Who are we going to release?

[|schotzee|]

 
How about cut Geathers and you can still add that player you are talking about.. You guys act like they need to cut these guys for cap room or something.. Geathers is done, he needs to go.  Hall had a down year after Achilles surgery, and maybe he is done, and the coaches will get a handle on that when mini-camps start up, but if he is even close to form you try to keep him because I think he can still play.  Peko is still a good 0/1 tech.. Maybe his legs aren't as fresh as they once were and he may need more bench time (something he was sorely lacking last season) but if Geno returns to form and we can replace Geathers with an actual NFL caliber end I think you will see the DL production back to where it needs to be.

I see your point, but there's the chemistry thing too when replacing more than 1 guy. How often does it happen that a contending team replaces 2 or more guys on one side of the ball and it's successful? May happen a lot, I dunno.

Oops . Sorry Lucid. Meant to quote SF.

[|Lucid|]

I see your point, but there's the chemistry thing too when replacing more than 1 guy. How often does it happen that a contending team replaces 2 or more guys on one side of the ball and it's successful? May happen a lot, I dunno.

 

Now I am confused.. You know that is the exact point I have been trying to make right?

[|schotzee|]

 
Now I am confused.. You know that is the exact point I have been trying to make right?

Yea. I edited that post. :)

[Madieu Superstar]

I see your point, but there's the chemistry thing too when replacing more than 1 guy. How often does it happen that a contending team replaces 2 or more guys on one side of the ball and it's successful? May happen a lot, I dunno.

Oops . Sorry Lucid. Meant to quote SF.

To play devil's advocate, the Patriots overhauled 3/4 of their starting secondary this season and it worked out well. it think both sides of the argument have some elements of truth. Its risky to dramatically overhaul one side of the ball in the off-season. Having said that, IF you replaced those guys with good players, I don't think anyone would be missing their productivity or leadership.

[|Lucid|]

To play devil's advocate, the Patriots overhauled 3/4 of their starting secondary this season and it worked out well. it think both sides of the argument have some elements of truth. Its risky to dramatically overhaul one side of the ball in the off-season. Having said that, IF you replaced those guys with good players, I don't think anyone would be missing their productivity or leadership.

 

They also didn't cut any "core" members of the secondary.. Mostly cutting FA acquisitons from the year before and also-rans. I'm not advocating keeping people that can't play just for leadership, but you can't just discount leadership either, and it's almost never a good idea to cut ALL your top leaders in one season when you are in the middle of a championship window,

 

People have this reaction to want to cut a starter that may not be what he once was, but he also isn't the worst at his position on the team. Why cut the 3rd worse guy if instead you can restructure the salary to match on field production and keep the leadership?

[fredtoast]

Peko can't play. He was a frikking statue the last 4 games of the season.

 

 

We were playing our best rush defense of the season the last four games.  We only gave up about 70 yards per game.

[fredtoast]

I am okay with releasing Geathers.

 

Hall may be overpaid, but we are not going to use that money on any other player, so we keep him around until we see how he looks in OTAs and training camp.

 

We keep Peko.  He is not as bad as many people here claim.  He just needs to play a lot fewer snaps.  

 

Bengals are not shy about releasing big names when they are not playing up to their contracts.  Just ask Willie Anderson, Deltha O'Neal, Rudy Johnson, James Harrison, and many others.

[Khatmandude]

I don't get the angst about Leon Hall.  He's recovering from a horrible achillis injury, same as Geno recovering from his knee injury.   A CB relies on pushing off for initial burst.....when that initial burst isn't as strong as it used to be, you're already trying to catch up to the receiver....meaning he's probably open.  That happened often this year with Leon.  I think he will be very good next year.  He was THE BEST slot CB in all of the NFL in 2013 IMO.  Shut down Randall Cobb and everyone else he was put on that year.  

 

Give the guy a chance.  I don't like his 9mil pricetag either, but if he can play, and the team isn't in cap trouble....who cares what he makes.  It's not my money.  

 

I'd definitely look at getting rid of Geathers, but that's about the only player that I can make a good case for being cut.  Infuse young talent in his spot.  Peko is loved by the coaches and his teammates and along with Whit, is THE leader in the lockerroom.  You don't cut guys like that when you're the Bengals and locker room chemistry is more important maybe than in other places where the culture has been established long ago.  This is still a culture that is being established and is still a bit shaky....definitely not fully stable.  I think Peko brings value in such a situation.  

[Hooky]

Who are we going to release, then re-sign after nobody picks them up?

[F.Cleveland]

If they can get another player that upgrades any position, they should do it.  You don't just cut players without signing new ones first unless you need cap room and they clearly do not right this moment.  Leon has been good for quite a while and you guys act like if they say they want to restructure he has no choice. 

 

You evaluate your roster, figure out what contracts you are willing to part with for an upgrade player for player and big picture overall.  Free agents have to agree to be Bengals before you let go of anyone who isn't easilly replaceable.  It doesn't mean you cant have those cuts in mind while shopping, but its stupid to just cut people when you have to spend to the cap just because internet trolls have determined that a player sucks for the billionth time.

[scharm]

With 30+ mil in cap room I'm not in a rush to cut anybody just to cut them.

 

1. If they have cap implications like roster bonuses coming up  or

2. If I sign enough free agents I need cap room

3. Know the player is done.

 

 

No point in cutting Leon Hall making him available at the begining of FA.

 

 

It's stupid to cut players when you have the luxury of the cap room.  

[PatternMaster]

I don't get the angst about Leon Hall.  He's recovering from a horrible achillis injury, same as Geno recovering from his knee injury.   A CB relies on pushing off for initial burst.....when that initial burst isn't as strong as it used to be, you're already trying to catch up to the receiver....meaning he's probably open.  That happened often this year with Leon.  I think he will be very good next year.  He was THE BEST slot CB in all of the NFL in 2013 IMO.  Shut down Randall Cobb and everyone else he was put on that year.  

 

Give the guy a chance.  I don't like his 9mil pricetag either, but if he can play, and the team isn't in cap trouble....who cares what he makes.  It's not my money.  

 

I'd definitely look at getting rid of Geathers, but that's about the only player that I can make a good case for being cut.  Infuse young talent in his spot.  Peko is loved by the coaches and his teammates and along with Whit, is THE leader in the lockerroom.  You don't cut guys like that when you're the Bengals and locker room chemistry is more important maybe than in other places where the culture has been established long ago.  This is still a culture that is being established and is still a bit shaky....definitely not fully stable.  I think Peko brings value in such a situation.  

 

The reason why I would say cut Hall over someone like Geno is because he's not as good as Geno and you can save over 7 million dollars by releasing him. Hall is a solid vet, but he's on the downward slope of his career and he's grossly over paid for what he brings to the table. Same for Peko, sure he's a great guy but he's not very good and the money could be spent elsewhere on better, younger talent. 

[scharm]

Supposedly Geathers and Little have been released.

[sparky151]

Wait.. So the plan is to cut all 3 of the biggest leaders on the defensive side of the ball at the same time.. And replace them with free-agents? Whom we have no idea how well they will actually mesh with our scheme and in the locker room, let alone what kind of leadership they will bring if any..

 

Right in the middle of our championship window?

 

Yeah, that doesn't sound like a very good idea to me.

 

Maybe the problem with the defense is taking leadership from guys who don't play well? We have better players who have been here a few years and set a better example. Think Geno, Dunlap, Burfict, Nelson. We should cut Peko and Geathers and ask Leon to take a paycut.

[SocalBengalEd]

Yep. The Bengals have finally released Geathers.  Maybe some of us do know what we are talking about. 

[|Lucid|]

 

Maybe the problem with the defense is taking leadership from guys who don't play well? We have better players who have been here a few years and set a better example. Think Geno, Dunlap, Burfict, Nelson. We should cut Peko and Geathers and ask Leon to take a paycut.

 

That bolded part makes no sense to me. You can't just assign leadership roles to who you think they should be. Leaders develop naturally. It's a process of guys stepping up and the others listening.  Leadership isn't setting examples about stats on the field. It's about doing shit the right way. From practice to taking care of your body to how to behave off the field. Leaders get guys to invest, and behave like a pro. LB's aren't trying to emulate Peko's play, or learn his swim moves. They are however taught how to be pros and what is expected of them from the team and how to go about their business.

 

The problem with this defense is either the loss of it's coordinator, attrition or a combination of the two. Blaming the club leadership (which by all accounts is exceptionally strong) is just about last on the list.

Yep. The Bengals have finally released Geathers.  Maybe some of us do know what we are talking about. 

 

Who argued to keep Geathers? I think the correct statement is that even blind grandmothers knew this was coming..

[|kennethmw|]

Yep. The Bengals have finally released Geathers.  Maybe some of us do know what we are talking about. 

 

Or maybe not.  Crow when they cut Leon, not Geathers whose mom even thought should be cut.

[alleycat]

I don't think Sparky's point is laughable at all.  When you keep guys who underperform on a team because they are leaders, you are sending an implicit message to your team that being a good guy is more important than being a great player.  I'm not saying you can't have "leaders" all over the roster, but you better hope that your leaders are also your better players. 

 

IMO, I haven't seen this team rally around a player on the field as much as Burfict. He's clearly an all-pro and has the attitude and take charge quality that charges that defense in way that I've never seen from quiet man Geathers, for instance.

[SnickyCat]

Geathers was a solid player for a long time but that time has passed. This is a good cut, no doubt.

I was never a fan of the Little signing though I did at the time understand that desperate times call for desperate measures. The fact that he played only 4 snaps in the playoff game when we were majorly hurting at WR (while a 3rd string RB and a practice squad player logged plenty of snaps there) said all I need to know. Not shocked or sad he is gone at all.

[scharm]

Geathers saves them about 3 mil cap space.

[|Lucid|]

I don't think Sparky's point is laughable at all.  When you keep guys who underperform on a team because they are leaders, you are sending an implicit message to your team that being a good guy is more important than being a great player.  I'm not saying you can't have "leaders" all over the roster, but you better hope that your leaders are also your better players. 

 

IMO, I haven't seen this team rally around a player on the field as much as Burfict. He's clearly an all-pro and has the attitude and take charge quality that charges that defense in way that I've never seen from quiet man Geathers, for instance.

 

First of all, it isn't slightly a given that you are right about Peko and Hall being players who under perform. And even if that's the case I seriously doubt that is the opinion of their team mates.  Hall was recovering from an Achilles injury. The year before that he was one of the better players at his position in the NFL. You think the rest of the team is looking at Leon and thinks he is some scrub who is getting by because he's a nice guy?  Bull shit. Same with Peko. For years people on here have bashed the dude as a below average tackle because he doesn't have stats to say otherwise. Basically showing a complete non understanding of the role of 0/1 technique, all the while Zimmer is telling the world he thinks Peko is one of the best nose tackles in football and the best DT he has ever coached.

 

I know what is coming next.. Someone is going to have the audacity to say Zimmer sugar coats shit.  Now that is laughable. One of the straightest shooters you'll ever meet, you can bet if he said it he thinks it. Does that mean it's true? Maybe not, but I am pretty confident the opposite isn't. Peko is getting older and was asked to fill too many snaps last season on top of regression from the rest of the line and defense on the whole.

 

I would bet you dollars to doughnuts that the dudes in that club house don't see those two guys as anything but fantastic football players and respected men worthy of emulation in the way they carry themselves.

[SocalBengalEd]

 

Or maybe not.  Crow when they cut Leon, not Geathers whose mom even thought should be cut.

 

 

 

I'm all for cutting Geathers 4 years to late imo. But I think Hall should be better this year a year removed from Achilles surgery.  He's a stud when healthy so one down year and I'm not gonna jump the gun yet.  Peko on the other hand needs a pay cut. His production is not worth his salary. 

[|schotzee|]

Go is gonna flip shit when he hears Geathers was cut.

[alleycat]

 

First of all, it isn't slightly a given that you are right about Peko and Hall being players who under perform. And even if that's the case I seriously doubt that is the opinion of their team mates.  Hall was recovering from an Achilles injury. The year before that he was one of the better players at his position in the NFL. You think the rest of the team is looking at Leon and thinks he is some scrub who is getting by because he's a nice guy?  Bull shit. Same with Peko. For years people on here have bashed the dude as a below average tackle because he doesn't have stats to say otherwise. Basically showing a complete non understanding of the role of 0/1 technique, all the while Zimmer is telling the world he thinks Peko is one of the best nose tackles in football and the best DT he has ever coached.

Wow, that's a mountain of reading into what I've said that you've done for yourself there.

 

So let's go down the list. 

 

Kyle freaking Cook was a stalwart and all of that until he was unceremoniously dropped before last season.  I don't know need anything other than my eyes to know how Peko performs.  And I know perfectly well what the 0/1 tech's job and responsibilities are. And the main evidence I have is how awesome he is in those very few games where he's really turned on, where he's really emotionally charged and involved.  On fire.  And then he's suddenly more stout in the lane, he chases runners down, he even blows lineman back. Would be great if we could get that from him consistently, but we don't.  Too often, we get the opposite of those things. I also have the benefit of seeing other 0/1s playing in the league who simply out-perform Peko (not in stats, but in the nitty gritty things they do) that he stands out for being underwhelming. I expect more out of a team leader and guy who's getting paid like a premier DT in the league (not geno level premier, but premier nonetheless).

 

As for Leon, I don't disagree with you, which might realize if you stop putting your words in my mouth. But the fact is, when a guy is on the wrong side of thirty and coming back from a pedestrian season AFTER his second ACL tear, well, I just don't think he should be paid 9-10 million.  I love Leon, and would love to keep him here for so many reasons.  I just think he's quite overpaid as it is.

 

 

I would bet you dollars to doughnuts that the dudes in that club house don't see those two guys as anything but fantastic football players and respected men worthy of emulation in the way they carry themselves.

 

 

They felt the same way about Geathers.  In fact, Marvin just said it.  And look where he is now: on the street.  Because he wasn't cutting it.  

 

Leadership is awesome.  Playing like a premier player when you are paid that way is better.

[|Lucid|]

Wow, that's a mountain of reading into what I've said that you've done for yourself there.

 

So let's go down the list. 

 

Kyle freaking Cook was a stalwart and all of that until he was unceremoniously dropped before last season.  I don't know need anything other than my eyes to know how Peko performs.  And I know perfectly well what the 0/1 tech's job and responsibilities are. And the main evidence I have is how awesome he is in those very few games where he's really turned on, where he's really emotionally charged and involved.  On fire.  And then he's suddenly more stout in the lane, he chases runners down, he even blows lineman back. Would be great if we could get that from him consistently, but we don't.  Too often, we get the opposite of those things. I also have the benefit of seeing other 0/1s playing in the league who simply out-perform Peko (not in stats, but in the nitty gritty things they do) that he stands out for being underwhelming. I expect more out of a team leader and guy who's getting paid like a premier DT in the league (not geno level premier, but premier nonetheless).

 

As for Leon, I don't disagree with you, which might realize if you stop putting your words in my mouth. But the fact is, when a guy is on the wrong side of thirty and coming back from a pedestrian season AFTER his second ACL tear, well, I just don't think he should be paid 9-10 million.  I love Leon, and would love to keep him here for so many reasons.  I just think he's quite overpaid as it is.

 

 

 

 

They felt the same way about Geathers.  In fact, Marvin just said it.  And look where he is now: on the street.  Because he wasn't cutting it.  

 

Leadership is awesome.  Playing like a premier player when you are paid that way is better.

 

Right.. Because he isn't cutting it... I know you will probably roll your eyes, but I simply have to give Zim's praise more weight than your eyes. And regardless, Peko is not payed like a premium player. This year he is set to make around 3MM. And once again, I have said I think Leon should renegotiate his salary.

 

Kyle Cook was never a "Stalwart".  He was a servicable center on a decent line. Never did his coaches call him one of the best in the league at his position, nor did the players look to him for leadership.  I would agree that we need to transition Peko to a rotational role, which I have said several times at this point, but no way in hell do I think we should cut him.