LOL (Dalton Arm Strength Article)

[JC]

[quote name='fredtoast' timestamp='1337793986' post='1132169']
Mike Brown supported Chad because he was the one bringing all the publicity to the team. Neither a QB nor a Head Coach can reign in a player when the owner backs him.

Brady couldn't control Moss either his last year in New England so I guess that makes him a pussy also, right? Brady was just lucky that the owner was not taking Moss's side.
[/quote]
Your on fire broha's. Carson is still cool and was a BA when he was here.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='fredtoast' timestamp='1337793986' post='1132169']
Mike Brown supported Chad because he was the one bringing all the publicity to the team. Neither a QB nor a Head Coach can reign in a player when the owner backs him.

Brady couldn't control Moss either during his last year in New England, so I guess that makes him a pussy also, right? Brady was just lucky that the owner was not taking Moss's side.
[/quote]

Winner Winner Chicken Dinner

[fredtoast]

[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1337734324' post='1132064']
IIRC didnt they have a losing record at the time we played them?
[/quote]

No. They were 4-3.

[Jeb]

[quote name='fredtoast' timestamp='1337793764' post='1132166']
You mean the year he finished 2nd in the league in TD passes, 4th in passing yards, and 6th in passer rating?

Yeah, he really sucked that year.

If he hadn't screwed up that XP snap against the Broncos in week 16 or missed that chip shot FG against the Steelers in week 17 we would have gone to the playoffs.
[/quote]...he got a lot of help from our receivers.

The point that I was trying to make is that he was rushed often in his throws that year and it showed in his accuracy on the ball. The same can be said about Dalton last year and how the coaches wanted him to get rid of it fast. This year will be his year to prove himself.

[fredtoast]

[quote name='Jeb' timestamp='1337795140' post='1132176']
...he got a lot of help from our receivers.

The point that I was trying to make is that he was rushed often in his throws that year and it showed in his accuracy on the ball. The same can be said about Dalton last year and how the coaches wanted him to get rid of it fast. This year will be his year to prove himself.
[/quote]

Palmer had a fantastic year in '06, and he got less help from his receivers because both TJ and Chris Henry missed 3 games in '06.

The biggest difference in our offense from '05 to '06 was that in addition to the WRs the O-line was decimated by injuries. Braham missed 13 games, Levi Jones missed 12 games, Bobbie Williams missed 3 games.

Considering the injuries we had in '06 I actually think carson had a better year than he did in '05.

[scharm]

[quote name='fredtoast' timestamp='1337793986' post='1132169']
Mike Brown supported Chad because he was the one bringing all the publicity to the team. Neither a QB nor a Head Coach can reign in a player when the owner backs him.

Brady couldn't control Moss either during his last year in New England, so I guess that makes him a pussy also, right? Brady was just lucky that the owner was not taking Moss's side.
[/quote]

NFL is filled with plenty of examples in which Coaches and Players made it work on the field and overcame the difficult personalities.

The GM's job is to provide talent. If I were a GM I'd have a major problem with a highly paid QB that tried to fly the excuse you are. Carson couldn't win because he had to throw to Chad? Sure, let's give him great guy Ron Dugans and I"m sure he'd be complaining about lack of talent.

The list of excuses for the people that don't get it done is always long. Some are valid but at the end of the day it didn't get done and in the case of Palmer he robbeb himself of any chance to prove people wrong. Mike Brown owns it all but so do the players and coaches from that time period.

[Tigris]

[quote name='fredtoast' timestamp='1337793986' post='1132169']
Mike Brown supported Chad because he was the one bringing all the publicity to the team. Neither a QB nor a Head Coach can reign in a player when the owner backs him.

Brady couldn't control Moss either during his last year in New England, so I guess that makes him a pussy also, right? Brady was just lucky that the owner was not taking Moss's side.
[/quote]

What did Moss do?

[Jeb]

[quote name='fredtoast' timestamp='1337796129' post='1132178']
Palmer had a fantastic year in '06, and he got less help from his receivers because both TJ and Chris Henry missed 3 games in '06.

The biggest difference in our offense from '05 to '06 was that in addition to the WRs the O-line was decimated by injuries. Braham missed 13 games, Levi Jones missed 12 games, Bobbie Williams missed 3 games.

Considering the injuries we had in '06 I actually think carson had a better year than he did in '05.
[/quote]...I disagree and I think the 'Gameday' threads of that year will prove my point.

[mongo]

[quote name='GoBengals' timestamp='1337701233' post='1131961']
...dalton under threw green a lot, and green made some mind blowing catches in the process...[/quote]

The long ball takes two to tango. Being on target means the ball has to be thrown at the right time, and stay in the air the right amount of time, in order to hit a target that has to be moving at the right speed. Dalton over threw Green a few times too. Unless the argument is a quarterback's ability to throw the ball 40 yards at all, it's all about two players being on the exact same page.

[quote]dalton made 2-3 throws that were great throws, but he cant make all of the throws, and its pointed out pretty clearly and they stopped having WR's run those routes in the playbook all together. cosell even broke down from one game to the next one wekk, where the same play we ran twice and dalton wiffed by 10 yards on a wide open receiver, the next game the same exact play the WR who ran that route ran a different one but the rest of the play remained the same.[/quote]

Considering how exasperated the coaches were with Simpson running the wrong routes, I would really like to see what plays Cosell was talking about. Missing a receiver by ten yards sounds more likely the result of the two players not being on the same page, than arm deficiency. It also sounds just as possible the changed routes from one week to the next are the result of Simpson running the correct route the next week... It's the trouble with outside guys analyzing plays. He can't know what was screwed up, or what was corrected/changed. If possible, please find the name of the show. I want to find the video in question.

[quote]i will take winning over losing all day every day.... but the top 3 defense all year was a bigger factor than anything. and green is a hell of a lot better than chad(who is taking pay cuts to keep a roster spot) ....[/quote]

That's a little misleading. We were a top 3 defense in the first half of the season, and then tumbled once guys like Leon and Rey got hurt.

[quote]Dalton is the opposite of carson, and he fits marvins wants perfectly. but we got waxed by a 3rd string rookie qb from north carolina 31-10, and in that palyers first start, 20-19.[/quote]

The Texans also had a better defense, better passing offense, better running offense, and a quarterback who wasn't coming off a stomach bug that saw him lose 6 pounds. (I'd also throw in a better offensive line, but that's an opinion I can't back up statistically).

[quote]we lost to every single team with a decent defense and a winning record... did not beat a single team with a winning record..[/quote]

I'm a scoring defense kind of guy. As such, we did lose to some good defenses. We lost two games to the #1 scoring defense (Pittsburgh), one game to the #2 scoring defense (San Fransisco), two games to the #3 scoring defense (Baltimore), and essentially two games to the #4 scoring defense (Houston)... We played 7 games against the best defenses in the NFL and lost. Tough break, but a meat grinder of a schedule.

However, we beat the #5 scoring defense twice (Cleveland), the #7 scoring defense (Seattle), and the #8 scoring defense (Tennessee, who as others pointed out, had a winning record last year).

[quote]top 3-5 defense most of the year(ended up top 10 in every category i think) + didnt beat a single team with a winning record.[/quote]

#8 scoring defense. Not bad by any means, but not elite either.

[quote]we were 18th in points scored on offense..

how am i the only one concerned about the lack of scoring?[/quote]

Some see 18th in scoring. Others see the 4th best passer rating by a rookie in the last 10 years (following NFL.com's standard for qualifying rookies. Newton, Matt Ryan, and Big Ben are the only ones to do better). Some also see a rookie QB, rookie WR, rookie OC, a new offense, inconsistent #2 and #3 WRs, a bad running game, bad offensive line (my opinion. I think free agency and the draft back that up, though), the lockout, and all the other chaos of the Bengals off-season, and saw promise from wildly exceeded expectations.

18th in scoring needs improvement. 20th in passing needs improvement. 19th in rushing needs lots of improvement, too...

[quote]i dont like that marvin seems to be focused on what worked in 2000, the game has changed, i dont see is getting much better than 9-7 and out in the first round of the playoffs without getting better on offense..
[/quote]

I don't agree with your assessment of Marvin at all. I think Gruden is totally in the mold of a modern, dynamic offensive coordinator. I think Zimmer hits opponents with different looks, and blitzes that are quite contemporary. I also think a look at the draft and free agency seems to point to improved line play, better running, more weapons at receiver, and a beastly front four rotation. This all seems in line with the modern NFL... It's not like he's re-hiring Bresnahan to run vanilla defense like he has Pro-Bowlers across the defense, chasing a bruising running back to pound the rock 30 times a game, or telling Gruden to limit Dalton to under 20 passing attempts a game (all of which to the running back).

I think a lot of people see promise, understand improvement is needed, and feel it will happen.

Do the people who are concerned not believe improvement can be made in a second season, with a full offseason, free agency pickups, and a solid draft?

[Jason]

[quote name='fredtoast' timestamp='1337796129' post='1132178']
Palmer had a fantastic year in '06, and he got less help from his receivers because both TJ and Chris Henry missed 3 games in '06.

The biggest difference in our offense from '05 to '06 was that in addition to the WRs the O-line was decimated by injuries. Braham missed 13 games, Levi Jones missed 12 games, Bobbie Williams missed 3 games.

Considering the injuries we had in '06 I actually think carson had a better year than he did in '05.
[/quote]

Palmer had a decent year in 2006, (and yes, if you consider the injury he was coming off of, it was a really good year) and he put up a ton of yards. But from an accuracy standpoint, and an "eyeball" standpoint, he was not the same guy. In 2005 he completed almost 70% of his passes, and had a lot of games that year where he was 70% or better. He hasn't been close to that since. And not only did he have a great completion % in 2005, but his ball placement was outstanding.

[SocalBengalEd]

Watch the Titans game, Dalton had plenty of arm strength.

[fredtoast]

[quote name='Tigris' timestamp='1337796863' post='1132184']
What did Moss do?
[/quote]

Ran his mouth about his contract and shit until they traded him just three games into the season.

NE front office does not put up with distractions like Mike Brown does.

[T-Dub]

Carson's stats from 2005 & 2006 are very close, except for throwing twice as many picks in '06.

[bengaled]

[quote name='Le Tigre' timestamp='1337613687' post='1131771']
As the old adage goes: speak enough lies often enough, they become the truth perceptionally.


[/quote]

yeah, that's a pretty sad statement on society, isn't it? it makes you wonder why it's such a heavy lift to seek out the truth instead?

that falls hand in hand with another adage... "money talks", or said another, more pertinent way...citizens united.

[bengaled]

[quote name='texbengal' timestamp='1337614700' post='1131778']
I don't think he's an elite physical talent, but he's got enough physical ability... Plus, the leadership, smarts and competitiveness he has in spades. And I think we will see him, with a full off-season, being more accurate this fall.

I'll take all of that; bottom line for me, he wins.
[/quote]

well said, tex. there's a whole host of intangibles that factor into being an above average QB. the ones you mentioned above, plus instincts, weigh just as heavily into the equation as arm strength does. i don't think andy should be considered in the grouping of those with the strongest of arms, but it's not like it rears it's head as a major concern, either. he can chuck it plenty deep enough, and it's just a matter of timing, IMO.

[bearcat7777]

[b] Quarterback Ball Velocity at NFL Combine 2008-2012[/b]


[url="http://blogs.ourlads.com/2012/03/12/quarterback-ball-velocity-at-nfl-combine-2008-2012/"]http://blogs.ourlads.com/2012/03/12/quarterback-ball-velocity-at-nfl-combine-2008-2012/[/url]


[color=#242668][font=Arial][size=3]Andy Dalton, TCU 56[/size][/font][/color]
[color=#242668][font=Arial][size=3]Cam Newton, Auburn 56[/size][/font][/color]
[color=#242668][font=Arial][size=3]Jake Locker, Washington 54[/size][/font][/color]
[color=#242668][font=Arial][size=3]Christian Ponder, Florida St 51[/size][/font][/color]
[color=#242668][font=Arial][size=3]Josh Freeman, Kansas State 57[/size][/font][/color]
[color=#242668][font=Arial][size=3]Joe Flacco, Delaware 55[/size][/font][/color]

[color=#242668][font=Arial][size=3]These were some of the velocity measurements at the combine for those quarterbacks. A lot of quarterbacks with arms similar to Andy's.[/size][/font][/color]

[T-Dub]

I think all of this "arm strength" crap is just a reaction to him following Palmer, who had an exceptionally strong arm. There aren't many QB's with an arm like that. Unfortunately there are quite a few with more heart, and although they don't measure that at the combine I know which quality I'd rather have in my QB. Basically I don't think Dalton's arm is "weak" so much as "not as strong as the last guy's" - which would be true of damn near any QB in the league.

[sois]

Man there is a lot of people still ass-injured about Palmer. I love Carson still. Daltone is cool though, even though he is ugly.

[MichaelWeston]

[quote name='bearcat7777' timestamp='1337823867' post='1132269']
[b] Quarterback Ball Velocity at NFL Combine 2008-2012[/b]


[url="http://blogs.ourlads.com/2012/03/12/quarterback-ball-velocity-at-nfl-combine-2008-2012/"]http://blogs.ourlads...bine-2008-2012/[/url]


[color=#242668][font=Arial][size=3]Andy Dalton, TCU 56[/size][/font][/color]
[color=#242668][font=Arial][size=3]Cam Newton, Auburn 56[/size][/font][/color]
[color=#242668][font=Arial][size=3]Jake Locker, Washington 54[/size][/font][/color]
[color=#242668][font=Arial][size=3]Christian Ponder, Florida St 51[/size][/font][/color]
[color=#242668][font=Arial][size=3]Josh Freeman, Kansas State 57[/size][/font][/color]
[color=#242668][font=Arial][size=3]Joe Flacco, Delaware 55[/size][/font][/color]

[color=#242668][font=Arial][size=3]These were some of the velocity measurements at the combine for those quarterbacks. A lot of quarterbacks with arms similar to Andy's.[/size][/font][/color]
[/quote]

I have a hard time giving that much credibility after it shows Cam and Andy with the same Velocity on their throws. That does not pass the eyeball test. Cam has a cannon.

[Jeb]

This is the first off-season the Dalton gang has had in the NFL. This is huge for them.

It affects everything, ...timing, ...learning the system better, ...getting to know the strengths and weaknesses of the guys next to you, ...it's huge.

[MichaelWeston]

[quote name='MichaelWeston' timestamp='1337828647' post='1132286']
I have a hard time giving that much credibility after it shows Cam and Andy with the same Velocity on their throws. That does not pass the eyeball test. Cam has a cannon.
[/quote]

Colt McCoy was also a 56. Maybe there is a difference between long ball strength and short ball velocity? I don't know.

[Jeb]

[quote name='MichaelWeston' timestamp='1337873266' post='1132358']
Colt McCoy was also a 56. Maybe there is a difference between long ball strength and short ball velocity? I don't know.
[/quote] ...dude, ...you're talking to yourself.

It's official, ...the off-season sucks!

[bearcat7777]

A lot of times when Bill Walsh was looking at quarterbacks, he would have the quarterbacks take something off their throws. Walsh wanted accuracy and a more catch able ball than a high velocity ball. Walsh wanted the receiver hit in stride to maximize the yards after catch.

So maybe Andy takes more off his throws during games than Cam. but if he wants to he can gun it in there.


Or maybe some eyeballs need glasses.

[Tigris]

Starting every game as a rookie QB and taking your team to the playoffs is huge no matter what team you play for. I would say there's only one QB in the NFL who can throw as far as anyone and put it right on the spot almost every time... and the dude didn't even play last year. Andy isn't Peyton Manning but he sure does do one heck of a job out there. I love watching the guy.

[Bartledoo]

[quote name='JC' timestamp='1337640587' post='1131867']
Here's a 50 yard pass

[url="http://www.nfl.com/videos/cincinnati-bengals/09000d5d8239e4ea/QB-Dalton-to-WR-Green-43-yd-pass-TD"]http://www.nfl.com/v...n-43-yd-pass-TD[/url]

I see no problem..
[/quote]
That made me cry a little *tear*. Bottom line, he's good under pressure, strong arm or not. We just have to wait and see how he's developed during the off season. He's put on some muscle, he's working on his foot work, there's really not much more you could ask for from a (rookie) qb going into his second season.