. Detriot and Carolina are ahead of us.


Anyway, it's easy. Win. Winning makes my Sundays better.
And the players could use some winning. I hope they can
a lot of the coaches regardless.

There are no guarantees from the draft. And it is 135 days away.

[sois]

Always win. 6-10.

[Bengals1181]

Always win. Plus, I'd like to be in the 3-6 range. Much easier to make trades.

[NYbengals]

YOU PLAY TO WIN THE GAME!



And i don't care if Jesus Christ himself was entering the draft in april, i want the bengals to beat the shit out of the the stealers; and win out for that matter.


Higher draft position just makes loosing less shitty.

[Since 87]

I think most teams try to avoid the #1 pick. It's an absurd amount of money tied up in somebody who'd just as unlikely to pan out as the rest of the guys in the top 10. And nobody will trade you for it.

[AmishBengalFan]

[quote name='Tigris' timestamp='1291737517' post='948724']
Right now we hold the #2 pick overall (someone please correct me if I am wrong).

Buffalo, Detroit, and Carolina all have the same records as we do and we all know Buffalo has to finish with a worse record than us to pick before us based on head to head.[/quote]
FYI - head-to-head does not factor into draft order. The order is based on:

1 - Non-playoff teams pick before playoff teams

For non-playoff teams
2 - Worse records pick before better records
3 - Worse strengths of schedule pick before better strengths of schedule (the theory is if you and I finished with the same record but you played a softer schedule than me, you're probably a team that needs more help than I do).
4 - Coin flip

For playoff teams
2 - Wild Card losers pick before Divisional losers pick before Conference runners-up pick before Super Bowl runner-up picks before Super Bowl winner
3 - Worse records pick before better records
4 - Worse strengths of schedule pick before better strengths of schedule
5 - Coin flip

[gatorclaws]

I always cheer and hope for us to win, but it doesn't always bother me if we lose and get a better draft pick

[Tigris]

*Not*

I kind of butchered the title but I think the idea remains.

[Tigris]

I didn't know that, Amish. Thanks.

[Vol_Bengal]

[quote name='sois' timestamp='1291737718' post='948727']
Always win. 6-10.
[/quote]

This. Period. Don't ever go on the field with the intention of losing...

[Squirrlnutz]

Always win.

A. We still play the Steelers, Ravens and Browns. I don't care if the #1 draft pick is the greatest sure-fire nfl prospect in the history of pro sports prospects. I would rather go 6-10 every fucking year beating our entire division than ever have the #1 overall pick again.

B. Take a look at the history of the NFL draft. Better draft picks guarantee nothing by every metric you can come up with except higher salaries. Good talent evaluation with the 32nd pick beats bad talent evaluation with the 1st pick every time.

C. The damage a missed/bust/unlucky 1st round draft pick creates to an organization decreases exponentially (trust me I did the math )with every pick in the top 10. The further we are away from #1 the less costly it will be to our future success if he sucks or gets hurt.



Now on another level. The #1 overall pick will make for some great debate and heated exchanges on this board. I'm sure it would be a lot of fun to talk about it for months. But, to me, none of that comes close to the feeling I get, even last week, on the edge of my seat as were trying to close out a victory. Our record, our non-existent playoff chances completely disappear when Dunlap comes away with a huge sack on 3rd down to get us the ball back and give us a shot to win. You can't replace these in the moment emotions that make the game worth watching with weeks of speculation about how a crap-shoot draft pick might turn the franchise around.

[bengalsdave985]

Lose, Lose, and Lose some more. I'm not talking tanking on purpose but there is no point in winning any of the remaining games, they need monumental change on a lot of fronts and i dont want Mikey getting any silly ideas if they pull the typical "Bengals Bounce" and win some meaningless games

Plus with the possible lock out if the CBA is agreed upon there will be a rookie wage scale so the 1st pick wouldnt be like it used to be. Andrew Luck is the clear #1 pick so if they were to have it you either get the highest rated QB in the last 20 years or you trade it b/c someone will want him and you get a bunch of picks to help all the other needs.

[Squirrlnutz]

[quote name='bengalsdave985' timestamp='1291741572' post='948752']
Lose, Lose, and Lose some more. I'm not talking tanking on purpose but there is no point in winning any of the remaining games, they need monumental change on a lot of fronts and i dont want Mikey getting any silly ideas if they pull the typical "Bengals Bounce" and win some meaningless games

Plus with the possible lock out if the CBA is agreed upon [b]there will be a rookie wage scale so the 1st pick wouldnt be like it used to be.[/b] Andrew Luck is the clear #1 pick so if they were to have it you either get the highest rated QB in the last 20 years or you trade it b/c someone will want him and you get a bunch of picks to help all the other needs.
[/quote]

First, its not set in stone that there will be one. Second, I think you're wrong if you believe they are going to roll back salaries enormously. Perhaps a little, but the wage scale will likely just lock the yearly increases in place. High probability the #1 pick is still getting 50-60 million in guarantees this year. The scale will mean that in 2012 the #1 pick is only allowed to get x% more than this years.

[sois]

[quote name='bengalsdave985' timestamp='1291741572' post='948752']
Lose, Lose, and Lose some more. I'm not talking tanking on purpose but there is no point in winning any of the remaining games, they need monumental change on a lot of fronts and [b]i dont want Mikey getting any silly ideas if they pull the typical "Bengals Bounce" and win some meaningless games[/b]

Plus with the possible lock out if the CBA is agreed upon there will be a rookie wage scale so the 1st pick wouldnt be like it used to be. Andrew Luck is the clear #1 pick so if they were to have it you either get the highest rated QB in the last 20 years or you trade it b/c someone will want him and you get a bunch of picks to help all the other needs.
[/quote]

1. You would think Mikey would have learned from previous DCB's.
2. I agree with you about the new CBA, it might not be so terrible to get the #1 pick. I still want to win though.

[bengalsdave985]

[quote name='Squirrlnutz' timestamp='1291741897' post='948755']
First, its not set in stone that there will be one. Second, I think you're wrong if you believe they are going to roll back salaries enormously. Perhaps a little, but the wage scale will likely just lock the yearly increases in place. High probability the #1 pick is still getting 50-60 million in guarantees this year. The scale will mean that in 2012 the #1 pick is only allowed to get x% more than this years.
[/quote]
Not set in stone but it might as well be, both the owners and the NFLPA want it so what would lead anyone to believe it wouldnt happen. I would probably put it 2nd on the priority list behind revenue sharing and ahead of an 18 game schedule. Everything I have read has stated there would be a significant drop in 1st year player salaries. I imagine it will be similar to the NBA where everyone in the 1st round signs the same deal length wise and the pay is slotted based on where you are picked. This should also cut down or eliminate hold outs since a player can only make X amount of dollars. It will also change the game in the sense that it will make last years/this years rookie contracts meaningless when it comes to negotiations.

I just cant see a scenario where a new CBA is agreed on and this is not a part of it from the start.

[fluhartz]

[quote name='NYbengals' timestamp='1291737760' post='948729']
YOU PLAY TO WIN THE GAME!



[b]And i don't care if Jesus Christ himself was entering the draft in april, i want the bengals to beat the shit out of the the stealers; and win out for that matter.[/b]


Higher draft position just makes loosing less shitty.
[/quote]



didn't Denver already draft him last year?

and I agree... win every game we can, the higher pick guarantees nothing except a bigger contract....

[Squirrlnutz]

[quote name='bengalsdave985' timestamp='1291743276' post='948762']
Not set in stone but it might as well be, both the owners and the NFLPA want it so what would lead anyone to believe it wouldnt happen. I would probably put it 2nd on the priority list behind revenue sharing and ahead of an 18 game schedule. [b]Everything I have read has stated there would be a significant drop in 1st year player salaries. I imagine it will be similar to the NBA where everyone in the 1st round signs the same deal length wise and the pay is slotted based on where you are picked. This should also cut down or eliminate hold outs since a player can only make X amount of dollars[/b]. It will also change the game in the sense that it will make last years/this years rookie contracts meaningless when it comes to negotiations.

I just cant see a scenario where a new CBA is agreed on and this is not a part of it from the start.
[/quote]


Really? Don't get me wrong I think thats exactly what needs to happen, but I hadn't read anything that lead me to believe it would. If you have some links share em. I've seen that the players don't want the numbers rolled back because leaving them where they are will force owners to pony up big bucks when quality vets are due a new contract because they can point to their accomplishments and compare it to, say Matt Stafford who made 50 mil and hasn't accomplished anything. As I understand it the rookie contracts, although outrageous, are making the owners spend money that the vet players believe they won't spend on their next deal if the numbers are suddenly reduced significantly.

[bengalsdave985]

No links and I could be completely wrong, just what I got from reading things a while ago, admittedly I havent read anything in a long time about it

[Cat]

[quote name='fluhartz' timestamp='1291744065' post='948764']
didn't Denver already draft him last year?
[/quote]



I don't care if we win another game this season - as long as we win the NEXT one!

[JC]

In the 1-6 area you generally get two very good quality players. I would hate to lose that, but I want to kick the shit out of the Steelers, Browns, and Ravens and go 4-2 in the division.

[mongo]

You always root for a win. One or two draft slots is nothing more than a lame reach around.

[BigDawgBengal]

At this point if we win or lose against the Chargers wont matter to me but I really want to beat the Steelers, Ravens and Browns.

[BBR]

[quote name='Squirrlnutz' timestamp='1291741897' post='948755']
The scale will mean that in 2012 the #1 pick is only allowed to get x% more than this years.
[/quote]


I'm not sure that will be the case. All that does is push the exact same problem they have currently out a bit further.

I can see the rookie cap being based on a percentage of the actual spending cap for the league and then divided up by position at some rate. That way, as the salary cap rises (and possibly lowers) the rookies will get the same percentage rather than an ever growing percentage of the wages like they do now.

[BBR]

[quote name='bengalsdave985' timestamp='1291743276' post='948762']
Not set in stone but it might as well be, both the owners and the NFLPA want it so what would lead anyone to believe it wouldnt happen. I would probably put it 2nd on the priority list behind revenue sharing and ahead of an 18 game schedule. Everything I have read has stated there would be a significant drop in 1st year player salaries. I imagine it will be similar to the NBA where everyone in the 1st round signs the same deal length wise and the pay is slotted based on where you are picked. This should also cut down or eliminate hold outs since a player can only make X amount of dollars. It will also change the game in the sense that it will make last years/this years rookie contracts meaningless when it comes to negotiations.

I just cant see a scenario where a new CBA is agreed on and this is not a part of it from the start.
[/quote]


From what I've read, the top players drafted will see a significant drop in salaries but the rookies will be the same amount when it is spread across all of them. That probably means the rookie salary will go up or all of the rookies after the 1st round will see slightly increasing amounts compared to previous years.