Dunlap or MJ

[Madieu Superstar]

All things considered, it's very wide open as to whether the Bengals can afford to extend both Michael Johnson and Carlos Dunlap. Obviously, at this moment it would be more expensive to extend MJ because of Dunlap's injuries/inconsistency. Having said that, at this moment in time, all things considered, if you had to choose one of them to extend, who would you go with? Would you choose the more expensive, more consistent MJ, or the cheaper, enigmatic, probable higher-upside Dunlap?

[JC]

I know I'll eventaully be in the minority on this one, but I think Carlos is much more disruptive as a pass rusher and can take over games.  Being a LE, he is consistently in the periphrial vision of the QB, which leads to less sacks.  MJ is a heck of a player and would be extremely tough to replace as he is solid against both the pass and the run.  I still like the playmaking ability and the flat out ability to dominate that Carlos brings when healthy.

 

I hope we don't have to lose either..

[alleycat]

Personally, I'd take Dunlap, as I think he has a greater impact when in the game.

 

That said, I don't think we'll have to choose.  First off, Dunlap's injury history should give him some incentive to try to get a new deal done ASAP.   He won't be getting paid that much this year and a new deal will bring him more money now.

 

Secondly, I really think the defense here, and especially the D-Line, has a collective identity and mentality, and I don't think their motto of letting every guy "feed" and playing as a 8-9 guy unit is just PR.  

 

Finally, I'm going to venture that if these guys are smart, and I think they are, they realize that they have an all-world DT in Geno who is basically the guy who puts the meat on everyone else's table.

 

I think MJ gets done before the summer for that reason too.

 

The only arguments against guys wanting to stay would be:

 

1) They feel like they are being held back by Zim's "play the run first" approach (as suggested by J Thorton's tweet last year), and

 

2) They aren't happy with the possible Bengals current offers, which might reflect the tighter post-CBA FA market which, like Andre, might just seem much lower than they had thought and so they decide to test the system (my nightmare scenario with Dunlap is that it plays out like Andre, in that the team diminishes his market value a bit because of his injury history, and he tests -  but this time we lose him).

[HaydenM]

After Geno, Dunlap makes more of an impact than any other player on our defense when he's in the game.

[Bengals1181]

Dunlap has the higher ceiling, but right now you have to go with MJ.  MJ is more consistent, durable and it can't be ignored that Dunlap gets to go up against RT's while MJ has to go up against LT's.  So MJ is more consistent against better competition.

 

 

 

There's no reason both can't be re-signed though.

[Elijah15]

Dunlap

[Tigris]

I'll take the guy who never gets hurt. MJ is almost like our old Justin Smith. Don't let him walk.

[SocalBengalEd]

Carlos upside is crazy gotta keep him.

[B.A.B.]

MJ is better than Dunlap. Has proven more. Has done more. I don't want to pay people based on "potential." That's how losers lose.

[bengaled]

i'd hate to lose either, and think the money's there to sign both. dunlap's easily the more disruptive player and the one i'd be forced to keep, if i had to make such a horrible decision.

[Squirrlnutz]

If I had chose one it would be MJ, I value his consistency over Dunlap's potential. Plus I don't think he's done getting better.

[texbengal]

A year ago I'd have taken Dunlap, by a lot. This year, I'd still take him but it's a lot closer. MJ was much more consistent and he played a lot of snaps and played hurt (assuming he was, at times).

I thought Dunlap would break out last year, but he didn't, obviously. He still makes game-changing plays at times - he just needs to bring it more frequently.

I'd love to keep both guys, but I can see both sides on this one.

[eva4ben-gal]

If I had chose one it would be MJ, I value his consistency over Dunlap's potential. Plus I don't think he's done getting better.

This. I see a lot if you guys qualifying your opinion of Dunlap with "when he's in the game". Well MJ93 is always in the game and on the whole has a much bigger impact on this defense. So if the choice had to be made today it's easy for me.

[scharm]

MJ all day.   This is just a variation of the old issue on potential vs. production. 

 

Based on what I know now.   MJ has shown the ability and determination that leads to more consistent production.    Carlos has flashed potential that gets you believing there could be better production.

 

Not a famous line, but during one of the broadcasts Lapham indicated that Dunlap's father basically stated you have to keep your foot on Carlos's throat to get his best or something like that.   Also said something crazy like Carlos played against AJ Green in an all star game.   Carlos's team couldn't shut AJ down so they put Carlos on him and he shut him down and he was a D-linemen at the time.   Crazy.

 

Until I could get comfortable with Carlos being on the field enough to out produce MJ, I would approach MJ about a contract first. 

[alleycat]

I disagree with all of those talking about Potential vs. Production.  

 

Are we taking sacks and tackles here?  Those are nice, but the conversation has nothing to with that.  

 

I think the conversation is about IMPACT, and I'm not basing my judgement of Carlos on his potential to have impact.  Sure, he gets hurt now and then, but making the comparison between him and the healthier MJ I'd still take Carlos.  Because Carlos has a much greater affect on the game NOW.

 

It's like Geno.  Geno had 12 sacks and that was nice, but his overall disruption is what's most important.  Hell, a good number of the sacks coming from the LDE position are a direct product of Geno and Carlos absolutely crushing the pocket.  

 

Want proof?  Wallace Dingleberry, who had something like 3 sacks lifetime and was cut by two teams had a half dozen sacks here in limited playing time.  

 

No, if I had to choose I'd keep Geno and Dunlap and happily churn and burn through whatever speed rushers we had to from the LE position.  They can have their sacks.

[Randle P McMurphy]

I'd go with MJ.  I believe both have some upside to them yet although Dunlap's ceiling might be a tad higher

he just seems to have a hard time staying on the field.  Also, If you get MJ done now, it'll free up even more

money to get the others resigned.  I'm pretty sure his new contract would be less of a cap hit this year than

his franchise tender of 11.5 million.  

[SocalBengalEd]

MJ is better than Dunlap. Has proven more. Has done more. I don't want to pay people based on "potential." That's how losers lose.

Dunlap has 20 career sacks in 3 years along with 4 force fumbles just from last year, and he constantly pressures the quarterback , MJ has 23 in four years, Dunlap impacts the game far more greater then MJ does . There is no way the Bengals can have three high salary guys on the dline so its gonna be Atkins and either MJ or Dunlap that will be here next year.

[SocalBengalEd]

And keep in mind Dunlap is only 24 , and MJ is 26 which is also still young.

[|kennethmw|]

Well, one guy played 80% of the snaps and one guy played 55%.  I'll take the 80%er.  Hopefully, though, we'll be able to keep both.

[Bgal]

Dunlap is certainly more interesting/fun to watch. I guess I'll just trust the coaches to figure out who is more important. I feel like you have to try and sign both though.

[Randle P McMurphy]

Dunlap has 20 career sacks in 3 years along with 4 force fumbles just from last year, and he constantly pressures the quarterback , MJ has 23 in four years, Dunlap impacts the game far more greater then MJ does . There is no way the Bengals can have three high salary guys on the dline so its gonna be Atkins and either MJ or Dunlap that will be here next year.

 

All 3 MIGHT not have to be high salary guys though.  I googled NFL 2013 free agent salaries for DE's.

 

Elvis Dumervil (5 years, 26million)

 

Ricky Jean Francois (4 years, 22 million)

 

Cliff Avril (2 years, 13 million)

 

Mike DeVito (3 years, 12.6 million)

 

William Hayes (3 years, 10.5 million)

 

I'm sure there's a few more that could be added to that list!

 

To be honest I couldn't even tell you who DeVito and Hayes are!  lol

 

Here's the link for the breakdown as far as signing bonuses etc...

 

http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2013/4/8/4141530/2013-nfl-free-agents-defensive-ends

 

If we could resign Michael Johnson to a long term deal, say in the ball park of

of Dumervil's contract (5 yrs. 26 million) or even a tad more say (5 yrs. 30 million)

That'd be pretty cheap!  Paul Kruger got 5 yrs. 40 million from the Stains.  Stains

overpaid for Kruger though.  That could be a sticking point but the Browns HAVE

to overpay for talent.  We don't necessarily have too any more.  Of course that 

doesn't mean MJ wouldn't walk for more money elsewhere.

[sparky151]

 

All 3 MIGHT not have to be high salary guys though.  I googled NFL 2013 free agent salaries for DE's.

 

Elvis Dumervil (5 years, 26million)

 

Ricky Jean Francois (4 years, 22 million)

 

Cliff Avril (2 years, 13 million)

 

Mike DeVito (3 years, 12.6 million)

 

William Hayes (3 years, 10.5 million)

 

I'm sure there's a few more that could be added to that list!

 

To be honest I couldn't even tell you who DeVito and Hayes are!  lol

 

Here's the link for the breakdown as far as signing bonuses etc...

 

http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2013/4/8/4141530/2013-nfl-free-agents-defensive-ends

 

If we could resign Michael Johnson to a long term deal, say in the ball park of

of Dumervil's contract (5 yrs. 26 million) or even a tad more say (5 yrs. 30 million)

That'd be pretty cheap!  Paul Kruger got 5 yrs. 40 million from the Stains.  Stains

overpaid for Kruger though.  That could be a sticking point but the Browns HAVE

to overpay for talent.  We don't necessarily have too any more.  Of course that 

doesn't mean MJ wouldn't walk for more money elsewhere.

We might be able to sign MJ for an 8 mil average but no way he'd take Dumervil's deal. He'd be better off playing 1 year for the guaranteed 11.2 mil then taking his chances again in free agency. He'd get a 20% raise to over 13 mil if tagged again. Worst case if he had a career ending injury, he'd still have the 11 mil in hand, which is more than Dumervil is getting this season.

[scharm]

Dunlap will go the way of Andre

[Oldcat]

Dumerville only got 5 years/26 million because his idiot former agent screwed up the 8 million dollar a year deal and didn't return it until too late.  I don't think anyone will be looking at that as a benchmark.

[alleycat]

Dumerville only got 5 years/26 million because his idiot former agent screwed up the 8 million dollar a year deal and didn't return it until too late.  I don't think anyone will be looking at that as a benchmark.

 

Oh, but perhaps they should.  His old deal was cut under a an old reality.  The new deal was cut under the new one, where, by all accounts, the market has significantly tightened.  Andre found out the hard way.  That alone, along with the preponderance of evidence of middling deals elsewhere, might be an inducement to get guys to sign somewhat more realistic deals.