What the hell is happening in Ferguson?

[|SF2|]

 

 

I think you're entirely missing the point here. IF he stole the cigars, which is still up for debate because the store owner said that they didnt report that it came from a customer, and the video I posted shows him paying for them so we likely will never know the whole story about what happened in the convenience store, but back to the point, it doesnt matter it's not at all relevant to whether or not the kid deserved to die and if there was at all any possibility of using non-lethal force to contain him. 

It is certainly convenient of you to decide that "we likely will never know the whole story about what happened in the convenience store."  Taking that out of the discussion and pretending it doesn't matter is a pretty biased strategy.

 

Did the kid deserve to die?  Of course not.  However, that has nothing to do with the law and facts on the ground.  If he did have his hands up and the cop basically executed him, then the cop should go to prison.

 

If Brown, turned and rushed a police officer who had his service weapon drawn, then I would consider it more suicide by law enforcement.   He was 18 years old, old enough to know that charging a police officer who is pointing a gun at him would probably result in his life ending (If that is what actually happened)

[Jamie_B]

It is certainly convenient of you to decide that "we likely will never know the whole story about what happened in the convenience store."  Taking that out of the discussion and pretending it doesn't matter is a pretty biased strategy.

 

Did the kid deserve to die?  Of course not.  However, that has nothing to do with the law and facts on the ground.  If he did have his hands up and the cop basically executed him, then the cop should go to prison.

 

If Brown, turned and rushed a police officer who had his service weapon drawn, then I would consider it more suicide by law enforcement.   He was 18 years old, old enough to know that charging a police officer who is pointing a gun at him would probably result in his life ending (If that is what actually happened)

 

 

I dont think it's biased at all, the fact of the matter is that there are multiple stories going on about the incident and none of them are really relevant to whether or not lethal force was necessary.

[|SF2|]

 

 

I dont think it's biased at all, the fact of the matter is that there are multiple stories going on about the incident and none of them are really relevant to whether or not lethal force was necessary.

 

Ahh but it is relevant to the narrative that is being pushed by one side of the discussion to justify the protests.   When I first heard the story, I was told that an unarmed 18 year old black "kid" who was on his way to college was gunned down by a white police officer for simply walking down the middle of the street.  Furthermore, I was told that Brown simply had his hands in the air and the police officer basically executed him on the street.

 

As more facts come in, it is quite obvious one side had an agenda and that agenda was to fuel the protests and riots and they did so by selling a lie and a false image of the type of man Brown really was.

[Jamie_B]

 

Ahh but it is relevant to the narrative that is being pushed by one side of the discussion to justify the protests.   When I first heard the story, I was told that an unarmed 18 year old black "kid" who was on his way to college was gunned down by a white police officer for simply walking down the middle of the street.  Furthermore, I was told that Brown simply had his hands in the air and the police officer basically executed him on the street.

 

As more facts come in, it is quite obvious one side had an agenda and that agenda was to fuel the protests and riots and they did so by selling a lie and a false image of the type of man Brown really was.

 

 

I disagree. The type of man Brown was or was not, because again there is other evidence showing something entirely different here as to whether or not he stole the cigs, is still entirely irrelevant. The shooting and whether or not it was even necessary is at question the type of person Brown may or may not have been is entirely irrelevant, IF he stole the cigs it doesnt matter, stealing cigs is not a case for the death penalty at all. Further it is not a case for the the response to the protests being overbearing. (A discussion in and of itself). If we want to discuss whether or not Brown ran at the officer, something which is still hearsay, and whether or not the officer had time to make a decision about the need for lethal response, that's a fair discussion, what type of man Brown was is entirely irrelevant.  

 

In fact John Oliver says it best here.

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUdHIatS36A

[MichaelWeston]

This is not any kind of indictment on this particular case or saying anyone did anything right or wrong...

As some of you know I am a full time Firefighter for a fairly busy department...

I have an honest question:

How many on this forum or in this thread I should say have been in a life or death event or even perceived life or death situation where the next few moments or decisions they make could possibly cost them their lives or the lives of people around them?

I know what it is like to make decisions under this duress... I work in a lower income part of town... I have seen enough stabbings and shootings to last me a lifetime... I have seen enough drug related crime... I have been in enough fires to never care if I see one again... All that is unlikely though because I am only halfway through my career.

Just a little insight into what can happen.... This happened to me two days ago... Relatively minor but can give you a little insight as to what you think you see and what is really there in a high stress moment:

We pulled up on a relatively small house with a ton of smoke showing and fire showing from the entire north end of the house. I grab the hose line off the back of the truck with my lieutenant and we go to the north side and I peak in the window(well known to older firefighters to peak in a room to see the layout before you apply water because once you do you can't see anything!). As I look in I see what appears to be the second floor collapsed and fire on the first and second floor. I look up on the outside really quick to see what the second floor looks like and I see fire showing from the window. I put water through the window and knock down most of the room then take the hose line and knock down what was showing through the window. Then we make an interior attack where I knock down the rest of the fire.....but I keep looking for the stairs and can't find them. Turns out the floor I thought was collapsed was the joists for the attic and the second story window was a burnt out vent. The roof for this house was a little tall, but I wasn't seeing what I really thought I was seeing....

My point is this, I am not saying what is going on in Ferguson is justified, right, wrong, or whatever. I am saying that none of us.... Even the media wasnt there in the moment and perceived what was happening, but we all want to be outraged and play arm chair quarterbacks.

For all I know these cops could be total fuck sticks that could deserve the death penalty.

What I will say is lumping the deaths of several people in police related incidents over the past few months all together is a huge mistake. They have to be treated individually or the witch hunt will continue....

 

Great post, We don't know what happened. We had a pre-existing narrative and tried to put this story into it. We still don't know the facts. 

[MichaelWeston]

 

 

I think you're entirely missing the point here. IF he stole the cigars, which is still up for debate because the store owner said that they didnt report that it came from a customer, and the video I posted shows him paying for them so we likely will never know the whole story about what happened in the convenience store, but back to the point, it doesnt matter it's not at all relevant to whether or not the kid deserved to die and if there was at all any possibility of using non-lethal force to contain him. 

 

You want the cop to not shoot a 250lb guy running at him who already attacked him and reportedly went after his gun?

[Jamie_B]

 

You want the cop to not shoot a 250lb guy running at him who already attacked him and reportedly went after his gun?

 

 

Hearsay

 

But further even if true, we still can discuss whether or not it was necessary, if you dont think a taser can bring down a 250lb man I would beg to differ.

[MichaelWeston]

It is certainly convenient of you to decide that "we likely will never know the whole story about what happened in the convenience store."  Taking that out of the discussion and pretending it doesn't matter is a pretty biased strategy.

 

Did the kid deserve to die?  Of course not.  However, that has nothing to do with the law and facts on the ground.  If he did have his hands up and the cop basically executed him, then the cop should go to prison.

 

If Brown, turned and rushed a police officer who had his service weapon drawn, then I would consider it more suicide by law enforcement.   He was 18 years old, old enough to know that charging a police officer who is pointing a gun at him would probably result in his life ending (If that is what actually happened)

 

Completely agree with this. If the cop shot him in the back as he was running away the cop is going to prison. If Brown rushed the cop after attacking him, the cop is well within his rights to shoot him. 

 

What we shouldn't want is the cop to go to prison because of slavery and segregation and racist cops doing horrible things elsewhere. 

[MichaelWeston]

 

 

Hearsay

 

But further even if true, we still can discuss whether or not it was necessary, if you dont think a taser can bring down a 250lb man I would beg to differ.

 

If its a 250 lb man not in restraints rushing you, you better be sure you get it right. 

[MichaelWeston]

 

Ahh but it is relevant to the narrative that is being pushed by one side of the discussion to justify the protests.   When I first heard the story, I was told that an unarmed 18 year old black "kid" who was on his way to college was gunned down by a white police officer for simply walking down the middle of the street.  Furthermore, I was told that Brown simply had his hands in the air and the police officer basically executed him on the street.

 

As more facts come in, it is quite obvious one side had an agenda and that agenda was to fuel the protests and riots and they did so by selling a lie and a false image of the type of man Brown really was.

 

This is completely true. And then blamed the cops for the protests. 

[Jamie_B]

 

If its a 250 lb man not in restraints rushing you, you better be sure you get it right. 

 

 

Isnt that the question though? Whether or not the cop had time to make that decision. 

 

EVERYTHING else is irrelevant.

[ValleyBengal]

While I believe the action against an unarmed teen is unjust, I find the reaction on both sides is over the top. And for sure, the looting doesn't help the cause. How is your community going to recover if businesses don't want to be in your community?

 

Anyway, here on the local Detroit news we've been getting some pretty good inside reports from our own Charlie LeDuff who was on the ground in Ferguson. He is in his own way a staunch human rights advocator, but even he condemns some of the diminishing of the cause by some of the bad apples who only look to take advantage of the lawless situation. At any rate, his report is definitely worth a look:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rManrSKF3i4&feature=youtu.be

[MichaelWeston]

 

 

I disagree. The type of man Brown was or was not, because again there is other evidence showing something entirely different here as to whether or not he stole the cigs, is still entirely irrelevant. The shooting and whether or not it was even necessary is at question the type of person Brown may or may not have been is entirely irrelevant, IF he stole the cigs it doesnt matter, stealing cigs is not a case for the death penalty at all. Further it is not a case for the the response to the protests being overbearing. (A discussion in and of itself). If we want to discuss whether or not Brown ran at the officer, something which is still hearsay, and whether or not the officer had time to make a decision about the need for lethal response, that's a fair discussion, what type of man Brown was is entirely irrelevant.  

 

In fact John Oliver says it best here.

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUdHIatS36A

 

What type of man is relevant when trying to consider what story you believe. Do you believe that a man who just attacked a store clerk and reportedly stole cigars was now just casually walking down the street and this vicious police officer, who I have not heard of any other prior issues (although there may have been some), who chose to be a police officer and protect and serve in a community that he already knew was 70% african american, now is just gunning down guys from behind suddenly. 

 

Both stories could be true. It's very possible this guy is a huge racist and just snapped or has a history of it. But when it's a he said he said character has to play a role. 

 

 

Isnt that the question though? Whether or not the cop had time to make that decision. 

 

EVERYTHING else is irrelevant.

 

Agree...but it becomes relevant when we try to figure out whose story is accurate. 

[The PatternMaster]

The Day Ferguson Cops Were Caught in a Bloody Lie

 

 

Police in Ferguson, Missouri, once charged a man with destruction of property for bleeding on their uniforms while four of them allegedly beat him.

 

“On and/or about the 20th day of Sept. 20, 2009 at or near 222 S. Florissant within the corporate limits of Ferguson, Missouri, the above named defendant did then and there unlawfully commit the offense of ‘property damage’ to wit did transfer blood to the uniform,” reads the charge sheet.

 

The address is the headquarters of the Ferguson Police Department, where a 52-year-old welder named Henry Davis was taken in the predawn hours on that date. He had been arrested for an outstanding warrant that proved to actually be for another man of the same surname, but a different middle name and Social Security number.

 

“I said, ‘I told you guys it wasn’t me,’” Davis later testified.

 

He recalled the booking officer saying, “We have a problem.”

 

The booking officer had no other reason to hold Davis, who ended up in Ferguson only because he missed the exit for St. Charles and then pulled off the highway because the rain was so heavy he could not see to drive. The cop who had pulled up behind him must have run his license plate and assumed he was that other Henry Davis. Davis said the cop approached his vehicle, grabbed his cellphone from his hand, cuffed him and placed him in the back seat of the patrol car, without a word of explanation.

 

But the booking officer was not ready just to let Davis go, and proceeded to escort him to a one-man cell that already had a man in it asleep on the lone bunk. Davis says that he asked the officer if he could at least have one of the sleeping mats that were stacked nearby.

”He said I wasn’t getting one,” Davis said. Davis balked at being a second man in a one-man cell.

 

“Because it’s 3 in the morning,” he later testified. “Who going to sleep on a cement floor?”

 

The booking officer summoned a number of fellow cops. One opened the cell door while another suddenly charged, propelling Davis inside and slamming him against the back wall.

 

“I told the police officers there that I didn’t do nothing, ‘Why is you guys doing this to me?’” Davis testified. “They said, ‘OK, just lay on the ground and put your hands behind your back.’”

 

Davis said he complied and that a female officer straddled and then handcuffed him. Two other officers crowded into the cell.

“They started hitting me,” he testified. “I was getting hit and I just covered up.”

 

The other two stepped out and the female officer allegedly lifted Davis’ head as the cop who had initially pushed him into the cell reappeared.

 

“He ran in and kicked me in the head,” Davis recalled. “I almost passed out at that point… Paramedics came… They said it was too much blood, I had to go to the hospital.”

 

A patrol car took the bleeding Davis to a nearby emergency room. He refused treatment, demanding somebody first take his picture. 

“I wanted a witness and proof of what they done to me,” Davis said.

 

He was driven back to the jail, where he was held for several days before he posted $1,500 bond on four counts of “property damage.” Police Officer John Beaird had signed complaints swearing on pain of perjury that Davis had bled on his uniform and those of three fellow officers.

 

The remarkable turned inexplicable when Beaird was deposed in a civil case that Davis subsequently brought seeking redress and recompense. 

Schottel figures the courts might take the problems of the Ferguson Police Department as more than de minimis as a result of the protests sparked when an officer shot and killed an unarmed 18-year-old named Michael Brown.

 

“After Mr. Davis was detained, did you have any blood on you?” asked Davis’ lawyer, James Schottel.  

“No, sir,” Beaird replied.

Schottel showed Beaird a copy of the “property damage” complaint.

“Is that your signature as complainant?” the lawyer asked.

“It is, sir,” the cop said.

“And what do you allege that Mr. Davis did unlawfully in this one?” the lawyer asked.

“Transferred blood to my uniform while Davis was resisting,” the cop said.

“And didn’t I ask you earlier in this deposition if Mr. Davis got blood on your uniform?”“You did, sir.”

“And didn’t you respond no?”

“Correct. I did.”

 

Beaird seemed to be either admitting perjury or committing it. The depositions of other officers suggested that the “property damage” charges were not just bizarre, but trumped up.

 

“There was no blood on my uniform,” said Police Officer Christopher Pillarick.

 

And then there was Officer Michael White, the one accused of kicking Davis in the head, an allegation he denies, as his fellow officers deny striking Davis. White had reported suffering a bloody nose in the mayhem.

 

“Did you see Mr. Davis bleeding at all?”  the lawyer, Schottel, asked.

 

“I did not,” White replied.

 

“Did Mr. Davis get any blood on you while you were in the cell?” Schottel asked.

 

“No,” White said.

 

The contradictions between the complaint and the depositions apparently are what prompted the prosecutor to drop the “property damage” allegation. The prosecutor also dropped a felony charge of assault on an officer that had been lodged more than a year after the incident and shortly after Davis filed his civil suit.

 

Davis suggested in his testimony that if the police really thought he had assaulted an officer he would have been charged back when he was jailed.

 

“They would have filed those charges right then and there, because that’s a major felony,” he noted.

 

Indisputable evidence of what transpired in the cell might have been provided by a surveillance camera, but it turned out that the VHS video was recorded at 32 times normal speed.

 

“It was like a blur,” Schottel told The Daily Beast on Wednesday. “You couldn’t see anything.”

 

The blur proved to be from 12 hours after the incident anyway. The cops had saved the wrong footage after Schottel asked them to preserve it.

 

Schottel got another unpleasant surprise when he sought the use-of-force history of the officers involved. He learned that before a new chief took over in 2010 the department had a surprising protocol for non-fatal use-of-force reports.

 

“The officer himself could complete it and give it to the supervisor for his approval,” the prior chief, Thomas Moonier, testified in a deposition. “I would read it. It would be placed in my out basket, and my secretary would probably take it and put it with the case file.”

No copy was made for the officer’s personnel file.

 

“Everything involved in an incident would generally be with the police report,” Moonier said. “I don’t know what they maintain in personnel files.”

 

“Who was in charge of personnel files, of maintaining them?” Schottel asked.

 

“I have no idea,” Moonier said. “I believe City Hall, but I don’t know.”

 

Schottel focused on the date of the incident.

 

“On September 20th, 2009, was there any way to identify any officers that were subject of one or more citizens’ complaints?” he asked.

“Not to my knowledge,” Moonier said.

 

“Was there any way to identify any officers who had completed several use-of-force reports?”

 

“I don’t recall.”

 

But however lax the department’s system and however contradictory the officers’ testimony, a federal magistrate ruled that the apparent perjury about the “property damage” charges was too minor to constitute a violation of due process and that Davis’ injuries were de minimis—too minor to warrant a finding of excessive force. Never mind that a CAT scan taken after the incident confirmed that he had suffered a concussion.

 

Schottel has appealed and expects to argue the case in December. He will contend that perjury is perjury however minor the charge and note that both the NFL and Major League Baseball have learned to consider a concussion a serious injury.

 

Schottel figures the courts might take the problems of the Ferguson Police Department as more than de minimis as a result of the protests sparked when an officer shot and killed an unarmed 18-year-old named Michael Brown on the afternoon of Aug. 9.

 

“Your chances on appeal are going up,” a fellow lawyer told him.

 

At least one witness has said that Brown was shot in the back and then in the chest and head as he turned toward the officer with his hands raised. 

 

“I said, ‘Well, that doesn’t surprise me,’” Schottel told The Daily Beast on Wednesday. “I said I already know about Ferguson, nothing new can faze me about Ferguson.”

 

Schottel has also deposed the new chief, Thomas Jackson, who took over in 2010. Jackson testified that he has instituted a centralized system whereby all complaints lodged against cops by citizens or supervisors go through him and are assigned a number in an internal affairs log. Schottel views Jackson as “not a bad guy,” someone who has been trying to make positive change.

 

“He wants to do right, but it was such a mess,” Schottel said Wednesday.

 

Jackson has seemed less than progressive as he delayed identifying the officer involved in the shooting for fear it would place him and his family in danger. Jackson would only say the officer is white and has been on the job for six years. This means that for his first two and most formative years the officer might have been writing his own force reports and that none of them went into his file. 

“It’s hard to get people to clean things up, especially if they’re used to doing things a certain way,” Schottel said.

 

On Friday, police finally identified the officer as Darren Wilson, who is said to have no disciplinary record, as such records are kept in Ferguson. We already know that he started out at a time when it was accepted for a Ferguson cop to charge somebody with property damage for bleeding on his uniform and later saying there was no blood on him at all.

 

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/08/15/the-day-ferguson-cops-were-caught-in-a-bloody-lie.html

[Jamie_B]

 

This is completely true. And then blamed the cops for the protests. 

 

 

You are still missing the point of why people are protesting. Again...

 

However, in this specific locality the targeting of African-Americans is statistically abnormal. The rate in which they are stopped is much higher than the rate of crimes for their race and locality. That is all I said and it is 100% accurate.

 

 

 

Given that and whether or not the shooting is justified, one can see why the protests came about, the character of Brown doesnt even matter here.

[Jamie_B]

 

What type of man is relevant when trying to consider what story you believe. Do you believe that a man who just attacked a store clerk and reportedly stole cigars was now just casually walking down the street and this vicious police officer, who I have not heard of any other prior issues (although there may have been some), who chose to be a police officer and protect and serve in a community that he already knew was 70% african american, now is just gunning down guys from behind suddenly. 

 

Both stories could be true. It's very possible this guy is a huge racist and just snapped or has a history of it. But when it's a he said he said character has to play a role. 

 

I dont know if I believe Brown or not, I cant ask him. 

 

Brown wouldnt be who we are asking anyway, you have to question the eyewitnesses and if they are creditable. 

 

Hell Brown could have been a member of a local gang or the valedictorian of his high school, the cop could have been a church going saint or a member of the KKK, none of that matters what matters is whether or not the officer was justified in his response. That's all.

[MichaelWeston]

While I believe the action against an unarmed teen is unjust, I find the reaction on both sides is over the top. And for sure, the looting doesn't help the cause. How is your community going to recover if businesses don't want to be in your community?

 

Anyway, here on the local Detroit news we've been getting some pretty good inside reports from our own Charlie LeDuff who was on the ground in Ferguson. He is in his own way a staunch human rights advocator, but even he condemns some of the diminishing of the cause by some of the bad apples who only look to take advantage of the lawless situation. At any rate, his report is definitely worth a look:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rManrSKF3i4&feature=youtu.be

 

That's awesome. Tells all you need to know. 

[|Numbers|]

Listening to ESPN First Take. Conversation concerning Ferguson comes up. Uses the word Murder, not killing, not death, not shooting. Discusses the Washington Redskins players showing solidarity with those in Ferguson by coming out of the tunnel with their hands in the air.

If the amount of peaceful protests, riots, lawlessness, police mishandling / brutality, deceptive media coverage, etc... is this large ? What is going to happen IF or when the police are found innocent of the charge of murder ?

I pray for a peaceful resolution.

[Jamie_B]

I will just say this about the whole Character thing. Browns nor the Cops matter in this case. However what does matter from a societal standpoint is the character of people who are so quick to decide if someone else's life matters. I am disturbed by how quickly some are to throw away anyone's life that is troubling to me.

 

Listening to ESPN First Take. Conversation concerning Ferguson comes up. Uses the word Murder, not killing, not death, not shooting. Discusses the Washington Redskins players showing solidarity with those in Ferguson by coming out of the tunnel with their hands in the air.

If the amount of peaceful protests, riots, lawlessness, police mishandling / brutality, deceptive media coverage, etc... is this large ? What is going to happen IF or when the police are found innocent of the charge of murder ?

I pray for a peaceful resolution.

 

 

You and me both.

[MichaelWeston]

I will just say this about the whole Character thing. Browns nor the Cops matter in this case. However what does matter from a societal standpoint is the character of people who are so quick to decide if someone else's life matters. I am disturbed by how quickly some are to throw away anyone's life that is troubling to me.

 

You know whose life matters most to me. A cop who puts his life on the line every single day to protect my life, and my kids life and my wifes life and your life. You attack or are in the process of attacking a cop I find it hard to defend you. 

[Jamie_B]

 

You know whose life matters most to me. A cop who puts his life on the line every single day to protect my life, and my kids life and my wifes life and your life. You attack or are in the process of attacking a cop I find it hard to defend you. 

 

 

I dont value one person's life higher than another's.

 

However if that's your starting point, it reveals your bias in this discussion. 

[|Tigers Johnson|]

I dont value one person's life higher than another's.
 
However if that's your starting point, it reveals your bias in this discussion.

This tells me you don't have a clue what you are talking about....

You are telling me if someone attacks a cop he should get the benefit of the doubt that he is not going to kill the cop.... And if the cop dies? Tough break kid! You chose the profession?

[BengalBacker]

Regardless of what you believe happened, if you allow for the reasonable possibility that the cop's side of the story could be true, you should denounce the continued looting, protesting, and fanning of the flames, and support letting the justice system work. Actually, even if you don't believe in that possibility you should denounce these things. If this escalates and spreads, it ain't gonna to be pretty and it could be the match that ignites a powder keg that won't be good for any of us. Black, white, left, right, rich or poor.

[Jamie_B]

This tells me you don't have a clue what you are talking about....

You are telling me if someone attacks a cop he should get the benefit of the doubt that he is not going to kill the cop.... And if the cop dies? Tough break kid! You chose the profession?

 

No of course not, I'm talking about on it's head by itself, as the starting point.

 

That's the discussion here because nobody knows what happened outside of eye witnesses people are already assigning higher value to a life irregardless of any facts in the case.

[Jamie_B]

Regardless of what you believe happened, if you allow for the reasonable possibility that the cop's side of the story could be true, you should denounce the continued looting, protesting, and fanning of the flames, and support letting the justice system work. Actually, even if you don't believe in that possibility you should denounce these things. If this escalates and spreads, it ain't gonna to be pretty and it could be the match that ignites a powder keg that won't be good for any of us. Black, white, left, right, rich or poor.

 

I already denounced the looting from the onset, but what's wrong with protesting? That is very much within people's rights.