Jamie_B Posted January 7, 2013 Report Share Posted January 7, 2013 [quote name='mullichicken25' timestamp='1357592987' post='1206077'] bingo everyone seems to think you can place blame on one player/position...but its just not that simple the four things you listed are the biggest issues on this offense and things can only move forward when all of them are addressed in one way or another [/quote] I actually agree with that statement, thing is though we arent replacing the QB so check through that and the interior line and WR experience can only happen with giving those guys snaps.... Thus ... RB... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akiliMVP Posted January 7, 2013 Report Share Posted January 7, 2013 We're not drafting "depth" for the oline in the 1st round. I like what we have there. They'll be better next season. Re-sign Smith and we have 8 good players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBandJoeyV Posted January 7, 2013 Report Share Posted January 7, 2013 [quote name='T-Dub' timestamp='1357591393' post='1206064'] Fuck that, if they go offense in the 1st round I want OL. There is ZERO depth anywhere on the line and although it's likely they tag Andre, keeping him long-term is far from certain. Even if they do, Whitworth isn't getting any younger and we're one injury away from Dennis fuckin' Roland. It's high time they make the OL a priority instead of waiting to try and patch it up with duct tape and crossed fingers. I don't see the sense in dropping a 2nd-round pick on a "change of pace" back. In fact I think "change of pace" is ridiculous as it amounts to a RB that isn't considered well-rounded enough to start... but if they are going to draft someone who's not even expected to be on the field that much BY DESIGN, it should be in the later rounds. Personally I would prefer RB's who are all either potential starters or capable every-down backups at worst, but apparently fans are enamored with backs that break a 50+ yard touchdown once a season no matter how little they contribute overall. Like I said before, if you want a WR at RB, line Sanu or Hawkins up in the backfield. You know who was a "home run threat"? Adam Dunn. Couldn't run bases or play his position for shit, but he sure did hit home runs! It's the same mentality IMO. I would be just fine with BJGE, Peerman, and Herron going into next year. [/quote] I think you are misusing the term "change of pace back". I'm not speaking for everyone but let me tell you what I want and let me know what you think. I don't know much about the RB prospects this year but I want to draft a guy in the second round that is similar to a lesean McCoy or ray rice type back. Both 2nd round draft picks I believe. A guy that can come in right away and be a "change of pace" back right away just by brig a faster guy and a compliment to Ellis. Someone that gets 10-15 touches a game. For example McCoy had 155 carries as a rookie and 40 catches. 12 touches a game on average. Big play ability as well with a long run of 66 yards and a long catch of 45 yards. Similar for rice who had about 150 touches and big play flashes as well. Then depending on how 2013 goes you transition even more towards that young guy in his seco year and by 2015 he is your starter and hopefully on his way to being a top tier back. A lot easier said than done obviously. But that would be my idea. What would be wrong with that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akiliMVP Posted January 7, 2013 Report Share Posted January 7, 2013 [quote name='JBandJoeyV' timestamp='1357594737' post='1206104'] I think you are misusing the term "change of pace back". I'm not speaking for everyone but let me tell you what I want and let me know what you think. I don't know much about the RB prospects this year but I want to draft a guy in the second round that is similar to a lesean McCoy or ray rice type back. Both 2nd round draft picks I believe. A guy that can come in right away and be a "change of pace" back right away just by brig a faster guy and a compliment to Ellis. Someone that gets 10-15 touches a game. For example McCoy had 155 carries as a rookie and 40 catches. 12 touches a game on average. Big play ability as well with a long run of 66 yards and a long catch of 45 yards. Similar for rice who had about 150 touches and big play flashes as well. Then depending on how 2013 goes you transition even more towards that young guy in his seco year and by 2015 he is your starter and hopefully on his way to being a top tier back. A lot easier said than done obviously. But that would be my idea. What would be wrong with that? [/quote] Giovanni fn Bernard! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBandJoeyV Posted January 7, 2013 Report Share Posted January 7, 2013 [quote name='akiliMVP' timestamp='1357594895' post='1206108'] Giovanni fn Bernard! [/quote] I know nothing about him. Seems like he has a body type similar to McCoy. Has a long run of 68 and catch of 75 so has some explosiveness based on that alone. How fast is he? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bengals1181 Posted January 7, 2013 Report Share Posted January 7, 2013 [quote name='JBandJoeyV' timestamp='1357598376' post='1206158'] I know nothing about him. Seems like he has a body type similar to McCoy. Has a long run of 68 and catch of 75 so has some explosiveness based on that alone. How fast is he? [/quote] reminds me of Edgerin James. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akiliMVP Posted January 7, 2013 Report Share Posted January 7, 2013 [quote name='Bengals1181' timestamp='1357598729' post='1206166'] reminds me of Edgerin James. [/quote] I liken him to McCoy. Same body type. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBandJoeyV Posted January 7, 2013 Report Share Posted January 7, 2013 [quote name='akiliMVP' timestamp='1357599259' post='1206174'] I liken him to McCoy. Same body type. [/quote] Perfect. Where is he expected to go? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akiliMVP Posted January 7, 2013 Report Share Posted January 7, 2013 [quote name='JBandJoeyV' timestamp='1357598376' post='1206158'] I know nothing about him. Seems like he has a body type similar to McCoy. Has a long run of 68 and catch of 75 so has some explosiveness based on that alone. How fast is he? [/quote] Watch him vs NC state. Ridiculous. He is a 4.5 guy I'm guessing. Late 1 early 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBandJoeyV Posted January 7, 2013 Report Share Posted January 7, 2013 [quote name='akiliMVP' timestamp='1357599426' post='1206177'] Watch him vs NC state. Ridiculous. He is a 4.5 guy I'm guessing. Late 1 early 2 [/quote] 21 might be a stretch but if he falls to the Oakland pick I'd be all for it. Obviously a lot can change between now and then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-Dub Posted January 8, 2013 Report Share Posted January 8, 2013 Basically I think speed is being emphasized at the expense of the many (IMO more important) skills that go into playing the position. I'm tired of the constantly-injured speed backs that can't block, break tackles, etc. As for not "wasting" a 1st round pick on depth: Today's depth is tomorrow's starter. Not talking about a career backup if they're drafted that high. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBandJoeyV Posted January 8, 2013 Report Share Posted January 8, 2013 [quote name='T-Dub' timestamp='1357606081' post='1206215'] Basically I think speed is being emphasized at the expense of the many (IMO more important) skills that go into playing the position. I'm tired of the constantly-injured speed backs that can't block, break tackles, etc. As for not "wasting" a 1st round pick on depth: Today's depth is tomorrow's starter. Not talking about a career backup if they're drafted that high. [/quote] Will you respond directly to my long post I made...Im not asking for just a speed back. Todays depth=tomorrows starter is exactly my point. I want a guy thats going to be starting in 2014 or 15. I dont want a career back up nor do i just want a speed back that cant block, break tackles etc. I want an all around back that has better big play ability than BJGE. Hence the constant references to other 2nd round backs like Mccoy and Rice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bengaled Posted January 8, 2013 Report Share Posted January 8, 2013 [quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1357483071' post='1205306'] Missed the game since I didnt get home in time, but did record it. Sounds like its not worth watching. Oh and no Dalton is not the best we've had since Boomer. Palmer before his injuries was better, stop being bitter and be objective about that. Dalton still has some growing to do. [/quote] even if we are to believe what you say, what was the difference in the price for the two....in draft position....in salary.....in % of cap ramifications to the other personnel on the team? all those things matter. no matter any fucking justification you would try to make, andy dalton is the better investment. and for that matter, i don't want my team to EVER get into the position where they are taking the top player in the draft....not that the pussywhipped SOB turned out to be a top of the draft type of investment. give me an andy dalton every day of the week day, and i'll work thru his warts as he develops. he has the guts and the will to achieve a higher ceiling than that other guy. i can't stess the importance of that enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orange 'n Black Posted January 8, 2013 Report Share Posted January 8, 2013 [quote name='bengaled' timestamp='1357607859' post='1206218'] even if we are to believe what you say, what was the difference in the price for the two....in draft position....in salary.....in % of cap ramifications to the other personnel on the team? all those things matter. no matter any fucking justification you would try to make, andy dalton is the better investment. and for that matter, i don't want my team to EVER get into the position where they are taking the top player in the draft....not that the pussywhipped SOB turned out to be a top of the draft type of investment. give me an andy dalton every day of the week day, and i'll work thru his warts as he develops. he has the guts and the will to achieve a higher ceiling than that other guy. i can't stess the importance of that enough. [/quote] This... Carson Palmer coasted on talent, he was a shitty leader and quit on his team. Andy Dalton has the drive and leadership qualities to become a better pro than CP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Le Tigre Posted January 8, 2013 Report Share Posted January 8, 2013 Andy has the qualities to to exceed Norman as well. In many ways, already has...apples to apples. I saw the sainted Norman with my own eyes, live and in person, during his first two years here. He threw too damn hard, had zero touch on the ball, and could not spot an open receiver to save his life. It was his good fortune to have a much better running game back then..or he would have looked worse. He started to click in '86...after a lot of coaching. The Bengals led the AFC in offense that year. And that was his third season. He never even made the playoffs until two years later. I wish people would see with their own eyes, they have a very good QB now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|kennethmw| Posted January 8, 2013 Report Share Posted January 8, 2013 [quote name='Le Tigre' timestamp='1357614213' post='1206263'] Andy has the qualities to to exceed Norman as well. In many ways, already has...apples to apples. I saw the sainted Norman with my own eyes, live and in person, during his first two years here. He threw too damn hard, had zero touch on the ball, and could not spot an open receiver to save his life. It was his good fortune to have a much better running game back then..or he would have looked worse. He started to click in '86...after a lot of coaching. The Bengals led the AFC in offense that year. And that was his third season. He never even made the playoffs until two years later. I wish people would see with their own eyes, they have a very good QB now. [/quote] Ahhh, someone else that remembers the past. That's the early guy I remember. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-Dub Posted January 8, 2013 Report Share Posted January 8, 2013 [quote name='JBandJoeyV' timestamp='1357606170' post='1206216'] Todays depth=tomorrows starter is exactly my point. I want a guy thats going to be starting in 2014 or 15. I dont want a career back up nor do i just want a speed back that cant block, break tackles etc. I want an all around back that has better big play ability than BJGE. Hence the constant references to other 2nd round backs like Mccoy and Rice. [/quote] Ok that's more reasonable, but how do we know that guy isn't already on the roster? Being chosen in the 2nd round doesn't guarantee anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBandJoeyV Posted January 8, 2013 Report Share Posted January 8, 2013 [quote name='T-Dub' timestamp='1357616019' post='1206283'] Ok that's more reasonable, but how do we know that guy isn't already on the roster? Being chosen in the 2nd round doesn't guarantee anything. [/quote] I just dont see Herron, Peerman or Leonard as that guy. Leonard for obvious reasons. Peerman I like, but I think he is a ST guy I just dont think he is the playmaker I am looking for. Herron I just dont see being a stud either. I think we have some holes, but I dont think we have as many as most people do. Resign our defensive guys, draft a LB, sign a SS in FA (if it were my decision), and you can spend most the rest on fixing the offense. I think if you resign Andre you are pretty much set on the line with Whit, Boling, Cook, Z, and Smit. Backups all with starting experience with Collins, Wharton, and Robinson. QB we wont draft early, nor FB. I think if we want to improve our WR corps, we need a veteran that can come in and perform right away, not a high draft pick. What does that leave? A RB that can make game changing plays. I dont know who that is or if there is even one available, but if there is I'd be all for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texbengal Posted January 8, 2013 Report Share Posted January 8, 2013 [quote name='Le Tigre' timestamp='1357614213' post='1206263'] Andy has the qualities to to exceed Norman as well. In many ways, already has...apples to apples. I saw the sainted Norman with my own eyes, live and in person, during his first two years here. He threw too damn hard, had zero touch on the ball, and could not spot an open receiver to save his life. It was his good fortune to have a much better running game back then..or he would have looked worse. He started to click in '86...after a lot of coaching. The Bengals led the AFC in offense that year. And that was his third season. He never even made the playoffs until two years later. I wish people would see with their own eyes, they have a very good QB now. [/quote] Lol yeah, Boomer had prototypical size and arm, but he defined the term scatter-arm. When they drafted him out of Maryland, i shuddered because I thought he sucked and was way overrated-especially by himself. Sam Wyche was his savior; Boomer might have become the best play action faker I've seen. He and Eddie Brown made a lot of hay on that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sparky151 Posted January 8, 2013 Report Share Posted January 8, 2013 I'd like to see us draft a RB as the starter, making BJGE the shortyardage backup. We can probably get someone like Joseph Randle or Kenjon Barner with our own 2nd round pick, maybe even in the 3rd round. If Eddie Lacy comes out, he might be worth our first round pick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bengals1181 Posted January 8, 2013 Report Share Posted January 8, 2013 [quote name='JBandJoeyV' timestamp='1357618272' post='1206290'] I just dont see Herron, Peerman or Leonard as that guy. Leonard for obvious reasons. Peerman I like, but I think he is a ST guy I just dont think he is the playmaker I am looking for. Herron I just dont see being a stud either. I think we have some holes, but I dont think we have as many as most people do. Resign our defensive guys, draft a LB, sign a SS in FA (if it were my decision), and you can spend most the rest on fixing the offense. I think if you resign Andre you are pretty much set on the line with Whit, Boling, Cook, Z, and Smit. Backups all with starting experience with Collins, Wharton, and Robinson. QB we wont draft early, nor FB. I think if we want to improve our WR corps, we need a veteran that can come in and perform right away, not a high draft pick. What does that leave? A RB that can make game changing plays. I dont know who that is or if there is even one available, but if there is I'd be all for it. [/quote] I think Leonard and Scott will be the odd men out. Both are approaching 30 and are free agents. Leonard is great in the role he plays, but when you look at other teams, their 3rd string RB's, when they play on special teams, are usually returners, not blockers. Leonard's blocking role can be replaced by a LB, and they need to bring in a RB that can return kicks and punts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SocalBengalEd Posted January 8, 2013 Report Share Posted January 8, 2013 [quote name='sparky151' timestamp='1357629307' post='1206303'] I'd like to see us draft a RB as the starter, making BJGE the shortyardage backup. We can probably get someone like Joseph Randle or Kenjon Barner with our own 2nd round pick, maybe even in the 3rd round. If Eddie Lacy comes out, he might be worth our first round pick. [/quote] Barner is not that good. hes a product of the system at Oregon he doesnt have elite size or speed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bengals1181 Posted January 8, 2013 Report Share Posted January 8, 2013 [quote name='SocalBengalEd' timestamp='1357658049' post='1206334'] Barner is not that good. hes a product of the system at Oregon he doesnt have elite size or speed [/quote] doesn't have elite speed??? If his size listed is correct (which I suspect it isn't), he's bigger than ray rice was in college. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SocalBengalEd Posted January 8, 2013 Report Share Posted January 8, 2013 [quote name='Bengals1181' timestamp='1357658318' post='1206336'] doesn't have elite speed??? If his size listed is correct (which I suspect it isn't), he's bigger than ray rice was in college. [/quote] his size is nothing like Rice, or say a Martin, hes more like rb Mcknight from the Jets or even Scott. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VBurfict55 Posted January 8, 2013 Report Share Posted January 8, 2013 [quote name='SocalBengalEd' timestamp='1357661747' post='1206354'] his size is nothing like Rice, or say a Martin, hes more like rb Mcknight from the Jets or even Scott. [/quote] I kinda like Barner and do because he is the complete opposite of BJGE. Yes he looks great based on the system, but he could be our return man and also used in the offense if Gruden uses him right. I believe Benard would be a better option if we can get him at 37 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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